Baptism ?
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And is it only the RCC rules that apply, or does baptism by any 'johnny come lately' church count?
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Since you mentioned it... Heres the 'rcc rule' that applies..
Who can Baptize?
1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon. In case of necessity, any person, even someone not baptized, can baptize, if he has the required intention. the intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes, and to apply the Trinitarian baptismal formula. the Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation
There are many who claim that when the Lord said "born of water and of the Spirit" He was speaking about Christian baptism.
But when we study the New Testament, we discover that water is also a metaphor for the Word of God, and in this case the Gospel (which is the power of God unto salvation). So this "water" is the Gospel, since sinners are regenerated BEFORE they are baptized.
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. (1 Peter 1)
water precedes spirit or more exactly they must be together - devils believe but refuse to be baptized - twinc
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If you accept the fact that "water" means the Gospel, then yes. However, if you think water means the water of baptism, then no.
Truth
Well-Known Member
Well, I disagree, being this is the Day of Pentecost, I will use what Peter said to the Jews in the Temple after the Holy Spirit was given, and every one heard the words in their own dialect! After Peter spoke about the arrest and death of Christ by the Hands of the people. Acts 2:36-38
36- "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Yeshua [Jesus] whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
37- Now when they heard this, they were cut to the Heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the Apostles , "Men and Brethren what shall we do?"
38- Then Peter said to them, Repent, and let every one of You be Baptized in the name of Yeshua [Jesus] for the Remission of Sins; and you shall receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit!
Yes the Calendar that the world uses shows that Shavot, or Pentecost was last week, BUT that is done through Rabbinic tradition, they changed from Gods Calendar in the 3rd Century to a Mathematical Calculated calendar, so as they could be off by a month!
Why are you disagreeing with Peter, who wrote by divine inspiration (Q).
He preached the Gospel on the Day of Pentecost, and it became the seed of the New Birth for about 3,000 Jews. It is only after they "gladly received" the Word of God that they were born again by the power of the Holy Spirit, who was given to them as a gift. So it is the combined effect of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit which produces the New Birth. Not water baptism.
Harvest 1874
Well-Known Member
You are correct, the Lord was not speaking here in John 3:5 of literal water, he was speaking of the "water of truth", unless you are begotten of the truth and the spirit you shall not enter the kingdom of God. We see then that symbolical water represents truth, and that our begetting of the holy Spirit is said to be a begetting "through the Word of truth." (James 1:18) One cannot be begotten by error, thus the importance of the study of God's word that we know what is the truth.
Our Lord here in John 3:5 was speaking to Nicodemus a jew and as such he was speaking to the Jewish nation alone.
"The Jewish nation was a consecrated nation, a covenant people. They were all baptized into Moses in the sea and in the cloud when they left Egypt. God accepted them in Moses, the mediator of their covenant at Mt. Sinai but, at the time Jesus was speaking, they had forgotten their covenant, some were openly living as publicans and sinners, and many others were self-righteous hypocrites. John's ministry, therefore, was repentance and baptism for the
remission of sins--a return to God and to a recognition of the repentance and reformation of heart and life.
Nicodemus was a Jew, and no Jew could become a follower of the Lord Jesus and enter into the kingdom, until first of all he had experienced this reformation and had been baptized, "born of water," in addition to this there must be the begetting of the spirit, and then in the resurrection, the birth to the spirit nature--"born of the spirit." Only those who experience this complete reformation of heart and mind, and who are "changed" in the resurrection, will ever enter into the kingdom of God."
"Verily, verily I say unto thee, except a man be born of water (experience a reformation of heart and life), and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God." (John 3:5.)
"Not by works, of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, AND renewing of the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5.)
Truth
Well-Known Member
No, you did not Quote Peter completely, REPENT and BE BAPTIZED in the NAME. Are you aware that Baptism was nothing New to the Hebrew people, there were many pool,s on the Temple Mount, just for immersion, it was common for Jews to be Mikvaed for there transgressions, so as their sin would wash away down stream. This is why the Pharisees sent out other Priest to Question John at the Jordan, he was mikvaing or Baptizing people in the wilderness, when there were Hundreds of pools within the city and the Mount, as Our said Savior to John, let it be so to fulfill Righteousness. It was only after they received Peter's rebuke for the death of Christ that they Repented!
And Peter was not suggesting that the water of baptism washes away sins, or produces the New Birth, or results in the giving of the Holy Spirit. What he was teaching is that those who received the gift of the Holy Spirit must be baptized immediately. And so they were. But the fact that the gift of the Holy Spirit is given BEFORE water baptism is clear from Acts 10.
Truth
Well-Known Member
In Acts 10, Peter had received a Vision, then went with the men that called for Him, They were Gentile's. It was forbidden for Peter to even enter the home of Cornelius READ 10: 28, being He was a Jew, so after hearing the Gospel, the Holy Spirit was given, only because Peter would not have Baptized them, after they received the Spirit Peter said, 47: "Can anyone Forbid water, that these should be Baptized who have received the Holy Spirit.
And this is the point that is is being established. First the gift of the Holy Spirit (who regenerates the believing sinner and produces the New Birth) then water baptism.
Truth
Well-Known Member
It seams to me that your training has been by taking scripture out of context, Peter states repent and be baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, for the promise is to you and to your children, and to all that are afar off, ect,ect,ect. So because the Gentiles received the spirit before they were baptized, Now it has Changed, New Formula.
I suppose the vision Peter had was all about food, Right!!
Acts 8:35-39 -35- Then Phillip opened His mouth, and beginning at this scripture, preached Jesus to Him. [the Eunuch]
36- Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the Eunuch said, See [here is] Water. What hinders me from being baptized?
37- Then Phillip said, If you believe with all your Heart, you may' And the Eunuch answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. { Confession}
38- So he commanded the Chariot to stand still. And both Phillip and the Eunuch went down into the Water, and He [Phillip] baptized Him [ the Eunuch]
39- Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Phillip away, so that the Eunuch saw Him [Phillip]no more; and the Eunuch went on his way rejoicing.
Where is the Formula, no mention of the receiving of the Spirit, before and or after????
so why did the Eunuch need to be baptized and not the thief on the cross - btw it seems it is not at all easy, for adults to believe or repent as it is for children - twinc
The Bible says this: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Rom 10:9,10).
So when the eunuch made his confession of faith, he was saved. He also said: "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God". And that is when he was born again: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12,13)
Since to be "born again" is also to be "born of the Spirit", he received the gift of the Holy Spirit at that very moment: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Tit 3:5-7)
So I trust you see how everything ties together, and since this man received the gift of the Holy Ghost, he was baptized immediately.
Truth
Well-Known Member
That's is a rely good Question, All I know is that the Apostles were Commanded to Teach, what They were Taught, and Baptize every one that believed, and receive the Holy Spirit! As for the thief, The Master was hanging right there with the Thief. The Living Word hanging there knew the Heart of the Thief, so as to pass His Judgment concerning the Thief, So the Righteous Judge, Gave the Thief a White Stone, and Granted Him Paradise!! Also that would put an end to the Practice of Baptizing in Proxy for the Dead, How would you baptize a dead Thief??
Truth
Well-Known Member
I GET IT, I was responding to some one else that pretty much believes, that there is an Order, or Formula which we must Follow, But Thanks for your Input. Be Blessed
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