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Baptismal Regeneration

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by GracePeace, Jun 12, 2021.

  1. GracePeace

    GracePeace Well-Known Member

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    I did engage by shooting the whole argument down with one easy verse. "Work smarter not harder." :)

    Why draw a distinction between what is necessary for others versus ourselves? Isn't being productive in the knowledge of the Lord necessary for salvation?
     
  2. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    "Baptismal regeneration" needs to first be defined since it means different things to different people.

    "Is the doctrine of “baptismal regeneration” scriptural? In order to answer such a question, one first must define precisely what he means by that designation.

    Exactly what is “baptismal regeneration”? The phrase connotes different things to different people. For some, the expression is merely a bit of inflammatory rhetoric designed to intimidate those who affirm that baptism is a part of the regeneration process. To others, it is the notion that baptism is a “sacrament” which has a sort of mysterious, innate power to remove the contamination of sin — independent of personal faith and a volitional submission to God’s plan of redemption
    ."
    What Is Baptismal Regeneration?

    Post #24 you posted "This isn't about Catholicism (it isn't only Catholics who believe in it)."

    I'm neither Catholic or Protestant, but I see that the Bible teaches the necessity of water baptism but I do not believe with Catholics (or some Protestants) view (such as infant baptism) on water baptism (as seen in the link I provided) therefore I see a need for 'baptismal regeneration" to be defined.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022
  3. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    As others have shown, I believe Apostle Peter nailed it here...

    1 Peter 3:21
    21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    KJV

    Lord Jesus set the example of water baptism for us, so I see that to mean we are to do it if we are able (some aren't able if they believe at the last, like the malefactor crucified with Jesus, someone on their deathbed, etc. But for those able, we have no excuse not to do it.)

    It is to symbolize, outwardly, publically, our Faith on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ, and His death and resurrection.

    So what is the difference between someone who believes only, but doesn't pronounce that Faith publically through water baptism? One could get baptized in secret if they wanted, but what's the difference later if that one wants to associate with other baptized believers? What are those who believe only showing God? doubt maybe?

    Thus I see getting baptized as an act like Apostle Peter said, "the answer of a good conscience toward God", not toward man, but toward God. We show Him that we are ready to serve Him and His Son, and claiming His Mark upon us.
     
  4. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    Great attitude. Sometimes it helps to sit and wait for more info. When we pray, God always hears. Baptismal Regeneration simply indicates the general Christian belief that Water Baptism has an essential place in working out our Salvation. Personally, I wouldn't call it an "essential place," but rather, an "important place." I don't believe that Water Baptism, as a ritual, is an essential "Work" in qualifying for or obtaining Salvation, since Christ's Work alone provided for our redemption.

    But we must certainly accept Christ and his Work on our behalf. In doing so, we publicly show our repentance by getting Water Baptized. This is both a public testimony and an outward expression of our repentance before God.

    How important Water Baptism is in the process of Working out our Salvation is up to you. I recently got booted off of another forum for just suggesting that Water Baptism isn't necessary for Salvation, or for saying the older traditions did not believe that.

    In other words, I said that older traditions did not believe Baptismal Regeneration provides for our Salvation. And I would stick by that: the older Christian traditions did not believe Baptismal Regeneration earned our Salvation. Pelagianism was rejected.

    The big problem between Catholics and Protestants is, I believe, confusion over the definition of "works." Protestants view "works" technically as works done apart from Christ to obtain Christ. Catholics view works as the acts of free human beings who solicit Christ and act in Christ. Different definitions obviously produce confusion, division, and a host of conflicting views.
     
  5. GRACE ambassador

    GRACE ambassador Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree. Exactly why I asked the question:

    Does God Require His OT "ritual" of water baptism,
    for us, Today, Under HIS PURE GRACE?
    "Divider" Poll

    Thus, is God's Doctrine of ONE Baptism (1Co 12:13), For
    Today, His Answer,
    to settle all the confusion?: 13 Bible baptisms

    Instead of Confusion, how about

    Peace?
     
  6. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but then we get into the meaning of the word "necessary" that is used in the quote. Necessary for Salvation: in what way? Is it necessary to obey God in Baptism not because it saves us but because Jesus requires it? Or, is it part of our atonement?

    I cannot believe that any Christian should think we can self-atone, ie think that by getting baptized in water we save ourselves? So I believe the idea is that in getting baptized in obedience to Jesus we show that we are cooperating with him in doing what baptism represents, namely repentance from sin.
     
  7. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    This is obviously a very sensitive issue since I just got booted off of a specific forum for recommending my own opinions. To be completely clear about it, this particular forum was designed to accommodate various Christian traditions. But I agree--peace comes from relying on God's grace.

    Following rituals just shows that we are doing that, namely relying on God's grace. Whether we need to do baptism today is up to the individual. I personally think that since it's a long-standing tradition, it should be done if for no other reason than it is expected of us. But I was raised up in the faith, and baptized as a baby.

    Seems sort of ridiculous to get rebaptized as a young adult, simply to fulfill the requirements of tradition? But I did get rebaptized to satisfy myself and the friends who believed that.

    In my own personal view, the important thing is to make a clear break from paganism if we convert to Christianity. And we should be public about it. That can happen through Water Baptism. It can happen on a cross besides Jesus, just speaking in a public forum. That's where the thief on the cross was when he turned to Jesus for paradise.
     
  8. TEXBOW

    TEXBOW Well-Known Member

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    Excellent post.
     
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  9. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    There is one baptism and one salvation, both relating to our identifying with Jesus in his death. Water Baptism symbolizes this. It is a public testimony that we have *already* given ourselves to Jesus, to die to our flesh and to live for his Spirit. One baptism, symbolized by water baptism.
     
  10. TEXBOW

    TEXBOW Well-Known Member

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    REALLY. Mungo, upon, within really?
     
  11. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    It's why I believe terms as 'baptismal regeneration" should be defined. Even the term 'water baptism' is sometimes defined incorrectly. For example, some of those who are against the necessity of water baptism in becoming saved will define water baptism in a way the Bible does not define baptism.....they are employing an ad hominem or poisoning the well type technique. For example, they wrongly define baptism as a work one does in an attempt to earn/merit salvation. Then those who defend the necessity of baptism in being saved will falsely be accused of teaching a "works based salvation" based upon that false definition even though the Bible never defines baptism as a work man does to earn/merit salvation. Being water baptized is obedience in doing God's will and obeying God's will is never defined as a "work based salvation" earning/meriting salvation.

    Though I believe and clearly see that the Bible does teach water baptism is essential in order to be saved, but NOT for the same reasons as others. Hence I do not believe in infant baptism because water baptism is for those who have sinned, who are capable of believing and who willfully submit themselves to baptism. There is no efficacy about the water, water cannot cleanse away sin. It is one's act in obeying God's will that God does the work of removing the sin, water does nothing. As the water had no ability to cleanse Naaman of his disease, for it was God who cleansed his disease due to Naaman's obedience in dipping 7 times in the Jordan River as directed by God. And Naaman's obedience in dipping as directed by God did not earn/merit his cleansing but was simply a prerequisite God placed upon His free gift in healing Naaman's disease. So his dipping cannot be correctly defined as a "work based healing" where he merited/earned God's gift just as baptism can never be correctly defined as a work man does to earn/merit salvation.

    I do not find in the Bible where water baptism is defined as "a public testimony that we have *already* given ourselves to Jesus". I do find in the Bible that one has not accepted the gospel and one is not of Christ unless, until one has first been water baptized.
    Therefore terms must be defined in a correct way according to the Bible.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
  12. TEXBOW

    TEXBOW Well-Known Member

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    Naaman is one example. Abraham is another. Abraham obtained righteousness by his faith. How was his faith observed? By being obedient to God. Water baptism, dipping seven times, placing your son on a rock for a sacrifice are examples and evidence of our faith. Faith without obedience is not true faith. In short Abraham still had to execute Gods plan, even though God stopped Abraham at the last minute his action was evidence of his true faith. Abraham truly believed that God would raise his son from the death he was about to administer. Abraham still needed to father another son. Our obedience is evidence of our true faith but not the means of salvation.
     
  13. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    There are many Bible examples where receiving God's free gift was first conditional upon obedience then after one obeyed he received the free gift yet the obedience earned nothing:

    1) Naaman's obedience in dipping was necessary/essential to receive the free gift of healing
    2) Israel's marching around Jericho as God required was necessary/essential to receive the free gift of that city
    3) Noah's building the ark was necessary/essential to receive the free gift of being saved from the flood
    4) the blind man washing his eyes in the pool was necessary/essential to receive the free gift of sight
    5) repentance and baptism was necessary/essential to receive the free gift of remission of sins

    None obeyed BECAUSE they already possessed the free gift, but obeyed IN ORDER to receive the free gift.

    Meeting the prerequisite on a free gift has to first be done before receiving the free gift and without obedience the free gift cannot be received. So reception of the free gift, (whether that free gift is salvation, healing, a city) is not possible apart from obedience.
    No verse puts receiving the free gift BEFORE obedience but obedience must come first and does not, cannot earn the free gift as seen in each case above....none unconditionally received the free gift first and then later obeyed. Abraham would never been justified (Genesis 22:12 cf James 2:21) if had not obeyed in Genesis 12:1 and refused to move from his house, land, kindred...he first had to obey....no justification apart from obedience.
     
  14. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    water baptism is not required to be saved.

    water baptism is something that is a symbolic gesture regarding your faith in Christ, exactly as eating the bread and taking the wine is symbolic of the body and blood of the Savior.

    Many deceived people believe that water has magic power, and a cookie and a cup of juice turns into the body and blood of Jesus upon priestly command.

    There are 2 main groups that teach that water has the magic power of salvation in it...., and this would be the "cult of Mary" (Catholic Church) and the Jehovah's Witness group.
     
  15. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Baptismal regeneration was defined a long time ago -- back in the 2nd century. But if you want the actual doctrine, kindly go to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC).
    VII. The Grace of Baptism
    1262 The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental rite. Immersion in water symbolizes not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal. Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.64...

    "A new creature"
    1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte "a new creature," an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature,"68 member of Christ and coheir with him,69 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.70


    Note: This understanding of baptism gives to water the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit. But supernatural regeneration is by the power of the Spirit. The sinner is (a) born from above, (b) born again, (c) born of God, and (d) born of the Spirit.
     
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  16. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    This is "spiritual baptism".....not water baptism.

    Water can't forgive sin.
    Water didnt die on the Cross.
    Water isn't the Holy Spirit.

    So, when you try to replace the Holy Spirit with Water, you are blaspheming the Holy Spirit and denying the Blood of Jesus.
    Be wary of any Satanic Cult that tries to replace the Holy Spirit's work with "water" "Water Baptism".
     
  17. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    The Catechism is speaking about water baptism, and I have already clarified the subject. The Catholic church believes in baptismal regeneration.
     
  18. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    Jesus isn't a Catholic, and neither is Father God.

    "Baptismal regeneration" is taken from the Douay Rheims, version.
    Its a Satanic masterpiece.
    One of the devil's finest verses he ever twisted that is in this version says.....that people are "born again by/of water".

    See that? "BORN AGAIN"" BY...or OF WATER.

    Why is this a satanic lie.. that is found in that "bible", and taught by the water cults?
    Its because Its God's Holy Spirit that causes the new birth, "spiritual regeneration"....not water.

    Water is just water. So, when a cult replaces the Holy Spirit's work, with water, then this cult has replaced the HOLY SPIRIT .. in the redemption process, and Satan is well pleased.
     
  19. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Why are you off on a nonsensical rant? Who said "Jesus is a Catholic"? While I am trying to clarify the issue, all you are doing -- as usual -- is sowing seeds of spiritual confusion.
     
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  20. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    There are no Catholics in Heaven.
    Only believers, in Yeshua.

    So, as i was showing you....You are caught in a deception. You have been led to believe by the "cult of Mary" that Water is the source of the born again experience.
    That WATER, has the power of regeneration... and this is the Satanic Lie that you have been led to believe.
    And as you sit there, if you just use your common sense, you would be able to see that this is CRAZY.
    You would be able to realize that the dying Thief on the Cross, was not water baptized.
    If you just use a little logic, without the haze of cultic teaching blinding you, you would realize that its the BLOOD of Jesus and not the water that forgives sins.

    Water, is not the savior.
    Water did not die on the Cross.
    Water, is just water. It has no spiritual power.

    And when your priest, talks to you about this, and says to you...>"look over here......it says....>"Noah and His family were saved by WATER"..
    See that one?
    That is a favorite of the "cult of Mary"......The Priest's love to try to blind you with that verse... so, when they do try it.....you tell them..

    "Listen, had Noah and his Family gotten out of the ARK, and into the WATER, they would have DROWNED, DIED".

    See that?
    Your priest does not. Your Pope will never... Such is the power of Satan to blind the mind.
    But dont let that keep you from waking up out of the spiritual blindness.
     
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