Bashing Protestants/Bashing Catholics

[Rex]

you brought up my name rex so i am going to comment. i believe all Trinitarian, Bible believing people, who have a relationship with Christ are part of His Body. you are the person that is constantly trying to exclude Catholics from the Body through a distortion of the Catechism, despite correction by Selene, me, Hammerstone, and Rach. You have a history of following me across the board and trying to discredit my posts by bringing up denominational differences, which end up derailing the thread. all of this aside, the tone of your posts drip with contempt and righteous indignation - your self proclaimed mission is to root out the rotten Catholics maqurading as Christians. not only are you tilting at windmills, your friut is hatred, not love. There are difference within Catholic and Protestant doctrine and both sides believe they are right - unfortunately you are making the differences much bigger than they realing are through all means possible - stop it.

The two post I commented behind you after you referred to, and directed negative comments at the protestant faith.
And I'm a bad person for posting dogma and the catechism behind them?
This is starting to sound like the gay movement, it's ok to bash Christians "protestants" If your gay "catholic", but it's considered hate if Christians speak against gays "catholics".

Your protestant remarks to which I replied
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18682-why-do-people-lose-their-religion/page-2#entry204575
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18696-take-church-to-people/#entry204579

I beg to differ it was you that brought up denominational differences, and My reply to Selene about the ark was also based in her denominational teaching. which equals-->> Mary is the ark of God the church.
See the post today
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18696-take-church-to-people/#entry204709

 

[Mungo]

And I'm a bad person for posting dogma and the catechism behind them?

But you don't do that. You switch your argument midstream.

You stated
“The Roman Catholic Church doesn't recognize any salvation other than imperfect outside of it's membership…” (post #6).

You then justified this by quoting (post #10) the Catechism
Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."

Imperfect communion with the Catholic Church does not equate to imperfect salvation.

That's a lousy way to argue.

 

[Rex]

But you don't do that. You switch your argument midstream.

You stated
“The Roman Catholic Church doesn't recognize any salvation other than imperfect outside of it's membership…” (post #6).

You then justified this by quoting (post #10) the Catechism
Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."

Imperfect communion with the Catholic Church does not equate to imperfect salvation.

That's a lousy way to argue.

I edited my post so perhaps you now understand it's in reply to Aspens comments

 

[Mungo]

I edited my post so perhaps you now understand it's in reply to Aspens comments

The edited post changes nothing and how was either comment directed to Aspen?

Before Post #10 Aspen made two comments

"similarities are good to focus on."

"I like your website, David."

Neither of them in response to you.

Regardless of what you believe I can clearly read, and If the church is truly based on Christ why do I read this.
The church is Mary, and the high office is Peter, in all of this just where is the foundation laid, I don't see Jesus name anywhere do you?

Of course you can snip a sentence out of the Catechism that doesn't have Christ or, Jesus, or Lord in it.

If you look at the whole context though you will see Jesus is the key to understanding what is said.

Paragraph 829 which you quoted comes in a section II The Church is Holy..

Take the first two paragraphs of that section:
823 "The Church . . . is held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy. This is because Christ, the Son of God, who with the Father and the Spirit is hailed as 'alone holy,' loved the Church as his Bride, giving himself up for her so as to sanctify her; he joined her to himself as his body and endowed her with the gift of the Holy Spirit for the glory of God." The Church, then, is "the holy People of God," and her members are called "saints."

824 United with Christ, the Church is sanctified by him; through him and with him she becomes sanctifying. "All the activities of the Church are directed, as toward their end, to the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God." It is in the Church that "the fullness of the means of salvation" has been deposited. It is in her that "by the grace of God we acquire holiness."
my emboldening

 

[horsecamp]

Zwingli the Swiss reformer said Lutherans are to catholic to be considered protestant..

what do you have to do to be saved?-----------Jesus has already saved every one. by his perfect work alone.


May God make the unwilling willing to believe this so they can receive all the benefits Christ has already won for them..

got questions for God get his answers.

www.whataboutJesus.com




just wanted to invite everyone there will be a special worship service at chapel of the Christ. July 29

you can watch it from home -------- A INSIDE VIEW OF THIS BEAUTIFUL CHAPEL COMES ON WHEN YOU GO TO www.wels..net

 

[Rex]

Of course you can snip a sentence out of the Catechism that doesn't have Christ or, Jesus, or Lord in it.

If you look at the whole context though you will see Jesus is the key to understanding what is said.

Paragraph 829 which you quoted comes in a section II The Church is Holy..

Take the first two paragraphs of that section:
823 "The Church . . . is held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy. This is because Christ, the Son of God, who with the Father and the Spirit is hailed as 'alone holy,' loved the Church as his Bride, giving himself up for her so as to sanctify her; he joined her to himself as his body and endowed her with the gift of the Holy Spirit for the glory of God." The Church, then, is "the holy People of God," and her members are called "saints."

824 United with Christ, the Church is sanctified by him; through him and with him she becomes sanctifying. "All the activities of the Church are directed, as toward their end, to the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God." It is in the Church that "the fullness of the means of salvation" has been deposited. It is in her that "by the grace of God we acquire holiness."
my emboldening

I already went there this with Selene this morning and provided a link above, but just the same I'll post it here

The Catechism says that there is no salvation outside the Church, and the Church is defined as the entire body of Christ. The Catechism did NOT say that there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church. When we say the "Church" what makes you think that we are speaking only of the RCC especially when the Catechism already stated that the RCC joins herself together with other Christians despite that they are not in perfect communion with the Pope?

And what is outside the Church, Rex?? Buddhism, Hinduism, Atheism, Shintoism, Wicca, etc. Do you believe that salvation is found in any of these things, which are indeed outside the Church.

I think you had better read the fine print Selene
Notice the red Christ is the unity of the church which is Mary
Again the catechism disagrees with your statement, the Church is defined as the entire body of Christ.
It's defined as Mary --->> a mystery

813 The Church is one because of her source: "the highest exemplar and source of this mystery is the unity, in the Trinity of Persons, of one God, the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit."259 The Church is one because of her founder: for "the Word made flesh, the prince of peace, reconciled all men to God by the cross, . . . restoring the unity of all in one people and one body."260 The Church is one because of her "soul": "It is the Holy Spirit, dwelling in those who believe and pervading and ruling over the entire Church, who brings about that wonderful communion of the faithful and joins them together so intimately in Christ that he is the principle of the Church's unity."261Unity is of the essence of the Church:

The Fine print-->>>What an astonishing mystery! There is one Father of the universe, one Logos of the universe, and also one Holy Spirit, everywhere one and the same; there is also one virgin become mother, and I should like to call her "Church."262

What an astonishing mystery! There is one Father of the universe, one Logos of the universe, and also one Holy Spirit, everywhere one and the same; there is also one virgin become mother, and I should like to call her "Church."262

Now read this and apply Mary as she the church

830 The word "catholic" means "universal," in the sense of "according to the totality" or "in keeping with the whole." The Church is catholic in a double sense:
First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. "Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church."307In her subsists the fullness of Christ's body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him "the fullness of the means of salvation"308 which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. The Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost309 and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.

829 "But while in the most Blessed Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she exists without spot or wrinkle, the faithful still strive to conquer sin and increase in holiness. And so they turn their eyes to Mary":306 in her, the Church is already the "all-holy."

Are you beginning to see who she "the RCChurch" is?

She "Mary" is not the body of Christ plan pure and simple.

 

[aspen]

Mary is an example of a redeemed human being - fully justified and sanctified through Christ - she is definitely part of the Body of Christ and like all saints before us, examples.

 

[Dodo_David]

Folks, when I started this thread, I was thinking about cases in which a Roman Catholic spoke negatively about Protestants, as well as cases in which a Protestant spoke negatively about Roman Catholics.

 

[Mungo]

Are you beginning to see who she "the RCChurch" is?

She "Mary" is not the body of Christ plan pure and simple.

No, Mary is not the body of Christ and the Church does not say she is.

The Catechism clearly states that the Church is the Body of Christ. The Catechism has a whole section on this - see paragraphs 787 to796

Here is the "In Brief" summary:

802 Christ Jesus "gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own" (⇒ Titus 2:14).
803 "You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people" (⇒ 1 Pet 2:9).
804 One enters into the People of God by faith and Baptism. "All men are called to belong to the new People of God" (LG 13), so that, in Christ, "men may form one family and one People of God" (AG 1).
805 The Church is the Body of Christ. Through the Spirit and his action in the sacraments, above all the Eucharist, Christ, who once was dead and is now risen, establishes the community of believers as his own Body.
806 In the unity of this Body, there is a diversity of members and functions. All members are linked to one another, especially to those who are suffering, to the poor and persecuted.
807 The Church is this Body of which Christ is the head: she lives from him, in him, and for him; he lives with her and in her.
808 The Church is the Bride of Christ: he loved her and handed himself over for her. He has purified her by his blood and made her the fruitful mother of all God's children.
809 The Church is the Temple of the Holy Spirit. the Spirit is the soul, as it were, of the Mystical Body, the source of its life, of its unity in diversity, and of the riches of its gifts and charisms.
810 "Hence the universal Church is seen to be 'a people brought into unity from the unity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit'" (LG 4 citing St. Cyprian, De Dom. orat. 23: PL 4, 553).

The Church is referred to as "she" because the Church is our mother who Christ provided to look after us and through whom He administers his sacraments.

The Church is also called "she" because the Church is the Bride of Christ.

It's nothing to do with Mary.


830 The word "catholic" means "universal," in the sense of "according to the totality" or "in keeping with the whole." The Church is catholic in a double sense:
First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her [the Church]. "Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church."307In her [the Church] subsists the fullness of Christ's body united with its head; this implies that she [the Church] receives from him "the fullness of the means of salvation"308 which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. The Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost309 and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.

829 "But while in the most Blessed Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she exists without spot or wrinkle, the faithful still strive to conquer sin and increase in holiness. And so they turn their eyes to Mary":306 in her, the Church is already the "all-holy."

Rex,

You totally misunderstand this because you wrench it out of any context.

The context is the section of the Catechism that deals with what we believe using the Apostles Creed and Nicene Creed as the basis, some 1050 paragraphs.

Within that context it is discussing what the Church is, and within that context the meaning of saying the Church is holy.

The Church is the Body of Christ with Christ as the head. It is also the Bride of Christ.

The comparison of the Church with the body casts light on the intimate bond between Christ and his Church. Not only is she gathered around him; she is united in him, in his body. Three aspects of the Church as the Body of Christ are to be more specifically noted: the unity of all her members with each other as a result of their union with Christ; Christ as head of the Body; and the Church as bride of Christ. (CCC 789)

The Church is both human and divine. The Church also exists in three states:
[A]t the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory, contemplating 'in full light, God himself triune and one, exactly as he is. (CCC 954).

All the people in the Church are called to be holy but those in the Church on earth have yet to be perfected.
“The Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real though imperfect." In her members perfect holiness is something yet to be acquired: "Strengthened by so many and such great means of salvation, all the faithful, whatever their condition or state - though each in his own way - are called by the Lord to that perfection of sanctity by which the Father himself is perfect." (CCC 825)

Those who are already in heaven are perfectly holy because one could not enter heaven in an unholy state. Some are ‘canonized’ and can be role models for us. The foremost example for us is Mary as she was conceived holy and never sinned. As the Catechism says:
"[The Church's] structure is totally ordered to the holiness of Christ's members. and holiness is measured according to the 'great mystery' in which the Bride responds with the gift of love to the gift of the Bridegroom." Mary goes before us all in the holiness that is the Church's mystery as "the bride without spot or wrinkle." (CCC 773 my emboldening)

As the Catechism says in para 829
"But while in the most Blessed Virgin the Church [in heaven] has already reached that perfection whereby she [the Church] exists without spot or wrinkle, the faithful [on earth] still strive to conquer sin and increase in holiness.

In that sense, whilst the Church here on earth is both holy and imperfect, the Church in heaven, of which Mary is the perfect (creaturely) example in whom the Church is “all-holy”.

 

[Rex]

963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."502 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."503

973 By pronouncing her "fiat" at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.

 

[aspen]

Do you deny that Mary gave birth to Jesus? That she consented to be His mother?

 

[Selene]

I think you had better read the fine print Selene
Notice the red Christ is the unity of the church which is Mary
Again the catechism disagrees with your statement, the Church is defined as the entire body of Christ.
It's defined as Mary --->> a mystery


Now read this and apply Mary as she the church



Are you beginning to see who she "the RCChurch" is?

She "Mary" is not the body of Christ plan pure and simple.

That is because you are only "picking and choosing" from the Catechism what you want, Rex. You pick the Catechism that says "Mary is the Church?" Why didn't you ALSO pick Catechism #805 which says that the Church is the Body of Christ, Rex?? Why did you leave out CCC 805?

805 The Church is the Body of Christ. Through the Spirit and his action in the sacraments, above all the Eucharist, Christ, who once was dead and is now risen, establishes the community of believers as his own Body.


You see........a Catholic believes that Mary (the mother of Christ), all Christians on earth, all souls in Purgatory, and all the angels and Saints in Heaven are the entire mystical Body of Christ..........the whole Church. So, why did you leave out CCC 805, Rex? Yes, Mary is the Church.......and so are we.

 

[Rex]

Do you deny that Mary gave birth to Jesus? That she consented to be His mother?

Of course not aspen that is who he got his flesh from. His Father was not of this earth.

But that's not the point, the point is Mary by RCC teaching can never be called a daughter of Eve, or of Abraham simply because the RCC makes her in to a goddess, instead of the women born of the same nature as everyone decedent from Eve. The RCC says Mary never shared in the stain of the original sin. Thats the point and that's the point John makes in 1 John

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

Hebrews tells us that Jesus shared the seed of Abraham, Heb 2:16-17 KJV
Romans tells us he shared the seed of David, Romans 1:3
Were Abraham and David free from the stain of original sin as well? Heb 2:14

The RCC's version of Mary doesn't meet pass the test John laid out, see 966 Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin
Clearly that's a different flesh than Abraham and David

1 John 4:1-3
4 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
John identity's your teaching from the first century he spoke about those that went out from them but were no of them, so that they might be established, and here you are. 1 John 2:18-19

 

[Selene]

Of course not aspen that is who he got his flesh from. His Father was not of this earth.

But that's not the point, the point is Mary by RCC teaching can never be called a daughter of Eve, or of Abraham simply because the RCC makes her in to a goddess, instead of the women born of the same nature as everyone decedent from Eve. The RCC says Mary never shared in the stain of the original sin. Thats the point and that's the point John makes in 1 John


Hebrews tells us that Jesus shared the seed of Abraham, Heb 2:16-17 KJV
Romans tells us he shared the seed of David, Romans 1:3
Were Abraham and David free from the stain of original sin as well? Heb 2:14

The RCC's version of Mary doesn't meet pass the test John laid out, see 966 Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin
Clearly that's a different flesh than Abraham and David

1 John 4:1-3
4 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Mary was born with the exact same nature as Adam and Eve. The problem here is you think that Adam and Eve were created sinful to begin with. Adam and Eve were never created with sin in them. When God created Adam and Eve, there was no sin in them. That is exactly the same nature that Mary was created.

 

[Rex]

Mary was born with the exact same nature as Adam and Eve. The problem here is you think that Adam and Eve were created sinful to begin with. Adam and Eve were never created with sin in them. When God created Adam and Eve, there was no sin in them. That is exactly the same nature that Mary was created.

That what the RCC says but the NT says differently about Jesus it says he sahred the seed of David and Abraham not some new created woman free from the stain of original sin. Here's the verses are you denying them?

Hebrews tells us that Jesus shared the seed of Abraham, Heb 2:16-17 KJV
Romans tells us he shared the seed of David, Romans 1:3
Were Abraham and David free from the stain of original sin as well? Heb 2:14

The RCC's version of Mary doesn't meet pass the test John laid out, see 966 Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin
Clearly that's a different flesh than Abraham and David

1 John 4:1-3
4 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

John identity's your teaching from the first century he spoke about those that went out from them but were no of them, so that they might be established, and here you are. 1 John 2:18-19

 

[Selene]

That what the RCC says but the NT says differently about Jesus it says he sahred the seed of David and Abraham not some new created woman free from the stain of original sin. Here's the verses are you denying them?

Hebrews tells us that Jesus shared the seed of Abraham, Heb 2:16-17 KJV
Romans tells us he shared the seed of David, Romans 1:3
Were Abraham and David free from the stain of original sin as well? Heb 2:14

The RCC's version of Mary doesn't meet pass the test John laid out, see 966 Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin
Clearly that's a different flesh than Abraham and David

Yes, Jesus shared the seed of Abraham and David......but that seed that Jesus shared in came through Mary. Why? Because Joseph was not Jesus' father. The flesh of Christ came from Mary. It did not come from Joseph. It was God who made Mary free of original sin.....just as it was God who made Adam and Eve free of sin. Mary has the same flesh as Adam and Eve. This is why Mary praised and called God her "savior" (See Luke 1:46-47). God saved her.

 

[Dodo_David]

Folks, my purpose for starting this thread was to maintain peace between Roman Catholics and Protestants.

To have that peace, it is not necessary to debate the differences between the theological beliefs of the two groups.

In order to promote such peace, doing the following would help:

1) Protestant Christians acknowledge that Christians in the Roman Catholic Church are saved and going to Heaven.

2) Christians in the Roman Catholic Church acknowledge that Protestant Christians are saved and going to Heaven.

Keep in mind what the Apostle Paul says in Romans 10:9-13 :

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Also, Paul says in Ephesians 2:8, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God . . ."

 

[rockytopva]

Where did the RCC say that Mary was not part of mankind, Rex? So far, it has always been YOU who say that Mary was not part of mankind. The RCC never made such comment.

Selene.. .Dodo... Agreed!

 

[rockytopva]

This is not the protestant / catholic hate site.... And some folk need to know how to address the ladies properly!

 

[HammerStone]

Please respect the OP and this community by not going against his wishes and keep this thread on topic. Thank you.