Before Abraham Existed I AM

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ByGraceThroughFaith

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"In most solemn truth," answered Jesus, "I tell you that before Abraham came into existence, I am." (John 8:58)

What did Jesus mean by these words, that caused the Jews to want to stone Him to death, which would have been because they considered His words, blasphemy? It would be the same reason why they wanted to stone Him later, in John chapter 10, “The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone you not; but for blasphemy; and because that you, being a man, make yourself God” (verse 33). As they did in 5:18, “This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God”. What the Jews meant here by “ισον”, was that Jesus was here saying that there is no “essential difference” between Himself and His Father, as in 10:33. Though functionally, the Father was “greater” than Jesus during His Incarnation. (Luke 24:26; John 14:28; 17:5; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:7-9)

To get an understanding of what Jesus says in John 8:58, that got the Jews so enraged, we have to go to what was said in the Greek. "πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί", literally, "before Abraham came into existence, I AM". The contrast between, " γενέσθαι" (was), that is, "began to be" of Abraham; and " ἐγὼ εἰμί" the "timeless existence" of Jesus, is very important. The Jews in had accused Jesus of making Himself to be "greater" than Abraham, and that Abraham actually rejoiced to "see" Jesus, which the Jews could not fathom. Abraham, says Jesus, had a "beginning" as he was born in time; whereas He did not have any "beginning", as He has always existed, which is seen in the force of the words ἐγὼ εἰμί", which is in the present, continuance. But, Jesus' words are far more important as to what they meant to the Jews, than caused them to want to stone Him. They very clearly understood Jesus here to claim the Divine Name, "I AM" for Himself. The Jews understood Jesus to refer to the Book of Exodus, where Moses asks God for His Name, so that he could tell the children of Israel Who had sent him to them. To which God replied, "Eheyeh asher Eheyeh" (Exodus 3:14), which is best rendered into English as "I am who I am". Attempts to weaken these words to, "I will be who I will be", etc, so that they don't apply to Jesus Christ, are quite wrong.

The Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint (LXX), which was completed some 150 years before the Birth of Jesus Christ, and carried out by the best Jewish scholars, who would have been experts in both Hebrew and Greek, render the Hebrew of Exodus 3:14, by "Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", which literally has the meaning, "I am He Who Exists", or "I am the Eternal One". Which is the basis of the Name of God in Hebrew, "YHWH". The LXX was the main Old Testament version that was used by the early Christians, though so who were more learned, used the Hebrew, like the scholar Jerome. Because the Christians made use of the LXX, the Jews in the 2nd century made their own Greek versions of the Old Testament. The first was done by Aquila in the first half of this century. And then towards the end of this century, another was made by Theodotion. Both these versions have rendered the Hebrew, "Eheyeh asher Eheyeh", in Greek “εσομαι (ὃς) εσομαι”, which is the future of “εἰμι”, “I will be Who I will be”. This was done not because they were being more faithful to the Hebrew, but, because it was to counter the Christian use of this verse for the Deity of Jesus Christ, when used with John 8:58.

Exodus 3:14, as translated from the Dead Sea Scrolls, into English, reads: "And God said to [Moses, “I] am that I am.” And he said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’ ” (Martin Abegg Jr., Peter Flint, Eugene Ulrich; The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible). The Jews also recognise this to be the best rendering of the Hebrew text, "Te true pronunciation of the name YHWH was never lost. Several early Greek writers of the Christian Church testify that the name was pronounced “Yahweh.” This is confirmed, at least for the vowel of the first syllable of the name, by the shorter form Yah, which is sometimes used in poetry (e.g., Ex. 15:2) and the -yahu or -yah that serves as the final syllable in very many Hebrew names. In the opinion of many scholars, YHWH is a verbal form of the root hwh, which is an older variant of the root hyh “to be.” Te vowel of the first syllable shows that the verb is used in the form of a future-present causative hiphʿil, and must therefore mean “He causes to be, He brings into existence.” The explanation of the name as given in Exodus 3:14, Eheyeh-Asher-Eheyeh, “I-Am-Who-I Am,” (Encyclopaedia Judaica). And, " And God said unto Moses: ‘I AM THAT I AM’; and He said: ‘Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.’" (The Jewish Publication Society of America, The Holy Scriptures according to the Masoretic Text ).

The Hebrew verb here is, “hâyâh (’ehyeh)” which is the imperfect, “to exist, to be”. The imperfect also denotes habitual or customary action –past, present, or future tense. It also denotes incomplete action, whether in the past, present, or future. In John 1:1 we read, “was the Word...was with God...was God”. This does not mean as in our English, that refers only to the past. Here the Greek for “was”, is “ἦν”, which is the imperfect of “εἰμι”, and like the Hebrew “hâyâh”, denotes incomplete action.

It is the same Hebrew imperfect verb “hâyâh”, used in verse 12, where most English translations read, “I will be with you”. Youngs Literal Translation reads, “I am with thee”, which is right. Alost all these English Versions that read, “I will be with you”, translate the same Hebrew in verse 14, “I am Who I am”, or, “I am that I am”. As we have seen, the LXX translates the Hebrew, “hâyâh”, with “ εἰμι”, which is the present tense, literally, “to be, to exist”. And therefore "Ἐγώ εἰμι” denotes, absolute existence.

It is quite wrong to conclude, as some do, that this verb is always used in the “future tense”. We have examples like Jeremiah 31:9, “They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am (ehyeh) a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.”, and Micah 7:1, “Woe is me! for I am (ehyeh) as when they have gathered the summer fruits, as the grape gleanings of the vintage: there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the first ripe fruit.”, and, Job 11:4, “For thou hast said, My doctrine is pure, and I am (ehyeh) clean in thine eyes.”. In each case the verb “’ehyeh” is in the “present tense”.

In John's vision of Jesus Christ in Revelation chapter 1, we read Jesus' words to John, "Fear not; I am the first and the last: and He that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hades and of death." (17-18). "ὁ ζῶν" (He that Lives), or literally, "The Living One", as in Exodus 3:14 in the Septuagint. On the words, "ὁ πρῶτος καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος" (The First and The Last), Dr J H Thayer, a Unitarian, says in his famous Greek lexicon, "the eternal one" (page 554), something that his own "theology" would never allow, as only Almighty God could ever be described as "Eternal", which he denied! In John's Gospel we have an interesting account of Jesus' arrest. "Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek you? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus said unto them, I am (Ἐγώ εἰμι). And Judas also, who betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am (Ἐγώ εἰμι), they went backward, and fell to the ground." (18:4-6). Note, Jesus tells them in verse 5, "Ἐγώ εἰμι" (I AM), and when they heard this, they fell backwards. In the Gospels we read the account of the boat that the Disciples were on, was being tossed on the sea, and Jesus comes to them walking on the sea. " And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea. And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear. But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid" (Matthew 14:25-27; Mark 6:48-50; John 6:17-20). When Jesus says "it is I", the Greek is actually, " Ἐγώ εἰμι" (I AM), and this was enough assurance for the Disciples!
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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cont...

Returning to the account of the Burning Bush and Moses, we will see some very important factors as to the identity of Who spoke to Moses out of the bush. In Exodus chapter 3, we read in verse 2, " And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush". Then, in verse 4 we read, " So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”". And further, " Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God." (verse 6). Here we read that it was "The Angel (or "One sent", "Messenger"), Who appeared to Moses "in the bush". Then "Yahweh" saw that Moses turned to take a closer look, and "Elohim" called to Moses "from the middle of the bush", and identifies Himself as, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob”. The Eternal God. It should be noted, that since this Person, "The Angel" is said to be "of the Lord", He must be "distinct" from "the Lord", Who would have "sent" Him on this mission. The "Angel (Messenger) of the Lord" is also Someone Who is "sent", as the Hebrew term says. It was The Angel of the Lord who responded to Moses when he asked, "what is His Name, what shall I say to them?" (3:14). To which The Angel of the Lord replied, "I AM WHO I AM". Who is The Lord Jesus Christ!
 

Pierac

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There has been quite a bit of discussion on John 8:58. What happened to this verse as to confuse so many? Let's start in Exodus.

KJV Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Now we shall read the same verse from the Greek Septuagint

Septuagint Exo 3:14 και ειπεν ο θεος προς μωυσην [εγω ειμι ο ων] και ειπεν ουτως ερεις τοις υιοις ισραηλ [ο ων] απεσταλκεν με προς υμας
Note the two separate Greek words used for 'am'

Concordant Literal Version Exo 3:14 Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall come to be just as I am coming to be. And He said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-Come-to-Be has sent me to you.
Now when translated literally you get a whole different look. What happened to the other I am's?

The Hebrew Bible uses the word (hâyâh H1961) in the place of "Am" which is a verb meaning to exist, to be.
Check the Strongs' number.

Clearly Jesus did not say (εγω ειμι ο ων) nor did he state (ο ων), in John 8:58. Jesus spoke the words (εγω ειμι) just like other people in the bible who are not God. So just what was Jesus saying?

But what about the great "I Am him" statement of Jesus? Especially that classic one in John 8:58 where Jesus says, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born I am"?

Surely here Jesus makes the same claim for himself that Jehovah God made back in Exodus 3 where the LORD says to Moses at the burning Bush "I Am Who I Am." Surely Jesus is claiming to be the I AM of the Old Testament as Trinitarian belief asserts?

Now here is something very obvious that they never told me in church. This expression from Jesus' lips "I am" (Greek ego eimi) occurs throughout the Gospel of John and in no other text in John can it mean I AM, the God of the Old Testament.

Go back to John 4:25-26 for instance. The woman at the well said to Jesus, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when that one comes, he will declare all things to us." And Jesus said to her, "I who speak with you am he." You will notice that in most Bibles that word he is in italics. This means that the translators have correctly supplied a word in English that is not in the Greek but that nevertheless makes the intended sense quite clear. Here Jesus says to the woman - in the context of her question about the Messiah - that he is the Messiah, the Christ. "I who speak to you am he." In the Greek it reads ego eimi. Jesus simply says I am he, the Messiah. Definitely not “I am is the one speaking to you!”

In John 9 Jesus heals the blind man. Is this really the beggar who used to sit groping in the dark? Some people said, "Yes, it's him all right." Other said, "No, he just looks like him." But the beggar says, " ego eimi!" And the translators have no problem writing, "I am the one." So why aren't the translators consistent? Why not capitalize what this man says as I AM? Because it is clear that he is not claiming to be the God of the Old Testament. Saying "I am" (ego eimi) does not make somebody God in the Bible!

What Jesus is saying is simply “Before Abraham was born, I am he,” that is, "I am the Messiah."

Notice the context in John 8:56 where Jesus says, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day." By faith Abraham looked forward and saw the coming Messiah before he came in history. He believed the promise that God would send the Promised One. On the other hand these Jews did not believe that Jesus was their Messiah. They were claiming to be Abraham's descendents. Jesus said that this was impossible for they did not recognize him as their Messiah. But Jesus asserts that even before Abraham was born, he is the One who was always in God's plan. This Abraham believe and saw. The Messiah preexisted in God's plan and therefore in Abraham's believing mind, because he trusted the promise of God. Jesus positively did not say, before Abraham was, I was." Also, Jesus did not say, “Before Abraham was, I AM WHAT I AM."

The conclusion is inevitable. Jesus’ claim "Before Abraham was born, I am he" is the straightforward claim that he is the long promised one, the Messiah, the One in question. Jesus is the Savior in God's promise even before Abraham was born.

The Jewish leaders were very well aware of what Jesus was saying about himself! Jesus Was not claiming to be God but the Son of God as Shown in John 19:6. They give the very reason they wanted Him dead!

John 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. 7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Jesus, NEVER claimed to be God! BUT... Jesus did claim to be the Son of God.... What does that mean???

Son of God - This title for Jesus has been given meanings and attributes that were never intended. People have erroneously used the human father-son relationship to describe this title of Jesus’. They have thought that since a human son has the actual essence (made of the same matter) of his father, that therefore, this title implies that Jesus being the Son of God is of the same essence of God. This conclusion will lead you right into the Doctrine of the Trinity. This is the formula they adopted at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD when they said:

"The Son is of the same substance as the Father."

It was at this council that Jesus was first made God. The Holy Spirit interestingly enough was not included in the formula. It was included fifty-six years later at another council. Let’s see what this title really means:

Son of God - In the Old Testament Israel is described as God’s first-born (Exodus 4:22) and is called His son. There is therefore precedence for calling the Messiah "Son of God" for he is Israel’s representative par excellence (ZEB, vol.4, pg.203-204).

"Son of God" denotes an intimate relationship with the Father. It is obvious that sonship must not be understood in a crude pagan way. This bears out Dalman’s contention that the Hebrew concept of "son" does not denote an extensive circle of relationships" (ZEB, vol.4, pg. 205). Adam was called the "son of God" (Luke 3:38), God calls King Solomon His "son" in 1 Chronicles 28:6.

For Paul, "Son of God" is essentially a Christological description expressing "the Son’s solidarity with God" (ZEB, vol.4, pg.204). Closeness to the Father is the basic meaning of "Son of God"(Ibid). This closeness was a relationship that was shared by God’s anointed kings of Israel. Since Jesus is the ideal king of Israel, he is naturally the ideal Son of God. This is how the term came to be synonymous with Messiah and king of Israel. They are all different ways of saying the same thing.

The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg. 204 states:

"The last chapter of the first epistle of John makes every possible emphasis upon the principle that Sonship is the mark of Messiahship. The same is the case with the fourth gospel where the Son of God is synonymous with Messiah and occurs more frequently than any other title. Haenchen maintains that the same equation:

Messiah = Son of God = Son of Man

applies to Mark’s gospel. The same can be said of the rest of the New Testament."

Aspects of Monotheism pg.90 states:

This is the meaning of the title "Son of God." Messiah = Son of God = king of Israel = Son of Man. The Messiah does have the closest and most intimate relationship with the Father. Let’s take a look at some verses to confirm this.

"The kings of the earth rise up, and the princes conspire together against the LORD and His anointed (Messiah)"… "I myself have set up my king on Zion (Israel)"… "The LORD said to me, "You are my son" (Psalm 2:2,6-7).

Here we see God speaking of the Messiah using all three titles; Messiah, king of Zion, and son.

"He first found his own brother and told him, "We have found the Messiah"…"Rabbi, you are the Son of God: you are the King of Israel" (John 1:41& 49).

John cannot be clearer on this title; the Son of God is the King of Israel. This is the Jewish meaning of "Son of God." Any other definition will take away from the true meaning of the title into something that was never intended by its Jewish author.

Hope this helps,
Paul


 
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Pierac

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@Pierac this should answer your objections, as does my OP in this thread, which you fail to understand

Abraham Rejoiced to See My Day

So you saying the begger whom says I AM .... the same words as Jesus spoke in the very Book of John " ego eimi!" is also GOD

Joh 9:9 Others were saying, "This is he," still others were saying, "No, but he is like him." He kept saying, (ego eimi!)"I AM"

Try harder, little child, still on the milk of the word... sucking the teat of the traditions of men!
Paul
 

Pierac

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I have a question for ... ByGraceThroughFaith

Does Jesus have a God? Yes or No? A Very simple and easy question.....

It's not that hard... Yes or No

Paul
 
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ByGraceThroughFaith

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So you saying the begger whom says I AM .... the same words as Jesus spoke in the very Book of John " ego eimi!" is also GOD

Joh 9:9 Others were saying, "This is he," still others were saying, "No, but he is like him." He kept saying, (ego eimi!)"I AM"

Try harder, little child, still on the milk of the word... sucking the teat of the traditions of men!
Paul

firstly, your silly insults show that you are still ignorant of what the Bible says, so you need to be RUDE!

Secondly, the Hebrew Elohim and the Greek Theos, are used for the devil, fallen angels, false gods, false idols, and even human judges; as well as Almighty God. Are we to understand that every time it is used for the True God of the Bible, that it should really mean, "god"?

Thirdly, you will note that Jesus does not say in John 8:58, "I am The Messiah", but simply, "I AM". If you understand any Greek grammar, you should know that, when Jesus responds to the Jews, "πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί", He is contrasting, "γενέσθαι", the coming into existence of Abraham, to His own timeless existence, "εἰμί". Which is what Jesus says of Himself in Revelation 1:18, "καὶ ὁ ζῶν", which is the periphrastic present active indicative, literally, "The Living One", which is what the LXX says in Exodus 3:14, "ὁ ὤν", "The Living One"

Fourthly, in Revelation 1:17, and 2:8 and 22:13, Jesus says of Himself, "ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ πρῶτος καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος", which is, "I am The First and The Last". Which the Unitarian Greek scholar, Dr Joseph Thayer, defines in his Greek lexicon, "ὁ πρῶτος καί ὁ ἔσχατος, i. e. the eternal One, Rev_1:17; Rev_2:8; Rev_22:13". Jesus Christ is THE ETERNAL ONE, which makes Him YHWH!

Fifthly, if you wnat be to respond to you again, quite the childish insults!
 
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ByGraceThroughFaith

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I have a question for ... ByGraceThroughFaith

Does Jesus have a God? Yes or No? A Very simple and easy question.....

It's not that hard... Yes or No

Paul

Jesus says in John 20:17, "τὸν πατέρα μου καὶ πατέρα ὑμῶν καὶ θεόν μου καὶ θεὸν ὑμῶν", "My Father and your Father; and My God and your God"

You will note here, that Jesus does not use, "τὸν θεόν", where the definite article in the Greek is not used. Should we here translate in English, "god", as the Jehovah's Witnesses say for John 1:1?

In Hebrew 1:8, God the Father addresses Jesus Christ directly, "πρὸς δὲ τὸν υἱόν, Ὁ θρόνος σου, ὁ θεός, εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος", "But to the Son, Your Throne O God is forever and ever". The Father addresses Jesus as GOD. Even the Unitarian New Testament by Dr George Noyes, reads, "Thy throne O God", The New Testament: : George Rapall Noyes , Ezra Abbot , Constantin von Tischendorf : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Further, in Hebrews 1:10-12, the Father continues to address Jesus, and applies Psalm 102:24-27, which is about the Creation of the universe by Elohim, directly to Jesus Christ! This is also clear that the Father says that Jesus Christ is the Actual Creator!
 
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Pierac

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Jesus says in John 20:17, "τὸν πατέρα μου καὶ πατέρα ὑμῶν καὶ θεόν μου καὶ θεὸν ὑμῶν", "My Father and your Father; and My God and your God"

You will note here, that Jesus does not use, "τὸν θεόν", where the definite article in the Greek is not used. Should we here translate in English, "god", as the Jehovah's Witnesses say for John 1:1?

In Hebrew 1:8, God the Father addresses Jesus Christ directly, "πρὸς δὲ τὸν υἱόν, Ὁ θρόνος σου, ὁ θεός, εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος", "But to the Son, Your Throne O God is forever and ever". The Father addresses Jesus as GOD. Even the Unitarian New Testament by Dr George Noyes, reads, "Thy throne O God", The New Testament: : George Rapall Noyes , Ezra Abbot , Constantin von Tischendorf : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Further, in Hebrews 1:10-12, the Father continues to address Jesus, and applies Psalm 102:24-27, which is about the Creation of the universe by Elohim, directly to Jesus Christ! This is also clear that the Father says that Jesus Christ is the Actual Creator!

So you agree... Jesus has a God... What I'm missing in your post is the 3rd member of the Trinity...

We all know Jesus has a God...


Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him ...

Mat 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"

Come on.... even after Jesus was raise from the dead... He stated...
Joh 20:17 Jesus *said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

Rev 3:12 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

My GOD.... how stupid can you be???
Jesus can not be God... and then claim to have one.... Silly Child... You know not of what you post!!

Shema Yisrael! Hear, O Israel!
Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

This is one of the very first Bible verse that most Jewish boys and girls learn. It binds the Jewish life and community together. Every devout Jew recited it daily and even utter the Shema when dying. This is the one belief that distinguished Israel from all the surrounding nations that had multiple gods. “The Lord is one Lord” is thus Israel's classic statement of monotheism, Judaism's highest confession of Faith. It speaks of Yahweh's uniqueness and exclusiveness, that he is one single integral person, not divisible.

The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible tells us that there are two valid ways of interpreting the Shema of Deuteronomy 6:4. It is possible to translate, "Yahweh, our God, is one Yahweh"- in which case the Shema affirms that Yahweh can not be divided into several Yahweh manifestations (poly-Yahwism), like the Baals of different sanctuaries [or we might add the Trinity of later Nicene Christianity]. Or we may translate: "Yahweh is our God, Yahweh alone"-in which case the Shema affirms that Yahweh is the only and the unique God [we will soon see that Jesus affirmed this creed and John 17:3].

Both of these nuances are given in other Old Testament passages. The person of God is indivisible and he has no other in His class for He is alone and unique. He is a single divine individual.

Deu 4:35 "To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him….39 "Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.

Deu 32:39 'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.


The New Testament clearly states Jesus has a God and Father, both before and after his resurrection. We know the Bible does not contradict. So why do you try and teach such spiritual nonsense from your Church???

Stop following men... and actually do some research on you own.... silly child!


Let's continue....
If we may let our Lord and King have the final word. Jesus plainly states, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24). Who does Jesus declare are the "true worshipers"? He insists, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father…" If we would be amongst the true worshipers we must be with Jesus worshiping this Father. Evidently, those who worship "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, three persons in one God," Are not said by Jesus to be the true worshippers. Those who worship the Father as the "only true God" are. The worshipper of the One God, the Father, as Jesus’ own affirmation that he is the true worshipper.

This is the biblical pattern throughout. The so-called Lord's prayer, the model prayer, teaches us to "pray in this way: our Father who art in heaven…"(Matt. 6:9). This pattern of prayer and worship prescribed by our Lord Jesus is followed and sanctioned by every example given in Scripture. See the following:

“Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus; that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom.15:5-6).

" For this reason I bow my knees before the Father," (Eph 3:14)

" giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord
Jesus Christ, " (Eph 5:20)

" We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, "( Col 1:3 )

"giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light." (Col 1:12)

"And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus,

giving thanks to God the Father "through" him." (Col 3:17)


This list is by no means exhaustive. But it is sufficient to show that we are, with our Lord Jesus, to worship and pray to the Father. This is the usual pattern of prayer and worship in the New Testament. They prayed to the one God through the name or authority of Jesus Christ.

You post as a Child...ByGraceThroughFaith
Paul
 
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Carl Emerson

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So you agree... Jesus has a God... What I'm missing in your post is the 3rd member of the Trinity...

We all know Jesus has a God...


Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him ...

Mat 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"

Come on.... even after Jesus was raise from the dead... He stated...
Joh 20:17 Jesus *said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

Rev 3:12 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

My GOD.... how stupid can you be???
Jesus can not be God... and then claim to have one.... Silly Child... You know not of what you post!!

Shema Yisrael! Hear, O Israel!
Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

This is one of the very first Bible verse that most Jewish boys and girls learn. It binds the Jewish life and community together. Every devout Jew recited it daily and even utter the Shema when dying. This is the one belief that distinguished Israel from all the surrounding nations that had multiple gods. “The Lord is one Lord” is thus Israel's classic statement of monotheism, Judaism's highest confession of Faith. It speaks of Yahweh's uniqueness and exclusiveness, that he is one single integral person, not divisible.

The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible tells us that there are two valid ways of interpreting the Shema of Deuteronomy 6:4. It is possible to translate, "Yahweh, our God, is one Yahweh"- in which case the Shema affirms that Yahweh can not be divided into several Yahweh manifestations (poly-Yahwism), like the Baals of different sanctuaries [or we might add the Trinity of later Nicene Christianity]. Or we may translate: "Yahweh is our God, Yahweh alone"-in which case the Shema affirms that Yahweh is the only and the unique God [we will soon see that Jesus affirmed this creed and John 17:3].

Both of these nuances are given in other Old Testament passages. The person of God is indivisible and he has no other in His class for He is alone and unique. He is a single divine individual.

Deu 4:35 "To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him….39 "Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.

Deu 32:39 'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.


The New Testament clearly states Jesus has a God and Father, both before and after his resurrection. We know the Bible does not contradict. So why do you try and teach such spiritual nonsense from your Church???

Stop following men... and actually do some research on you own.... silly child!


Let's continue....
If we may let our Lord and King have the final word. Jesus plainly states, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24). Who does Jesus declare are the "true worshipers"? He insists, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father…" If we would be amongst the true worshipers we must be with Jesus worshiping this Father. Evidently, those who worship "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, three persons in one God," Are not said by Jesus to be the true worshippers. Those who worship the Father as the "only true God" are. The worshipper of the One God, the Father, as Jesus’ own affirmation that he is the true worshipper.

This is the biblical pattern throughout. The so-called Lord's prayer, the model prayer, teaches us to "pray in this way: our Father who art in heaven…"(Matt. 6:9). This pattern of prayer and worship prescribed by our Lord Jesus is followed and sanctioned by every example given in Scripture. See the following:

“Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus; that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom.15:5-6).

" For this reason I bow my knees before the Father," (Eph 3:14)

" giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord
Jesus Christ, " (Eph 5:20)

" We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, "( Col 1:3 )

"giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light." (Col 1:12)

"And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus,

giving thanks to God the Father "through" him." (Col 3:17)


This list is by no means exhaustive. But it is sufficient to show that we are, with our Lord Jesus, to worship and pray to the Father. This is the usual pattern of prayer and worship in the New Testament. They prayed to the one God through the name or authority of Jesus Christ.

You post as a Child...ByGraceThroughFaith
Paul

If you want an audience - show some respect for those who don't understand or oppose your views.

The way you present rightly turns folks off - Folks look for the Love of God first before opening their ears...
 

Pierac

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If you want an audience - show some respect for those who don't understand or oppose your views.

The way you present rightly turns folks off - Folks look for the Love of God first before opening their ears...

Why would you think I want an audience??? Silly child.... I show the most respect of anyone who does not understand... The truth is you and others... force your traditions of men on those whom do not understand... I want you to think Carl... When was a prophet of God ever accepted by Men? When was a Man whom taught against the traditions of men given respect much less be out cast!

You don't get it.... If I wanted loved and praised by everyone on this site... It would show you what you think! I would suck up to little children like you, just so I could be loved by men... You speak as a Spiritual Child!!!

You don't understand.... as you follow men, not God!
Come on Carl... Challenge what Satan has given you... Ask God to open your eyes...
Paul
 

marks

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In John 9 Jesus heals the blind man. Is this really the beggar who used to sit groping in the dark? Some people said, "Yes, it's him all right." Other said, "No, he just looks like him." But the beggar says, " ego eimi!" And the translators have no problem writing, "I am the one." So why aren't the translators consistent? Why not capitalize what this man says as I AM? Because it is clear that he is not claiming to be the God of the Old Testament. Saying "I am" (ego eimi) does not make somebody God in the Bible!
Apples and oranges. This is what I mean. The blind man was asserting his identity, while Jesus was asserting His existance.

The blind man was being questioned about possibly lying that he was the one who had been born blind, and that provides the antecedant to his answer. Ego eimi, I am (the one who was born blind).

Jesus was being questioned over how He could have been seen by Abraham, not being even 50 years old. Jesus' answer was to place a chronology of their respective existance, specifically, Before Abraham did exist, I do exist. Before Abraham was, I am.

So then the blind man was establishing his identity, Jesus was establishing His pre-existance.

Much love!

Much love!
 

Pierac

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This is a serious study thread, please take your childish disputes elsewhere!

So, expose my childish disputes.... You and others, with one liner post... lazy response... because my post show how you look!!!

Silly Child.... Did not Paul say no less that 6 times..... All things are of God!!! See Rom. 11:36; 1 Cor. 8:6, and 11:12; 2 Cor. 5:18; Eph. 1:11, and Heb. 2:10.... That includes me... I'm here because of GOD!!!

Don't be such a spiritual baby... your here for the same reason!!

So... ByGraceThroughFaith... I want you to understand... t
his is a serious thread because I AM here... Other wise, you are just sucking up to each other... Like Democrats in Congress... whom only what to hear from those who agree!!!

So in your next post are you going to call me a racist??? You going to follow the pattern of CNN with how it disagrees with others???
Jim Acosta or is it.... Anderson Cooper? What's your real name ByGraceThroughFaith?
Paul
 

Pierac

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Apples and oranges. This is what I mean. The blind man was asserting his identity, while Jesus was asserting His existance.

The blind man was being questioned about possibly lying that he was the one who had been born blind, and that provides the antecedant to his answer. Ego eimi, I am (the one who was born blind).

Jesus was being questioned over how He could have been seen by Abraham, not being even 50 years old. Jesus' answer was to place a chronology of their respective existance, specifically, Before Abraham did exist, I do exist. Before Abraham was, I am.

So then the blind man was establishing his identity, Jesus was establishing His pre-existance.

Much love!

Much love!

No not Apples and oranges!!! Both Jesus and the blind man said the very same words.... Ego eimi . It is you whom choose to add to scripture.... You need to read scripture IN CONTEXT!!! Your translation from the Greek is Bias... The blind man never said I AM... and neither did Jesus they both said Ego eimi!

What Jesus is saying is simply “Before Abraham was born, I am he,” that is, "I am the Messiah."

Notice the context in John 8:56 where Jesus says, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day." By faith Abraham looked forward and saw the coming Messiah before he came in history. He believed the promise that God would send the Promised One. On the other hand these Jews did not believe that Jesus was their Messiah. They were claiming to be Abraham's descendents. Jesus said that this was impossible for they did not recognize him as their Messiah. But Jesus asserts that even before Abraham was born, he is the One who was always in God's plan. This Abraham believe and saw. The Messiah preexisted in God's plan and therefore in Abraham's believing mind, because he trusted the promise of God. Jesus positively did not say, before Abraham was, I was." Also, Jesus did not say, “Before Abraham was, I AM WHAT I AM."

The conclusion is inevitable. Jesus’ claim "Before Abraham was born, I am he" is the straightforward claim that he is the long promised one, the Messiah, the One in question. Jesus is the Savior in God's promise even before Abraham was born.

I'm happy to be the only one making this a serious thread... given such childish post!
Paul
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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So, expose my childish disputes.... You and others, with one liner post... lazy response... because my post show how you look!!!

Silly Child.... Did not Paul say no less that 6 times..... All things are of God!!! See Rom. 11:36; 1 Cor. 8:6, and 11:12; 2 Cor. 5:18; Eph. 1:11, and Heb. 2:10.... That includes me... I'm here because of GOD!!!

Don't be such a spiritual baby... your here for the same reason!!

So... ByGraceThroughFaith... I want you to understand... t
his is a serious thread because I AM here... Other wise, you are just sucking up to each other... Like Democrats in Congress... whom only what to hear from those who agree!!!

So in your next post are you going to call me a racist??? You going to follow the pattern of CNN with how it disagrees with others???
Jim Acosta or is it.... Anderson Cooper? What's your real name ByGraceThroughFaith?
Paul

Dude you need some serious help
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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No not Apples and oranges!!! Both Jesus and the blind man said the very same words.... Ego eimi . It is you whom choose to add to scripture.... You need to read scripture IN CONTEXT!!! Your translation from the Greek is Bias... The blind man never said I AM... and neither did Jesus they both said Ego eimi!

What Jesus is saying is simply “Before Abraham was born, I am he,” that is, "I am the Messiah."

Notice the context in John 8:56 where Jesus says, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day." By faith Abraham looked forward and saw the coming Messiah before he came in history. He believed the promise that God would send the Promised One. On the other hand these Jews did not believe that Jesus was their Messiah. They were claiming to be Abraham's descendents. Jesus said that this was impossible for they did not recognize him as their Messiah. But Jesus asserts that even before Abraham was born, he is the One who was always in God's plan. This Abraham believe and saw. The Messiah preexisted in God's plan and therefore in Abraham's believing mind, because he trusted the promise of God. Jesus positively did not say, before Abraham was, I was." Also, Jesus did not say, “Before Abraham was, I AM WHAT I AM."

The conclusion is inevitable. Jesus’ claim "Before Abraham was born, I am he" is the straightforward claim that he is the long promised one, the Messiah, the One in question. Jesus is the Savior in God's promise even before Abraham was born.

I'm happy to be the only one making this a serious thread... given such childish post!
Paul

Utter RUBBISH
 
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