Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Identity is not I am but existence, as Mark pointed out. Worse, your own post tells the story 5 Words <> 2 words. Jesus is NOT saying what God said.
Before Abraham Existed I AM
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Identity is not I am but existence, as Mark pointed out. Worse, your own post tells the story 5 Words <> 2 words. Jesus is NOT saying what God said.
What He said was this.
Before Abraham did exist, I do exist. Before Abraham was (past tense of "to be"), I am (present tense of "to be").
Much love!
That's not what I'm talking about. I still think you aren't realizing what my actual assertion is. Can you restate for me what I've been saying?
That Jesus declares an existence that is at the same time "now", and "before Abraham"? Before Abraham was (past tense of the verb "to be), I am (present tense of the verb "to be"). Before Abraham did exist, I do exist.
Much love!
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The fact that Jesus made the declaration that He was before Abraham was ....is impossible for a mere human. And it was never said of the beggar that he was the Word made flesh, and the Word was God who was in the beginning with God. We all use the words "I am..." and yet, we are not God. When God says "I Am" He is making a statement of eternal immortality, without beginning or end, but who IS the beginning and the end, the author and finisher, the Alpha and Omega ...the One who has created all things.
Brother, what we are witnessing is a denial of the true Lord Jesus Christ ....a falling away (from the gospel of Christ). Although sad, we shouldn't be too shocked.
@TLHKAJ The reference there to Alpha and Omega in relation to the Great I AM is very apt indeed.
Just imagine, were I to make that same claim!
Before Abraham Lincoln was, I am! I can just imagine how they'd all look at me!
"It is because you, a man, make yourself to be God!" They understood!
"How did you ever see Abraham, you aren't even 50 years old!?" The didn't understand.
"Before Abraham was, I am." That's how.
Much love!
No... They do not... But it's so easy to make them look.... like Marks from his last post... Biblically Stupid!!!
Guess it must be part of God's plan... as all things are of God!!!
Paul
Exactly!!
Exactly what? You must be Jim Acosta from the biblical CNN on this thread.... Making comments out of your diarrhea mouth, with no scripture to back up your point of view???? What scripture do you think gives you the RIGHT to say Exactly!
Exactly What???
Silly child, please post some MEAT of the word... or just eat your Captain Church Crunch ... Please!!!
Paul
the Person Who Appeared to Moses in the Buring Bush, is "Malakh YHWH"; literally the "Messenger of YHWH", or, "The One Sent by YHWH". It is clear from Exodus 3, that this "Malakh", is Himself, YHWH and Elohim. Who said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM", that is, "The Eternal God", as the LXX has it.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
I marvel at this kind of study, and even appreciated it. I do. The problem is, it leads one to believe that what is established by language study, is the end-all of what is true.
However, according to the scriptures, that is not at all true--but rather that the "words are spirit" and "must be spiritually discerned", because all language has been "confused" by God for a reason--and the end-all of "all truth" is rather sent by the Spirit. And who is it that has sent the Spirit?
But what does it matter if one says Jesus is God and another says He is not, if the Father and the Son are One?
It only matters for the telling of what is written. Which is to say, all that comes forth from God, is of God. So what--so what if God sent one born of the flesh among those also born of the flesh and created? It matters not, but only matters that it is He who has done it. And like the Centurion who did not need for Christ to come to his house because it was enough that He ordered that his servant should be healed--are we so foolish as to debate what God has ordered? Indeed we are.
Moreover, our doubt and our examination is toward God, for it is He who sends all who are sent.
Even so, if God sent a cake or mere bread rather than a man--so what? To eat it--is to receive God.
Moreover, our doubt and our examination is toward God, for it is He who sends all who are sent.
Even so, if God sent a cake or mere bread rather than a man--so what? To eat it--is to receive God.
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Yes it is... if you actually knew what you were talking about...
I am the Alpha and the Omega.
This is referenced to Revelation 1:8. But Revelation 1:8 is talking about The Almighty, Revelation 22:12 is not using this title for Jesus but for God again. If we read Revelation 22:6 it tells us who the subject is, "The Lord, the God of prophetic spirits." Jesus does say in Revelation 1:17 that, "I am the first and the last." We shall examine what he meant by that statement.
Just because the same title is used to describe two people does not mean that those two people are one. As we can easily read… David called King Saul "My Lord " but that does not make Saul God (1 Samuel 24:8).
Israel’s Judges were called "saviors" but that does not make them and Jesus one person? (Nehemiah 9:27).
Jeroboam the Second of Israel is called "Israel’s savior," but that does not make him Jesus? (2 Kings 13:5)
Before we discuss these verses it would benefit us to understand John’s view of God.
Examples:
John 17:3
"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
Revelation 1:6
"Who (Jesus) has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."
John 20:17
"But go to my brothers and tell them, "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."
In these verses John does not consider Jesus to be God in any way. For John, Jesus has a God. John also does not believe Jesus to be omniscient even after his resurrected state. Revelation 1:1 says:
"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him."
Even after his resurrection Jesus is not omniscient. God still gives him revelations. Emphasis on God gives him. Now we will look at Revelation 1:17 with the correct background of John’s thinking, and not with a mind set on making Jesus God at all costs.
It is obvious that God Almighty is the first and the last, but how is Jesus also the first and the last? Jesus is the first because he is the firstborn in two ways. One, he is the firstborn of God, which to the Jews implied that as the firstborn you are entitled to be the heir of your father, which Jesus is (Hebrews 1:2). Also according to Strong’s Greek Dictionary it means foremost in importance, which Jesus certainly is. This also corresponds with Psalms 89: 28 - 30.
Secondly, Jesus is the firstborn from the dead to be resurrected, which is what Jesus is speaking about in Revelation 1:18 which follows his statement that he is the first and the last. It reads:
"I am the first and the last, the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever."
This is also is in agreement with Colossians 1: 18. Jesus is the last because when he comes again it will be the end of the present age, and he will be in effect the last one to enter this world while it is still under the influence of Satan. He will then usher in the Messianic kingdom of God
Come on farouk... You can do better... really... trying to use what you hear in church... words like Alpha and Omega.... and then claim some superior truth that no one sees... You post as a Child!!!
Try harder...
Paul
Clearly Alpha and Omega in revelation refers to the Lord Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God.
Hebrews 1:6, The Father says to WORSHIP Jesus Christ.
“και παν κτισμα ο εστιν εν τω ουρανω και εν τη γη και υποκατω της γης και επι της θαλασσης α εστιν και τα εν αυτοις παντα ηκουσα λεγοντας τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω η ευλογια και η τιμη και η δοξα και το κρατος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων” (Revelation 5:13-14)
"And ALL of the Creation, which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, to Him Who sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be ALL the blessing, and ALL the honour, and ALL the glory, and ALL the might, for ever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped." (so emphasized in the Greek)
Note the words, “τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω”, “to Him Who sits on the throne AND to the Lamb”, where the Greek conjunction, “και”, is used for “sameness”, with absolute equality. Thus, we read in chapter 22, verse 1: “And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb”. The Greek here is very important, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου”, where “του θρονου” (the throne), is in the singular number. God and the Lamb, as “distinct” Persons, are united in Their Rule. This absolute unity, can also be seen in chapter 11:15, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall Reign for ever and ever”. Note the end, “He shall Reign”, which in the Greek is, “βασιλευσει”, which is in the singular number. It can refer to “His Christ”, or, to “our Lord and of His Christ”, the latter no doubt being the correct meaning, as seen from the main passage from chapter 5, and 22. Let no one suppose that there is some “subordination” with Jesus Christ to the Father, post-Incarnation, as this is proven as completely wrong from these passages in Revelation.
These passages are some of the strongest and clearest in the Holy Bible, that speak of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. It also shows His equality with the Father, and further teaches that there are Two Persons in Scripture, Who are equally Almighty God. We read, "to Him Who (Gk, toi) sits on the throne, and to the (Gk, toi) Lamb". Where it is very clear from the Greek text, that two DISTINCT Persons are spoken of, God the Father, and God the Son (the Lamb).
Verse 13 speaks of "every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them", which is nothing less than the entirety of the human race, "every created thing", with no exceptions. Here the entire universe ascribes "THE blessing, and THE honour, and THE glory, and THE Might", where in the Greek text, the "article [the]" is repeated with each word, signifying, "whatever blessing, and honour, and glory, and might", there is in the entire universe, as in ALL blessings, honour, glory, might, is here said to belong "to Him that sits on the throne", which is God the Father in this case. So, let us be clear here what is being taught; that, ALL, "THE blessing, and ALL THE honour, and ALL THE glory, and ALL THE might", are said EQUALLY to belong to God the Father, and God the Son. In the Book of Isaiah we read these words: "to whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like? (46:5), and in 42:8, "I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise unto graven images". It is very clear from these passages, that Almighty God would never "share" His glory, praise with another, nor can He ever be compared with, or made equal with anyone. And yet, in the passage in Revelation, this is exactly what the Apostle John, writing under the guiding of the Holy Spirit, has done! It would be nothing short of blasphemy, for the Apostle John, to have written as he did in Revelation 5:13-14, IF, Jesus Christ was a created being, as some, like the Jehovah's Witnesses falsely teach. How can the Almighty Creator God, be EVER "share" the " blessings, and honour, and glory, and might", with a someone Whom He created? Can the Creator be said to be EQUAL with His creation, IF as some blaspheme, that Jesus is a created being? Jesus Himself says in the Gospel of John, "My Father works until now, and I work" (5:17), which the Jews rightly understood as Jesus "making Himself equal (Gk, isos, "the same in quality". J H Thayer, Greek-English lexicon; "to claim for one's self the nature, rank, authority, which belongs to God, Jn. v.18", p.307. Thayer was a Unitarian, who, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, denied the Deity of Jesus Christ) to God (toi theoi)", because He had called God, "His OWN Father" (verse 18). Thus is their relationship. And in verse 23, Jesus says something that ONLY someone who was coequal to the Father could ever have said. We read: "That everyone (all humans) should honour (Gk, time, "worship, esteem, honour") the Son, even as (Gk, kathos, "just as, even as", indicating comparision) they honour the Father. He that does not honour the Son, does not honour the Father Who sent Him". Can a created being demand that SAME honour that God the Father is given? Regardless of highly exalted Jesus Christ might have been, if He were a created being, there is NO way that He could ever have used language as He does here, without blaspheming. Even as the Incarnate Son of God, Jesus Christ demanded EQUAL “HONOUR” with the Father, though He says that “The Father is greater than I” (John 14:28). Here is indeed a Great Mystery!
John then goes on to say in verse 14, “And the elders fell down and WORSHIPPED”. This “worship” is here directed to BOTH, “to Him Who sits on the throne, AND unto the Lamb”, which further shows that Jesus Christ, post-Incarnation, is 100% COEQUAL, with God the Father, and in the Godhead, His Deity is no “less”, in any way, than the Father. The fact that BOTH are WORSHIPPED TOGETHER, can only be understood to Their being also COESSENTIAL
Also, in Revelation 1:17, and 2:8, we read of Jesus Christ say of Himself, that He is, "the first and the last". Thayer says of the words, " ὁ πρῶτος καί ὁ ἔσχατος, i.e. the eternal One" (page, 554). Which can ONLY mean that Jesus Christ is UNCREATED, and ETERNAL. Add to this the words of Jesus Christ in chapter 22, “I am THE Alpha and THE Omega, THE First and THE Last, THE Beginning and THE End”. In Isaiah 44:6, we read, “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am THE First and I am THE Last; besides me there is no god”. It is not only impossible for Jesus to have said these words about Himself, IF, as some teach, that He is no more than a mere “created” being, but, it would also be the highest form of blasphemy. However, we are confident from what we read in the Infallible Word of God, that there can be no doubt, that Jesus Christ, IS indeed ALMIGHTY GOD, without beginning or end, as are God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit.
Jesus Christ IS The Great I AM, Yahweh, Almighty God.
“και παν κτισμα ο εστιν εν τω ουρανω και εν τη γη και υποκατω της γης και επι της θαλασσης α εστιν και τα εν αυτοις παντα ηκουσα λεγοντας τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω η ευλογια και η τιμη και η δοξα και το κρατος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων” (Revelation 5:13-14)
"And ALL of the Creation, which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, to Him Who sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be ALL the blessing, and ALL the honour, and ALL the glory, and ALL the might, for ever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped." (so emphasized in the Greek)
Note the words, “τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω”, “to Him Who sits on the throne AND to the Lamb”, where the Greek conjunction, “και”, is used for “sameness”, with absolute equality. Thus, we read in chapter 22, verse 1: “And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb”. The Greek here is very important, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου”, where “του θρονου” (the throne), is in the singular number. God and the Lamb, as “distinct” Persons, are united in Their Rule. This absolute unity, can also be seen in chapter 11:15, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall Reign for ever and ever”. Note the end, “He shall Reign”, which in the Greek is, “βασιλευσει”, which is in the singular number. It can refer to “His Christ”, or, to “our Lord and of His Christ”, the latter no doubt being the correct meaning, as seen from the main passage from chapter 5, and 22. Let no one suppose that there is some “subordination” with Jesus Christ to the Father, post-Incarnation, as this is proven as completely wrong from these passages in Revelation.
These passages are some of the strongest and clearest in the Holy Bible, that speak of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. It also shows His equality with the Father, and further teaches that there are Two Persons in Scripture, Who are equally Almighty God. We read, "to Him Who (Gk, toi) sits on the throne, and to the (Gk, toi) Lamb". Where it is very clear from the Greek text, that two DISTINCT Persons are spoken of, God the Father, and God the Son (the Lamb).
Verse 13 speaks of "every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them", which is nothing less than the entirety of the human race, "every created thing", with no exceptions. Here the entire universe ascribes "THE blessing, and THE honour, and THE glory, and THE Might", where in the Greek text, the "article [the]" is repeated with each word, signifying, "whatever blessing, and honour, and glory, and might", there is in the entire universe, as in ALL blessings, honour, glory, might, is here said to belong "to Him that sits on the throne", which is God the Father in this case. So, let us be clear here what is being taught; that, ALL, "THE blessing, and ALL THE honour, and ALL THE glory, and ALL THE might", are said EQUALLY to belong to God the Father, and God the Son. In the Book of Isaiah we read these words: "to whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like? (46:5), and in 42:8, "I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise unto graven images". It is very clear from these passages, that Almighty God would never "share" His glory, praise with another, nor can He ever be compared with, or made equal with anyone. And yet, in the passage in Revelation, this is exactly what the Apostle John, writing under the guiding of the Holy Spirit, has done! It would be nothing short of blasphemy, for the Apostle John, to have written as he did in Revelation 5:13-14, IF, Jesus Christ was a created being, as some, like the Jehovah's Witnesses falsely teach. How can the Almighty Creator God, be EVER "share" the " blessings, and honour, and glory, and might", with a someone Whom He created? Can the Creator be said to be EQUAL with His creation, IF as some blaspheme, that Jesus is a created being? Jesus Himself says in the Gospel of John, "My Father works until now, and I work" (5:17), which the Jews rightly understood as Jesus "making Himself equal (Gk, isos, "the same in quality". J H Thayer, Greek-English lexicon; "to claim for one's self the nature, rank, authority, which belongs to God, Jn. v.18", p.307. Thayer was a Unitarian, who, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, denied the Deity of Jesus Christ) to God (toi theoi)", because He had called God, "His OWN Father" (verse 18). Thus is their relationship. And in verse 23, Jesus says something that ONLY someone who was coequal to the Father could ever have said. We read: "That everyone (all humans) should honour (Gk, time, "worship, esteem, honour") the Son, even as (Gk, kathos, "just as, even as", indicating comparision) they honour the Father. He that does not honour the Son, does not honour the Father Who sent Him". Can a created being demand that SAME honour that God the Father is given? Regardless of highly exalted Jesus Christ might have been, if He were a created being, there is NO way that He could ever have used language as He does here, without blaspheming. Even as the Incarnate Son of God, Jesus Christ demanded EQUAL “HONOUR” with the Father, though He says that “The Father is greater than I” (John 14:28). Here is indeed a Great Mystery!
John then goes on to say in verse 14, “And the elders fell down and WORSHIPPED”. This “worship” is here directed to BOTH, “to Him Who sits on the throne, AND unto the Lamb”, which further shows that Jesus Christ, post-Incarnation, is 100% COEQUAL, with God the Father, and in the Godhead, His Deity is no “less”, in any way, than the Father. The fact that BOTH are WORSHIPPED TOGETHER, can only be understood to Their being also COESSENTIAL
Also, in Revelation 1:17, and 2:8, we read of Jesus Christ say of Himself, that He is, "the first and the last". Thayer says of the words, " ὁ πρῶτος καί ὁ ἔσχατος, i.e. the eternal One" (page, 554). Which can ONLY mean that Jesus Christ is UNCREATED, and ETERNAL. Add to this the words of Jesus Christ in chapter 22, “I am THE Alpha and THE Omega, THE First and THE Last, THE Beginning and THE End”. In Isaiah 44:6, we read, “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am THE First and I am THE Last; besides me there is no god”. It is not only impossible for Jesus to have said these words about Himself, IF, as some teach, that He is no more than a mere “created” being, but, it would also be the highest form of blasphemy. However, we are confident from what we read in the Infallible Word of God, that there can be no doubt, that Jesus Christ, IS indeed ALMIGHTY GOD, without beginning or end, as are God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit.
Jesus Christ IS The Great I AM, Yahweh, Almighty God.
You ignored my meatier post.
Your derogatory remarks are very telltale of your character, or lack thereof. I don't care to engage with you any further. I will only post the truth and discuss the truth with ones who value the truth.
(Ignore....)
Then you are at the beginning of your journey at this kind of Study...
Get your Hebrew out Boy...
NASB Ecc 3:10 I have seen the task which God has given the sons of men with which to occupy themselves. 11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity5769 in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the
beginning even to the end.
KJV Ecc 3:10 I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it. 11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world5769 in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
H5769 עלם עולם ‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind
Translation: Ecc 3:10 So God makes everything proper and appropriate for His Plan, but He has put obscurity in their hearts.. so that, or in order that they (MAN) cannot know or understand what it is that He is doing to them in this human existence we call life.
You seem to see more than most... Yet, do you see there is no Heaven or Hell... but only the coming 1000yr kingdom of our Lord and King! How long will Jesus reign...
1Co 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also came through a man. For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him. Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be eliminated is death. for he has put everything in subjection under his feet. But when it says "everything" has been put in subjection, it is clear that this does not include the one who put everything in subjection to him.
And when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.
Marvel not ScottA
Paul
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Derogatory remarks for you giving a single word? I just pointed out your CCN response of... Exactly! That was so lame.... please repost your meatier response....
You want to talk facts! Fact... Jesus Has a God!!!
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him
Joh 20:17 Jesus *said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"
TLHKAJ... will you over come, or do you claim Jesus is God???
Rev 3:12 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.
Silly Child... Jesus has a God both before and after His resurrection!
Joh 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
TLHKAJ do you know the only true God who Sent Jesus? Perhaps you should read Rev 4 and 5... leave out the verses and Note... God is worshiped on the throne, and only one man is worthy to take the book out of Gods hand who is sitting on that throne... the Lamb of God... Jesus
You starting to see now? perhaps not??? However, someone is... or I would not still be posting here..
Paul
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