Before Abraham Existed I AM

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theefaith

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Not sure.... what your saying? Given that YOU believe Jesus is God... Then I'm confused as How the Father of Jesus in YOUR belief is not also Human? As you believe they are 3 in one.... the same being! Thus according to your post the Father is also a man??

Let me Help you...

On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh (Jesus is of the Flesh!), and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated you and man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on you as you sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that we could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!

Try harder thee of little Faith,
Paul

According as his divine power!

“his divine power”!!!


2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
 

amigo de christo

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Apostolic authority!
God sent them apostles to teach them the truth revealed by Christ!
Philip an apostle acts 8
Peter an apostle acts 10


Jn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Acts 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.


There is a big difference between the people, and the priesthood of Christ and the apostles!

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Jn 20:21 as the father sent me, I send you. And Jn 17:18 I send you!

(The apostles with the same mission, power, and authority)

The apostles received the kingdom.
Lk 22:29

The apostles administer the kingdom. Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18

The apostles govern the church.
Matt 28:19-20

The apostles hold office.
Acts 1:15-20

The apostles have authority to forgive sins. Jn 20:23

Apostles are the light of the world!
The church is an extension of Christ in time and space. Matt 5:14

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Three fold ministry,

Teaching:
Sanctification:
Governing:

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

God established order and peace and knowledge of truth in a hierarchical authority of Peter and the apostles!

There is a hierarchical authority in all that God has ordained!

The angelic kingdom!
The civil kingdom!
The church kingdom!
The family!

All are ordered with hierarchical and jurisdictional authority!
I shall stick to the original warning . PETER himself , CHRIST HIMSELF , the other apostels
Would have rebuked your CC big time . SO just cause you make claim you are of them
I ask for the proof of your claim . MEANING THIS , IF you can sit under the CC who often has and does omit
THE OWN TEACHINGS of the CHRIST they claim and the teachings of the apostels they claim , WELL its MOUTH ONLY CLAIMS .
BIBLE TIME my friend . BIBLE TIME and learn it well .too .
 
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amigo de christo

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the church is governed by men!
The witnesses of Christ

Acts 1:8 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The apostles must have successors!

Daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
The church is governed by men . BUT NOT FALSE ONES .
GO ye and learn that very well . LEARN that bible and do so quickly .
Do you wonder why i wont sit under calvin . WELL that is why as well . same reason i wont sit under the CC ,
same reason i wont sit under the mormon . LEARN THAT BIBLE WELL , LEARN that JESUS well
LEARN the apostles in said bible WELL . cause anyone can make the claim their church IS the one true church
but lips only DONT make it the church . EXAMINE the DOCTINE . LEARN that bible well , FOR YOU
THEN eyes are opened and its then we see the deadly dangers of any place that teaches not the whole truth .
 
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theefaith

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I shall stick to the original warning . PETER himself , CHRIST HIMSELF , the other apostels
Would have rebuked your CC big time . SO just cause you make claim you are of them
I ask for the proof of your claim . MEANING THIS , IF you can sit under the CC who often has and does omit
THE OWN TEACHINGS of the CHRIST they claim and the teachings of the apostels they claim , WELL its MOUTH ONLY CLAIMS .
BIBLE TIME my friend . BIBLE TIME and learn it well .too .

Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ,
 

theefaith

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According as his divine power!

“his divine power”!!!


2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
 

Pierac

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The CC is subject unto men who twist doctrine . THE TRUE CHURCH is SUBJECT UNTO CHRIST .

IN DEED!!!
In the New Testament, the word Ekklesia only means an “assembly” or a congregation, a group, a crowd, etc. It never refers to a building or to a Christian denomination as used do today.

Some obvious misconceptions need to be eliminated about the matter of the Ekklesia. First, when Christ said He would build His body, He was not referring to a material structure such as a cathedral, a basilica, or a temple of wood and stone. Secondly, another erroneous notion (very common today) is that Christ was going to build an organization of men on this earth — an organization ruled by appointed men while He remained in heaven. The Ekklesia Christ was going to build was not to be an organization of men. One point in particular prevents Christ’s Ekklesia from being an organization of men no matter how holy and righteous the men may appear to be. With His Ekklesia, Christ insisted that “the gates of hell [hades/the grave] shall not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18). (It is important to know Hades translated sometimes as hell really means grave in modern English). All persons who ever lived in Christ over the centuries (whether they were early apostles, or later ministers and laymen) have had hades prevail over them! All have gone to their graves! True, hades will not triumph over them in the end, but hades is certainly in exultation over them now. They must all await the resurrection to occur at Christ’s second advent for their victory over hades to be complete. The church cannot be an organization of men because Hades does presently prevail over men and will continue to triumph until the resurrection. The problem with many Ministers and Priests today is that they continue to teach nonsense that the “church” is located somewhere on earth, is governed by men and that the “church organization” will never see death. That is not what Christ meant. This concept would be similar to the government of Aaronic priests who ruled ancient Israel under the Old Covenant. Aaron, the brother of Moses, was given authority to be a human mediator (along with his sons) between Israel and God. When Aaron died, he went to hades (the grave). As a result he had to hand his authority down to the next generation of priests. This transfer of authority carried on for generations. But the writer of Hebrews reckoned this type of religious government as being very inferior to what Christ established.

“They truly were many priests, because they were not suffered [allowed] to continue by reason of death.” (Hebrews 7:23)

Aaron and his human descendants had roles of “changeable authority” predominating in their ministries. This resulted in a profound deficiency being associated with it. This is because Aaron and his sons had hades prevail over them. And not only that, but leaders of every Christian
denomination on earth have handed their “authority” on to an earthly son (or to a board of men).


They all die too. This trend is seen all the time and in no way differs from what happened with the Aaronic priesthood of the Old Covenant. All have a changeable authority. The Book of Hebrews points out that Christs unchangeable priesthood is far superior in the Christian Ekklesia.

“But this man [Jesus Christ], because he continues ever, has an unchangeable priesthood”
(Hebrews 7:24). The margin says, απαραβατον ἱερωσυνην, a priesthood that passeth not away
from him.


Christ’s Ekklesia is far different because He does not have to hand His authority down from one man to another. His authority is “unchangeable,” permanent and invested in One individual who “continues ever” (Hebrews 7:24). This is why the gates of hades will never prevail against Christ’s Ekklesia. It is not because hades does not have power over all human members of the Ekklesia, because it does! But hades has no power over Christ anymore! This is why Christ’s Ekklesia is very different from the Old Covenant “church” which depended upon Aaron and his sons handing down their authority to other humans from generation to generation. Christ is different! He is like Melchizedek. Christ’s Ekklesia is not a church building made of stone and wood. It is also not an organization of men with some type of “authority” handed down from father to son (or from leaders to leaders). The Ekklesia of Christ has only one authority and that jurisdiction rests solely in Christ! The Ekklesia is even reckoned as His Body and He is the Head.
He gives us the privilege to represent some of its constituents through His grace. “We are members of his body, of His flesh, and of His bones” (Ephesians 5:30). The Ekklesia, however, is His Body; it is not ours! And it is Christ who mastered hades, not ourselves. He is the Head of
the Body (Colossians 1:18; 2:19). Christ represents the part that controls the whole. Christ is the only part of the Body that never varies. He always remains constant and perfect. All of us who represent His present Body come and go, but the head always stays constant.

Christ, then, is the
Ekklesia. None of us humans on earth represent His Ekklesia in the totality. Others of the past and many more converts of the future will make up the one true Body, the Ekklesia. Anyone who teaches that the true Ekklesia of God is now on earth is forgetting those of the past, those of the future and especially, they are forgetting the Head who is not even on this earthand not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God. Colossians 2:19

Let’s Look At Our Understanding of the Word Church

For most of us, it's not much more than getting up on Sunday morning and driving to a building with like-minded Christians. That building has a sign outside that expresses our understanding of church. That sign may read any number of words followed by the word Church. First Baptist Church, American Bible Church, St. (whomever) Church or any number of catchy phrases or local names may be followed by the word church. The point being, when someone asks you where you go to church, one simply repeats the writing of the sign posted in the front of your Sunday morning meeting. But is that the appropriate question? Perhaps we should ask ourselves what do we mean by using the word Church?

As startling as this is about to sound, most everything that is done in our modern churches have no basis in the Bible. As pastors roar from their pulpits about being "biblical" and following the "pure word of God," their words betray them. Alarmingly, precious little that is observed today in modern Christianity reflects anything found in the first century church. The great bulk of our church practices were spawned during three time periods: the early post Constantinian era (324 to 600), the Reformation era (16th-century), and the Revivalist era. ( 18th-19th century). Do you really think the apostle Paul arose once a week on Sunday morning, bathed, shaved and proceeded to put on his Sunday best? Did he hop on his donkey to take a short ride to a little building with the word church painted out front? Did he follow the same formula week after week in this meeting? What formula, you may ask? The formula known by almost all modern Christians as the liturgy.

Part 1
Paul
 
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Pierac

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Part 2...

What we see in the synagogue:
If we are going to understand about the Ekklesia or places of assembly that the apostles started in the 1st century, the best place to look is at the environment around them at the time, meaning the synagogue services from whence it all began in the first place. Many times that Christ Himself taught, He taught in synagogue services, especially in Galilee. More miracles were done in Capernaum than in all other places put together. They occurred in the synagogue at Capernaum. The book of Matthew or any of the Synoptic Gospels show that most of the miracles performed in Galilee were done in that one synagogue. Jesus Himself was able to speak, teach, and give a lesson in the synagogue in Nazareth at one time (Luke 4:14–30). Jesus was reckoned as a layman as far as the ritualistic system of the Old Testament was concerned. He was not a priest. He was not a Levite. He was a mainline Jewish person. He did have Davidic blood in him, which means He was of royal stock, but His royal lineage gave Him no authority over anyone from a synagogue point of view. Yet, He could speak in the synagogue after the reading of the lesson was over, just as anyone else could.

In the time of the apostle Paul? Paul, would go preach to Iconium, Derbe, Antioch of Pisidia, as seen in Acts chapters 13 and 14. Paul was able to speak in all those synagogues after the reading of the Law and the Prophets. In fact he was asked several times if he would speak to the assembled group; ordinary people were allowed to speak. Such was the nature of the religious community and the form of the general synagogue services in effect in the time of Christ and Paul. If they would not have had open synagogue services where the layman could discuss in Judaism, Jesus Christ Himself as well as Paul would have had a very difficult time in teaching the people on the Sabbath days in our times. That was when Jews, Jewish proselytes, and “god fearers” would gather together in the synagogue to hear the teaching of the Law.

What We See in Christian Services Today

In most modern church services, a layman keeps his mouth shut! He sits and he listens. You have nothing to do with it except sit there and listen or to take a little wafer in your mouth or perform traditional rituals en masse. You are there as a recipient. You are not there to give anything.

In contrast, in the New Testament period or the period of the synagogue system, the layman had as much to say as anybody. When Paul was in Asia Minor or Greece amongst the Jews, they would all get together on the Sabbath. They had to work during the weekdays just like most of us do. They did not have the luxury of being able to turn on the radio or getting out Cruden’s Concordance or study the Scripture. They did not even have the Scripture because it was too expensive to own one in those days. The scriptures were on vellum, skins, and expensive materials. They had to go to the synagogue to study. So the synagogue meeting was a time of communal fraternization, a time of fellowship, when the Jews would come together on the Sabbath day. When the Jews came together you know talked! They were probably some of the liveliest talkers that you can imagine, even entertaining sometimes. You could not have had a synagogue service with those Jewish people coming together in fellowship like that if there was a strict format such as: three songs, a prayer, a sermonette, a song, announcements, and a sermon. Where did that teaching come from?

Synagogue services were very open. That was the channel through which the Gospel of God was spread amongst the Jews. Even the Gentiles, the Greeks and others would come to the synagogue and stand around and talk. Paul had the opportunity to talk in almost every synagogue. Once or twice he was kicked out of one, but he had the chance to talk. This is a beautiful situation. Those synagogue services could considered equivalent to “church” services today. Sometimes they had a little message that went along with the reading of the Law and the Prophets, but it did not go an hour and a half, or even 45 minutes like some churches. The messages were usually short so people could then have questions and answers, and talk back and forth. That was the standard synagogue service.

Paul
 
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Pierac

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Part 3

Let’s Clear Up Some Misconceptions


In the Old Testament, you will not find one word about anybody having to assemble in any town, city, or village of the land of Israel on the Sabbath day. Not one word. The Sabbath day was kept, but not for assembly purposes, or to have a building like a synagogue like that back in the time of Moses. The only thing you will find is that they did have to go to Jerusalem during the three holy day seasons, and they had to go to Jerusalem if they wanted to offer an animal sacrifice, for a blessing, or sin.

There is another misconception. If a person sinned in the Old Testament time, people have had the wrong impression that you just go out in your backyard, build an altar and offer an animal sacrifice. If you were going to be righteous and holy, a lot of animals would be killed. However, that was completely illegal.

In Order To Understand This We Need To Understand the Sacrificial System

You could only offer a sacrifice wherever the sanctuary was, or the Holy Temple at Jerusalem, once that was established. They did not offer many animal sacrifices. In fact, some people went for years without offering a single sacrifice. They were indeed sacrificing, but the priests vicariously were sacrificing for them in the Temple. On the great day of expiation, the Day of Atonement, where are two goats — one slain and one let go. The one let go was a goat offered by and for all the people of Israel. Technically it was the High Priest that did it, but it applied to everyone. A Jew could say he sacrificed an animal on the Day of Atonement, even though he did not touch it. The same thing goes for most all the other sacrifices.

Once they were done at the end of the year, a pious Israelite praying to God daily could legally say before God, thank you God for accepting my sacrifices, though he did not offer one of them. It is important to realize that somebody else did it for them. The whole teaching of the sacrifices is that somebody else has to do it for you. Someone else did it for us. Is that not true? Jesus Christ did. It all makes sense.

There were not many animal sacrifices done by individuals, but they could if they wanted to and some did. However, the national sacrifices at the Temple took care of all these things. There are many teachings on how the priests were to work in the Temple, and sometimes the Levites who helped them. But that only had to do with the Temple in Jerusalem. There is not one word in the Old Testament where God legislated that you have to build a synagogue in a city or a village.

There is one big difference between a synagogue service and a Temple service. The Temple services were conducted according to biblical revelation only by priests, with the help of Levites. That is all. Once in a while, some representatives of the 12 tribes would come up to help, but it was just superficial. Everything done in the Temple, was done by the priesthood. A priesthood was rather aristocratic, father to son, father to son, father to son, and on down the line. In fact it was very aristocratic. There were not that many priests around.

Synagogues Were Run by Laymen (People like you)

The synagogue system was entirely different. It is evident in history, McClintock & Strong’s Cyclopedia that the synagogue services and system was established on the principle of the layman participating in the worship of God. Indeed, the synagogue system was almost entirely a layman’s work. Priests would come along, but they were superficial to the synagogue service, in the sense that it was not essential for them to be there. It is quite true that when there was the reading from the Law and from the Prophets, they gave precedence to a priest to read it if he was in the synagogue because of his holy station. If the priest was not there, they would give it to a Levite next. If a Levite was not there, they would give it to any ordinary Israelite to read. Anybody could read the lesson. After a prayer, the lesson was read, a talk on the lesson was given, and then the proceedings were opened up for fellowship in the whole synagogue. They had different types of synagogues, but it was entirely a layman’s affair. Priests could come into it but only as they agreed with layman. In fact, synagogues were nothing more than community centers. They were primarily religious community centers among the Jews.

A layman could talk in services, if the time period would come for it, as every Israelite was looked on as important as the next person. They had what they call a “ruler of the synagogue” and he was elected by the congregation, by the people of the community. Other roles also existed. For example they have a man in almost every synagogue called the “maethurgeman.” The maethurgeman is the interpreter. He was in almost all synagogue services, and certainly in those of the “diaspora” away from Jerusalem. This man would read the lesson. If he read it in Hebrew, then he himself would interpret to the people. The way they would do it is that one man would get up and read a sentence or two. Another man, the maethurgeman, in the same tone of voice without any voice inflections would try to repeat the lesson in the local dialect, whether that was Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, or Latin. These men were regular people who were part of the synagogue services, the reader and the interpreter or the “speaker” and “tongues” as their titles really meant.

“Any one of the congregation who was capable of interpreting was asked to do so.” (“Synagogue” in McClintock and Strong, Cyclopedia). Anybody could interpret, but they had to have the knowledge to speak, thus anyone 13 years of age and above could do it. One time one person would do it; one time another would do it. The synagogue was a community effort entirely. There was no hierarchy in the early synagogue system. They did have a ruler of the synagogue, and others around to keep control and order, but that was all that they had. However, those offices could change from time to time, and there is not a word in the Old Testament that a ruler of the synagogue has any official capacity as far as God’s revelation is concerned. Obviously because the synagogue was part of the legal system, respect would have been accorded to him. But there is not a word about a hierarchy for synagogues because there is not a word about synagogue or how to make them or anything of that nature in the Old Testament.

What Does All This Have To Do With The Ekklesia?

Out of the synagogue system came the ekklesia system. What a beautiful system it was. There was no hierarchy associated with it, everyone had a chance to speak if they spoke in order. That was a beautiful system in which Jesus Christ could teach in synagogue services. Sometimes He even gave a reading of the Law, as on one occasion recorded in Matthew and Luke:

“And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about. And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all. And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, … Luke 4:14–17

[Jesus read the passage.] And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, ‘This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.’ … Luke 4:20–21

Jesus was allowed an opportunity to speak as a layman. He was not a member of some clergy system. There was no clergy in the synagogues. It was a beautiful system for the spreading of the Gospel. The same opportunity was available to the apostle Paul, and all of the apostles. Paul was allowed to address the synagogue:

“But when they [Paul and his associates] departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down. And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, ‘You men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.’ Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, ‘Men of Israel, and you that fear God, give audience ...’” Acts 13:14–16

Paul preached to them about Jesus and His resurrection. His speech to them was short; it may have been 5 minutes (Perhaps it was longer if Luke edited out some portions).

“And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.” Acts 13:42–43

Paul