Before Abraham Existed I AM

[Wrangler]

Concordant Literal Version Exo 3:14 Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall come to be just as I am coming to be. And He said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-Come-to-Be has sent me to you.
Now when translated literally you get a whole different look. What happened to the other I am's?

In John 9 Jesus heals the blind man. Is this really the beggar who used to sit groping in the dark? Some people said, "Yes, it's him all right." Other said, "No, he just looks like him." But the beggar says, " ego eimi!" And the translators have no problem writing, "I am the one." So why aren't the translators consistent? Why not capitalize what this man says as I AM? Because it is clear that he is not claiming to be the God of the Old Testament. Saying "I am" (ego eimi) does not make somebody God in the Bible!

What Jesus is saying is simply “Before Abraham was born, I am he,” that is, "I am the Messiah."

Also, Jesus did not say, “Before Abraham was, I AM WHAT I AM."

The conclusion is inevitable. Jesus’ claim "Before Abraham was born, I am he" is the straightforward claim that he is the long promised one, the Messiah, the One in question. Jesus is the Savior in God's promise even before Abraham was born.

The Jewish leaders were very well aware of what Jesus was saying about himself! Jesus Was not claiming to be God but the Son of God as Shown in John 19:6. They give the very reason they wanted Him dead!

John 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. 7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Jesus, NEVER claimed to be God! BUT... Jesus did claim to be the Son of God.... What does that mean???

Hope this helps,
Paul

What an outstanding analysis! Bravo, my man!!

 

[Wrangler]

@Pierac this should answer your objections, as does my OP in this thread, which you fail to understand

Resort to name calling = you have lost the argument.

 

[Wrangler]

If you want an audience - show some respect for those who don't understand or oppose your views.

The way you present rightly turns folks off - Folks look for the Love of God first before opening their ears...

In your estimation, did this thread start off with the love you refer or is the burden only on @Pierac?

 

[Wrangler]

Apples and oranges. This is what I mean. The blind man was asserting his identity, while Jesus was asserting His existance.

Wow! The OP and others use Jesus' statement of his existence to be his identity, right?

Beyond that subterfuge is the translators inconsistently translating the same words. ego eimi = ego eimi = ego eimi

 

[marks]

No not Apples and oranges!!! Both Jesus and the blind man said the very same words.... Ego eimi . It is you whom choose to add to scripture.... You need to read scripture IN CONTEXT!!! Your translation from the Greek is Bias... The blind man never said I AM... and neither did Jesus they both said Ego eimi!

What Jesus is saying is simply “Before Abraham was born, I am he,” that is, "I am the Messiah."

Notice the context in John 8:56 where Jesus says, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day." By faith Abraham looked forward and saw the coming Messiah before he came in history. He believed the promise that God would send the Promised One. On the other hand these Jews did not believe that Jesus was their Messiah. They were claiming to be Abraham's descendents. Jesus said that this was impossible for they did not recognize him as their Messiah. But Jesus asserts that even before Abraham was born, he is the One who was always in God's plan. This Abraham believe and saw. The Messiah preexisted in God's plan and therefore in Abraham's believing mind, because he trusted the promise of God. Jesus positively did not say, before Abraham was, I was." Also, Jesus did not say, “Before Abraham was, I AM WHAT I AM."

The conclusion is inevitable. Jesus’ claim "Before Abraham was born, I am he" is the straightforward claim that he is the long promised one, the Messiah, the One in question. Jesus is the Savior in God's promise even before Abraham was born.

I'm happy to be the only one making this a serious thread... given such childish post!
Paul

never said I AM... and neither did Jesus they both said Ego eimi!

I can't imagine what you think this means ego eimi, if not "I am". Are you basing your assertions on knowledge of Koine Greek? Because it doesn't seem that way.

It's just like in English, it's a simple expression, ego eimi. But it doesn't always mean, "I am he". That has to be from the context, not just that every time it appears you read it that way.

Romans 11:13 KJV
13) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

1 Corinthians 1:12 KJV
12) Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying here. I'm not saying Jesus took the Divine Name to Himself, I AM THAT I AM. What I'm saying here is that Jesus declared His pre-existance to Abraham, in saying, before Abraham was (did exist), I am (do exist).

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

So, expose my childish disputes.... You and others, with one liner post... lazy response... because my post show how you look!!!

Agreed. It is a fallacy of argumentation. They cannot attack your flawless argument, so they attack you personally.

If only you weren't so childish. If only you worded it more diplomatically. Yea, right! WHAT is the matter not WHO.

 

[Wrangler]

No not Apples and oranges!!! Both Jesus and the blind man said the very same words

The 'audience' does not have ears to hear.

 

[marks]

Wow! The OP and others use Jesus' statement of his existence to be his identity, right?

Beyond that subterfuge is the translators inconsistently translating the same words. ego eimi = ego eimi = ego eimi

I have no idea what you mean here. What subterfuge?

Before Abraham was, I am. You have the simple statement, that Jesus exists, before Abraham did exist. The only question is whether you believe it as stated. If you do, as do I, terrific! If you do not, then you must determine what you do believe it means, if not that simple statemnet.

@Pierac has apparently concluded that "I am" here actually means "I will be" from Abraham's perspective. That Jesus was only an idea at the time of Abraham, and Abraham rejoiced in that idea.

Others have concluded other things.

I've concluded to stay with exactly what it says, that Jesus exists in a present tense way (eternal) before Abraham existed in the past tense way.

I've found these disagreements frequently come to this same thing. One person reads a word exactly as it's written, and the other person reads the same word, but puts a different meaning to it.

So in this case a present tense verb becomes treated as a future tense to make the meaning come out right.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

I can't imagine what you think this means ego eimi, if not "I am".

I think his point is the "Great, I am" is actually "I am that I am" (or "I am what I am becoming" a variant declaration of his essential characteristic, immortal, existing eternally). So, no matter how you slice it, Jesus never claimed to be God.

What's more, "I am" is not a name of any kind. As someone (you) pointed out when Jesus said it, it referred to his existence not his identity.

God's name is YHWH, not Yeshua.

 

[Wrangler]

What subterfuge?

See @Pierac's brilliant 1st post in this thread.

 

[Wrangler]

The only question is whether you believe it as stated.

No. The only question is why would anyone think this is a claim to deity?

 

[marks]

I think his point is the "Great, I am" is actually "I am that I am" (or "I am what I am becoming" a variant declaration of his essential characteristic, immortal, existing eternally). So, no matter how you slice it, Jesus never claimed to be God.

What's more, "I am" is not a name of any kind. As someone (you) pointed out when Jesus said it, it referred to his existence not his identity.

God's name is YHWH, not Yeshua.

I don't think you or @Pierac are really following what I'm saying. You keep talking about God's Name, I'm not. I've been talking specifically about His existence. That He exists (present tense) "I am", before Abraham did exist (past tense) "before abraham was".

Jesus pre-existed Abraham, and exists eternally (outside our time continuum), that is, if you believe what He said there.

Much love!

 

[Pierac]

Dude you need some serious help

Well spoken by the CNN of the biblical world... at least you could attempt to post at least one scripture I posted and then actually take some time to do a little research and then show me how wrong I AM! No... that would require you to actually read your Bible, You seem to prefer to sit and soak in your church and let others tell you what to believe.... then come here and post one liners... like CNN with nothing biblical to back you up.... !

Have you ever thought, perhaps it's you that needs the help? Help to get off your lazy spiritual butt and actually post some scripture! Then, God forbid... attempt to prove your point???

I can't make this stuff up... when are you going to actually use scripture in your response?

I'm thinking your the liberal... Anderson Cooper of this site in sooo many ways!!!
Paul

 

[marks]

No. The only question is why would anyone think this is a claim to deity?

The first question is, Do you believe what Jesus said? It all starts there. If you believe what He said, well, that's what He said, not a claim to deity, but a claim of pre-existence, and eternal existence.

Much love!

 

[marks]

See @Pierac's brilliant 1st post in this thread.

I was hoping you would just answer me. Since you were claiming I'm using subterfuge. That's what you were saying, right? I'll be happy to be wrong on that!

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus pre-existed Abraham, and exists eternally (outside our time continuum), that is, if you believe what He said there.

@Pierac and I believe what Jesus said there, just not what Christendom is imposing as the interpretation of what it means.

 

[Wrangler]

The first question is, Do you believe what Jesus said? It all starts there.

See how you dodge questions?

 

[Wrangler]

I was hoping you would just answer me.

I did answer you. It's just that you do not like the answer.

BTW, you do this a lot. I give an answer and you immediately ask me what I just answered. I guess it's what makes you, you.

To summarize @Pierac's post. What Jesus said and what God said regarding their existence are not the same. Do you grasp that much?

 

[Behold]

"In most solemn truth," answered Jesus, "I tell you that before Abraham came into existence, I am." (John 8:58)

Jesus was identifying Himself as Messiah, as God come down from Heaven.

Notice that when MOSES went to the burning bush....>He met God, who said His name is..."I AM, that I AM">
That is God saying that to MOSES whom the Jews adore to this day, and His law and commandments.

So, God, manifested in the Flesh, come down from Glory, and is a walking talking human who knows what they are thinking and want to hear, and do not want to hear. So, Because Jesus is THE Truth, ... John 14:6, and being God "who cannot lie"...>He tells them His real Identity...'" I AM", same as God said it to their hero, Moses.
This literally made them lose control., and later, Jesus was looking down from the Cross into these same eyes who were saying...."oh yeah, if you are He, the Messiah, come down from those Nails".
And God the Son on the Cross, said to God the Father in Glory....>"forgiven them, for they know not what they do".

 

[Pierac]

Jesus pre-existed Abraham, and exists eternally (outside our time continuum), that is, if you believe what He said there. Much love!

Your Wrong Marks !!! Pay attention.... Why is it only me that has to do all the work???? again making this a serious thread!!!

Jewish “Ideal” Preexistence
In the English language, and certainly the way young people speak, we often speak about something that happened in the past as though it is happening in the present. For instance, a witness to a bank robbery might say, “And here I am standing in line minding my own business, when bursting through the door comes as a hooded bank robber. He tells us all to get on the floor. He waves his gun around and threatens us. Then he goes up to the teller and yells, ‘Give me the money!’” We understand the events described occurred in the past, even though the narrative is in the present. Speaking of past events in the present is a peculiarity of the English language.

Most languages have peculiarities. The Hebrew mind and language has a peculiarity that English speakers are not accustomed to. They do the opposite of what I have just described. They often use the past tense or the present tense to speak of events yet future. The reason is that the Jews believed that whatever was determined in the mind of God existed before it came to be in history. God is the God who calls the things which do not exist as (already) existing (Rom. 4:17). God promised Abraham that He would give him the promised land and that he would be the father of many descendents. So sure is the fulfillment that sometimes the predictive language is in the past tense, as though it were already accomplished: “To your descendents I “have given” this land” (Gen 15:18). It came to be a common feature of Hebrew thinking that whatever God had decreed already preexisted (in plan and purpose) before it materialized on earth. “When the Jews wished to designate something as predestined, he spoke of it as already existing in heaven.

Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ “was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times” for our sakes who believe in God's word (1Pet. 1:20). This does not mean that Jesus personally preexisted his appearance on earth, because in the same chapter we find that Christians have also been in the “foreknowledge of God the Father” (1Pet. 1:2). The words “foreknowledge” and “foreknown,” noun and verb, are exactly alike. Peter uses precisely the same idea to refer to both Christians and Jesus. Christians do not preexisted heaven before our birth on earth nor did Jesus. similarly, the Bible speaks of Jesus as the Lamb of God who was crucified before the world began (Rev.13:8). Every Bible reader of course knows that Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate in Palestine in the first century. But God ordained his crucifixion to happen before he even created the universe. Therefore, in God's mind, and in the Hebrew understanding, that which came to be had already been. The prophetic future was spoken of in the past tense. What God has decreed, He says is as good as done.

In John 17, Jesus prays just before his arrest in the garden, “I glorify You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given me to do. And now, glorify me together with Yourself, Father, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” (v.4-5) If ever there was a statement that proved the personal preexistence of Jesus with the Father in heaven before he came to earth, surely this is it. Once again, we must caution against haste, for “In Biblical ways of speaking and thinking one may ‘have’ something which is promised in God's plan before one actually has its.” We have already seen this principle in operation, where God's plan of promises are spoken in the “prophetic past tense.” God promised Abraham, “I have given you this land.” God says to Christians, “You are seated with Christ in the heavenlies; you are already glorified (Eph. 2:6; Rom.8:30).
We have these things already in the plan and purpose of God -- even though we do not (yet) have them! Scripture tells us that we have eternal life as a present possession, even though clearly we await the day of our entrance into the life of the Age to come, whether by resurrection for those already dead, or the rapture of the living, when Christ returns. God calls the things that are not as though they already exist (Rom. 4:17). Clearly, in Hebrew thinking, the glory which Jesus had “with” God before the world was, it is the glory that it was present in God's mind and purpose from the beginning.

When we examine the rest of Jesus's prayer, it becomes quite clear that the glory Jesus claimed to have had “with the father before the world was” is a glory in prospect. Jesus is using the peculiar Hebrew way of thinking and speaking by which the past tense is employed to speak of the future. To confirm this all we need to do is follow Jesus’ prayer through. Jesus speaks as though he has already accomplished his work: he says I have “accomplished a work which you have gave me to do” (v.4). Quite obviously he has not actually finish the work because his crucifixion has not yet happened, and his cry from the cross, “It is finished,” has not yet been uttered. Next, Jesus speaks as though the disciples have already fully glorified him (through their preaching ministry) even though the resurrection has not yet happened: he prays, “I have been glorified in them” (v.10).

Jesus also says “I am no more in the world” (v.11) even though he clearly is still in the world. In his own mind, he is already, by faith in the father's promise, sitting in heaven having been resurrected. Jesus says he has already sent the disciples into the world to preach: he prays, “I have sent them into the world” (v.18), even though this did not fully happen until after the resurrection. Jesus prays for his disciples, and “for those also who[will] believed in me through their word” (v.20). That is, he prays for subsequent generations of Christians who will come to faith in Christ down the track. He prays that “the glory which You have given me I have given to them (v.22). He prays that all these believers “which you have given me” (the whole future community of faith) may behold my glory, which You have given me; for You did love [choose] me before the foundation of the world (v.24).

One day the Lord Jesus at his second coming will say to his own people, “Come, you who are blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world” (Matt 25:34). In Paul’s language this hope is “laid up for you in heaven” which means it is in God’s promise and plan and is certain of fulfillment (Col. 1:5). This hope is so certain that Paul can even speak of Christians as already glorified (Romans 8:29–30, noting the past tense). Indeed, this plan hatched in God’s mind “according to His own purpose in grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity” (2 Tim 1:9). Dunn, in his book, Christology in the Making p238 adds: “The gift was purposed ‘ages ago,’ unless we are to take it that the actual giving and receiving, ‘us’ and ‘Christ Jesus’ were all alike preexistent.” This hope of Christians entering into the age to come was “promised long ages ago” (Tit 1:2). Dunn continues p238.

“Here it is even clearer that what is thought of as happening “ages ago” is God’s promise; and it is that promise of eternal life which has been manifested. Indeed, the text says it is his word that he has manifested - that is, not Christ the Logos, but the word of promise, fulfilled in Christ and offered now back in the kerygma [ message]. In other words, we are back where we started – Christ as the content of the word of preaching, the embodiment of the predetermined plan of salvation, the fulfillment of the divine purpose.”

Hope the helps,
Paul