"Before Abraham Was, I AM"

[bdavidc]

The scripture I gave are stand-alone, without my influence or any artificial input. There's been no attempt to read-into scripture either. I have more of the same if you do not like the sound of those given here. You also might have just shown your true colors, as you apparently will only select and approve scripture that you deem supportive of a belief system not found in scripture.

Anyway, I would not get too bend out shape over it. Who am I to dictate what you should believe anyway. Pick and choose the verses you like and put aside the rest. I really do not care, as I'm not qualified to judge anyone, including yourself.

Later then...

This is no longer a method dispute. What is being taught here is denying who Jesus Christ is as revealed in Scripture, and that is a salvation issue. The Bible never says Jesus was only humbled or subordinate in nature. It clearly says the Word was God and became flesh. ~John 1:1, ~John 1:14. It has Jesus receiving worship and not correcting them. ~Matthew 14:33. It has Thomas addressing Jesus directly as “my Lord and my God” which Jesus affirmed. ~John 20:28. Scripture is clear that redefining Jesus into something less than who He is amounts to rejecting Him.

This is important because Scripture also binds salvation to believing the true Christ. Jesus said, unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins. ~John 8:24. John says whoever denies the Son does not have the Father. ~1 John 2:22–23. Paul says presenting “another Jesus” is putting souls in peril. ~2 Corinthians 11:4. A Christ who is not fully God cannot save because only God forgives sins and Scripture shows Jesus doing exactly that. ~Isaiah 43:25; ~Mark 2:5–7.

This needs to be said for the sake of any who read this, plainly. Denying or making less the full deity of Jesus Christ is not biblical Christianity. The Bible leaves no uncertainty about who Jesus Christ is, and that witness remains for all who are willing to hear it.

 

[bdavidc]

@Ronald David Bruno Here's a commentary on the Son, being like or equal with his Father, who is the one God. I said this subject stood out and I wanted to get to it...I did not address John 10:30 per se, although its interpretation is of the same as the other scripture, in spirit.

I did not address John 10:30 in this commentary. I shall add something at the end for John 10:30, real time, with some haste.

Yeshua like or equal to God​

Yeshua’s statements and actions in the Gospel of John indicates a unique, exalted role rather than divine equality in essence or nature of his Father. When Yeshua is described as being "equal with God" in John 5:18, the context reveals that the local religious authorities perceived him as claiming divine prerogatives—such as performing works on the Sabbath and referring to God as his own Father—actions they believed only God could legitimately perform. However, this perception does not equate to Yeshua claiming to be God in substance or essence or nature, but rather asserting a delegated authority as an agent and a unique relationship with his Father.

This is supported by Yeshua consistently affirming his dependence on the Father, stating, “The Son can do nothing by himself, unless he sees the Father doing it” (John 5:19), and “I can do nothing on my own” (John 5:30).

This functional and real dependence is thus seen as wholly incompatible with full, independent deity. Such statements are affirming a subordinate role, where Yeshua acts in accordance with the Father’s will and is empowered by Him. Again, Yeshua is employed as God’s agent as he also has his Father’s word literally inside of him.

In John 17:3, Jesus refers to the Father as “the only true God” and himself as “whom you have sent,” supporting the view that only the Father is the true God, and Jesus is a distinct, created agent.

In Philippians 2:6–8, where Jesus is said to have “emptied himself” and taken the form of a servant, is evidence that he did not possess a so-called pre-existent divine nature but was exalted after his obedience and death. The exaltation of Yeshua to the highest place and the bestowal of the name above every name (Philippians 2:9) is seen as a reward for his obedience, not a reconfirmation of his inherent divinity.

In John 3:13, where Yeshua says, “No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man,” it is argued that this statement is cryptic and not a literal claim to pre-existence, but rather a way of emphasizing, via idioms, his unique divine commission and authority as the Messiah, not a claim to be God. The language of the Gospel of John, while rich in symbolism, should be interpreted in light of the broader biblical context, which consistently presents God as one, and Yeshua as a human being uniquely anointed and elevated by God for his purpose of executing his plan of salvation through his Son.

(Joh 5:18) For this cause the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath law, but he called God his own Father, making himself seem like God.

(Joh 5:19) Jesus therefore answered and said to them: Truly, truly, I say to you: The Son can do nothing of himself but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever works He does, these the Son does in like manner.

(Joh 5:30) I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is righteous, because I seek not my own will, but the will of Him that sent me.

(Joh 17:3) And this is everlasting life, that they should know You, the only true God, and him whom You sent, Jesus Christ.

(Php 2:6) Who, though being in the mental image of God, did not consider grasping at being equal with God,

(Php 2:7) but poured himself out, taking the mental attitude of a servant, and was the made just the same as all ordinary men.

(Php 2:8) And being perceived as a normal man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
------------------------------------------------

(Joh 3:13) No one has ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven.

(Joh 10:24) The Jews surrounded him and said to him: How long do you hold us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.

(Joh 10:25) Jesus answered them: I told you and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, these testify of me.

(Joh 10:26) But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep.

(Joh 10:27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me.

(Joh 10:28) And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.

(Joh 10:29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

(Joh 10:30) I and the Father are one.

John 10:30 carries a similar meaning and understanding as the scripture mentioned above. They complement each other. The context here is very important. Take note of the initial question by the religious leaders, the familiar question, "Are you the Messiah?" (verse 24c). It is important to observe that the question was not "Are you God?" Yeshua clarified how he and his Father work together as one in purpose, but not in nature or essence. The authorities either did not comprehend or believe that the word of God, the logos of God, was present in Yeshua and operated within him closely. Many Christians also miss this crucial point, elevating Yeshua as a deity or divine being instead of recognizing that God, his Father, was always in his Son. Yeshua stated that all his work was his Father's work, as he approved it (verse 25b). Finally, Yeshua provides an example of how he and his Father are one (verses 27-29). His Father gives his chosen ones to his Son, and his Son cares for and protects them to grant them eternal life, like a good shepherd..

These verses do not indicate that Yeshua claims to be God, like his Father. Nothing could be further from the truth.
------------------

Later dude..

This teaching is false and dangerous. Scripture never presents Jesus as a merely exalted human agent or a created being. It says plainly that the Word was God and became flesh ~John 1:1; ~John 1:14. It says the Son existed in the form of God before taking the form of a servant ~Philippians 2:6–7. It says all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily ~Colossians 2:9. The Father Himself addresses the Son as God and declares His throne eternal ~Hebrews 1:8.

Statements about Christ’s submission and obedience describe His incarnate mission, not a denial of His divine nature. Scripture holds both truths together without contradiction. Redefining Jesus as less than fully God is not biblical interpretation. It is a rejection of who He is as God has revealed Him.

This matters because Scripture ties salvation to believing the true Christ. Jesus said, unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins ~John 8:24. John writes that whoever denies the Son does not have the Father ~1 John 2:22–23.

The Bible leaves no confusion about who Jesus Christ is.

 

[amigo de christo]

No. I am not playing word-trap games. Scripture is not a courtroom trick where you get to force yes or no answers while ignoring everything else God has said. Jesus shut that tactic down every time it was used because it is dishonest ~Matthew 22:46.

Your questions are designed to make someone deny either the incarnation or the deity of Christ. I will do neither. The Bible says Jesus humbled Himself and submitted in His earthly mission, and the Bible also says He is fully God, eternal, Creator, and worthy of worship ~Philippians 2:6; ~Colossians 2:9; ~Hebrews 1:8. I affirm all of it.

This has already been answered. I am standing on Scripture. You are trying to slice it until it fits your system. I will not cooperate with that.

I see you saw what he was doing . Good .
They try and always set traps and the terms for how WE ourselves are to do and to say t hings .
The TRUTH is very powerful and they must always try and avoid it . For they cannot ov ercome it .
Thus the cards come into action . Be it victim card , oppresor card , hater card , the judge not correct not card .
THE TRUTH simply cannot be overcome , so with cards they DO AVOID IT and play on emotions and tatics .
But the sheep do not hear or heed them .
Society now sets the rules by which the peoples must operate .
And so too was this done within a lot of christendom.
But sheep do not play by the tatics set of men . SHEEP simply speak and type TRUTH .
DO you remember when the big LET the church try and reason by science
NOT the bible . THE day the church adopted this was the day it lost all power of true evangelising
as it was led into the tatics of men on how to do . Big mistake . This was seen very large in the seeker friendly
movement and men like rick warren and his purpose driven life . AS IF the tatics of men
SUPERCEDE the PATTERN and WORK of GOD. Many have no idea
they were taught the patterns of men . For many know not the POWER of GOD .
WE simply speak and do as HE leads us to speak and do . And we stay well planted in the Holy scriptures
for upon the hearts of the sheep has been planted the LOVE OF TRUTH , not the twisting of it to fit the f lesh .

 

[amigo de christo]

This teaching is false and dangerous. Scripture never presents Jesus as a merely exalted human agent or a created being. It says plainly that the Word was God and became flesh ~John 1:1; ~John 1:14. It says the Son existed in the form of God before taking the form of a servant ~Philippians 2:6–7. It says all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily ~Colossians 2:9. The Father Himself addresses the Son as God and declares His throne eternal ~Hebrews 1:8.

Statements about Christ’s submission and obedience describe His incarnate mission, not a denial of His divine nature. Scripture holds both truths together without contradiction. Redefining Jesus as less than fully God is not biblical interpretation. It is a rejection of who He is as God has revealed Him.

This matters because Scripture ties salvation to believing the true Christ. Jesus said, unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins ~John 8:24. John writes that whoever denies the Son does not have the Father ~1 John 2:22–23.

The Bible leaves no confusion about who Jesus Christ is.

and why do you think this was in large brought upon and within Christendom.
TO MERGE ALL RELIGOINS
JESUS himself would have to be molded into an image of Just another exalted prophet or etc .
NOT WHO HE TRULY IS .
You cant have the merger of the religions , IF ONE RELIGION stands out
AS ITS Savoir , its prophet , BEING MORE than just another prophet , BEING THE VERY WORD
Because IF that true version OF JESUS is t aught .
THEN it makes WHAT HE SAID ABOSOLUTE TRUTH .
In other words the religoins have to be seen as co equals , as all hav ing prophets
who simply preached similiar messages that pointed to GOD .
SO you cannot have ONE saying and making the cliam BEFORE ABRAHAM was I AM .
Because that exalts that religoin above the o thers in their minds .
THE DIETY of JESUS had to be removed IN ORDER to merge all the religoins to be as one . OH i know
ITS ALL OF ANTI CHRIST they did this . THe sheep will not heed them either .

 

[keithr]

No man or angel could take on the sins of the world; past, present and future ( in trillions and btw knowledge of each one of them) AND WASH THEM AWAY UNLESS HE WAS GOD.

No man could pay the redemption price (the life of a perfect man) because all men were imperfect and sinful in nature (which they inherited from Adam). God therefore chose to provide a perfect human body for His only begotten Son - Hebrews 10:5 (WEB):

(5) Therefore when he comes into the world, he says, “Sacrifice and offering you didn’t desire, but you prepared a body for me.​

He chose His only Son rather than an angel so that Jesus "in all things he might have the preeminence" (Colossians 1:18 WEB). This was God's solution, so you are mistaken to claim that nobody could take on the sins of the world except God. Romans 5:15,18 (WEB):

(15) But the free gift isn’t like the trespass. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.​

​

(18) So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.​

NO ONE COULD BE GIVEN ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH UNLESS HE POSSESED OMNISCIENCE, OMNIPRESENCE AND OMNIPOTENCE.

If you have to be given authority then you are not almighty God. It is like the type of Joseph. Pharaoh, a type for God, gave Joseph, a type for Jesus, all authority throughout his kingdom (a type of the whole earth, or the whole of God's kingdom). Only in the throne was Pharaoh greater, but he was greater and still had higher authority and authority over Joseph. Joseph was not Pharaoh!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

@JustMe I can't let this go and so for the benefit of others, I'll close with a final rebuttal

You said: Yeshua like or equal to God
Yeshua’s statements and actions in the Gospel of John indicates a unique, exalted role rather than divine equality in essence or nature of his Father. When Yeshua is described as being "equal with God" in John 5:18, the context reveals that the local religious authorities perceived him as claiming divine prerogatives—such as performing works on the Sabbath and referring to God as his own Father—actions they believed only God could legitimately perform.
However, this perception does not equate to Yeshua claiming to be God in substance or essence or nature, but rather asserting a delegated authority as an agent and a unique relationship with his Father.

Rebuttal
EQUAL MEANS EQUAL IN ALL WAYS, DEITY, PURPOSE, POWER AND GLORY. The power and glory he set aside, relinquished as a man, to be a humble servant.

You said: This is supported by Yeshua consistently affirming his dependence on the Father, stating, “The Son can do nothing by himself, unless he sees the Father doing it” (John 5:19), and “I can do nothing on my own” (John 5:30).

Rebuttal
His role as a man was to be a servant, a sacficial lamb, obedient, showing us the way to connect with God. He fulfilled the Law and was our High Priest, accomplished his mission as a man.
We call Him the God/man, having voted natures. Upon His resurrection, the Father returned Jesus glory to Him as He had before the foundation of the earth. John 17:3, "...To know You the only true God" doesn't stop there. "AND the one whom you have sent", puts Jesus on equal level of importance again. Grasping His equality with God is something the Spirit reveals in time.

You said: In Philippians 2:6–8, where Jesus is said to have “emptied himself” and taken the form of a servant, is evidence that he did not possess a so-called pre-existent divine nature but was exalted after his obedience and death.

Rebuttal
Nope. HIS GLORY was displayed on the Mt. Of Transfiguration BEFORE His death and resurrection. To confirm His deity He said, "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was".
John 17:5
>>You evidently don't understand what His glory means.

You said: In John 3:13, where Yeshua says, “No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man,” it is argued that this statement is cryptic and not a literal claim to pre-existence, but rather a way of emphasizing, via idioms, his unique divine commission and authority as the Messiah, not a claim to be God. The language of the Gospel of John, while rich in symbolism,...

 Rebuttal
Oh my, not taking plain scripture literally.? Cryptic ... symbolic?
*** The golden rule of Biblical interpretation is:
[When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense." This means taking words at their primary, literal meaning unless context, related passages, or fundamental truths clearly show it's figurative or symbolic, emphasizing understanding the author's original intent and avoiding excessive spiritualizing or subjective interpretation.]
But of course you can't take that literally, you have been fed lies from Satan. This is right out of out the Non-Trinitarian playbook, to refute and deny anything literal that conflicts with your view by symbolizing, twisting and distorting it's meaning.

You quoted: (Joh 5:18) For this cause the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath law, but he called God his own Father, making himself seem like God.
(Joh 5:19) Jesus therefore answered and said to them: Truly, truly, I say to you: The Son can do nothing of himself but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever works He does, these the Son does in like manner.
(Joh 5:30) I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is righteous, because I seek not my own will, but the will of Him that sent me.

Rebuttal
Absolutely, these statements show that He is equal to the Father, does everything He does and nothing more AND nothing less.
No man or angel could make these claims!

You quoted: (Phil. 2:6) Who, though being in the "mental image" of God, did not consider grasping at being equal with God,

 Rebuttal
"Mental image"? What version is that?
The Greek word is "morphe", meaning "form of" God. Again, distorting the meaning.

You quoted and said: (Joh 3:13) No one has ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven.
(Joh 10:24) The Jews surrounded him and said to him: How long do you hold us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.
(Joh 10:25) Jesus answered them: I told you and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, these testify of me.
(Joh 10:30) I and the Father are one.
John 10:24 "Are you the Messiah?" It is important to observe that the question was not "Are you God?"

Rebuttal
The Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah/ Savior coming never fully revealed His nature. It was left mysterious. The " I Am" in Exodus 3:14, was a vague, mysterious and incomplete identification for a purpose; it was just an introduction. It would be revealed more fully throughout the OT but not completely until Jesus came. Hense all the I am's in the Book of John revealed who He was more clearly: the Light, the Savior, Messiah, the Way, the Truth, the Life, the Bread, the Door, the Resurrection, Good Shepherd, Before Abraham was I AM. In Revelation He says I am the Alpha and Omega. In Isaiah 43:11, God declares, "I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no savior,"
Yet the New Testament claims that Jesus is the Savior. Are we to believe there are two saviors??? No, that is the pre-incarnate Jesus, who is God speaking to Isaiah.

You said: Yeshua clarified how he and his Father work together as one in purpose, but not in nature or essence.

Rebuttal
Wrong again, twisting; distorting truth, denying the fullness of His statement.

You said: The authorities either did not comprehend or believe that the word of God, the logos of God, was present in Yeshua and operated within him closely. Many Christians also miss this crucial point, elevating Yeshua as a deity or divine being instead of recognizing that God, his Father, was always in his Son.

 Rebuttal
Jesus is the logos.
The logos is God. The plain meaning is again distorted by Non-Trinitarians.
What hacks!

 

[JustMe]

and why do you think this was in large brought upon and within Christendom.
TO MERGE ALL RELIGOINS
JESUS himself would have to be molded into an image of Just another exalted prophet or etc .
NOT WHO HE TRULY IS .
You cant have the merger of the religions , IF ONE RELIGION stands out
AS ITS Savoir , its prophet , BEING MORE than just another prophet , BEING THE VERY WORD
Because IF that true version OF JESUS is t aught .
THEN it makes WHAT HE SAID ABOSOLUTE TRUTH .
In other words the religoins have to be seen as co equals , as all hav ing prophets
who simply preached similiar messages that pointed to GOD .
SO you cannot have ONE saying and making the cliam BEFORE ABRAHAM was I AM .
Because that exalts that religoin above the o thers in their minds .
THE DIETY of JESUS had to be removed IN ORDER to merge all the religoins to be as one . OH i know
ITS ALL OF ANTI CHRIST they did this . THe sheep will not heed them either .

Let me be quite formal in my reply for such a regal treat you have presented me with, friend.

You return with two additional spirits in pursuit of greater truth. It seems this pursuit may be contagious, or perhaps it is a contagion. Nevertheless, I find this acceptable.

Let us address your unfortunate tendency to frequently chastise specific individuals while branding them as possessing the spirit of the antichrist, shall we? I am inclined to believe that this accusation pertains to you, my friend, as well as to many other members of the near-future world religious orthodox church organization that you so greatly fear and oppose. The irony of this situation is not lost on me.

Allow scripture to resonate with you once more, along with the witness of the Spirit of a genuine believer in Christ, Yeshua.

(1Jn 4:2) By this you may recognize the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God.

(1Jn 4:3) Conversely, every spirit that does not acknowledge that Jesus has come in the flesh is not of God; such spirits are identified as belonging to the antichrist, of whom you have been informed and who is already present in the world.

(1Jn 4:4) You are of God, dear children, and you have triumphed over them, for greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

(1Jn 4:5) These individuals are of the world; therefore, they speak from a worldly perspective, and the world listens to them.

(1Jn 4:6) We are of God. Those who know God listen to us; those who are not of God do not listen to us. By this, we discern the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Yeshua, during His time on earth, was conceived with flesh, blood, and bones, accompanied by His own human spirit (Luke 24:39). His spirit once inhabited His created physical human body, and today, His spirit resides within His newly created immortal body—both crafted by His Father, the one and only God. Yeshua is not merely spirit; God exists solely as spirit, without a human body, and He has never been a human being (Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29, John 4:24).

The crux of 1 John 4:2b and 3a is that anyone who denies the existence of Yeshua as a man, a human individual with His own spirit—rather than a god, a hybrid, or a god-man—possesses a spirit that opposes Christ and is not of God. Are you among such individuals, my friend?

1 John 4:4 affirms that one is a child of God if they acknowledge that Yeshua existed as a human being and not as a god-man.

(1Jn 5:1) ...God’s Children: Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God; and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.

The verse 1 John 4:4 is directly associated with 1 John 5:1a, indicating that those who affirm the positive declaration described in the aforementioned scripture are indeed of God. Consequently, it follows that the reverse must be true for those who deny this affirmation; they are not of God and, thus, stand in opposition to the spirit of the Messiah.

The belief in the existence of Jesus and His divine origin from his Father, who is the only God, suggests that Jesus cannot be equated with God Himself. The notion of Jesus being sent by His God implies a distinction between the two; thus, Jesus is not God Himself. For instance, Jesus is documented as stating, “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17:3). This statement is interpreted by some as a clear distinction between Jesus and the one true God, the Father.

In John 17:3, it is articulated: “And this is everlasting life, that they should know You, the only true God, and him whom You sent, Jesus Christ.”

Furthermore, in John 8:54, Jesus states, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, whom you say is your God.” It is noteworthy that Jesus acknowledges His God as His Father, and the Pharisees do not react when Jesus implies that they share this same God. This suggests that the Pharisees never considered Jesus to be God, nor did they entertain the notion that He made such a claim; that idea would be quite absurd.

Therefore, I pose the question to you: Do you believe that Yeshua possesses a purely human nature, unblemished and immortalized in His glorified body and spirit today, or do you perceive Him as a hybrid, a kind of superhuman, or perhaps a mythological entity of an indistinct nature?

 

[JustMe]

@JustMe I can't let this go and so for the benefit of others, I'll close with a final rebuttal

You said: Yeshua like or equal to God
Yeshua’s statements and actions in the Gospel of John indicates a unique, exalted role rather than divine equality in essence or nature of his Father. When Yeshua is described as being "equal with God" in John 5:18, the context reveals that the local religious authorities perceived him as claiming divine prerogatives—such as performing works on the Sabbath and referring to God as his own Father—actions they believed only God could legitimately perform.
However, this perception does not equate to Yeshua claiming to be God in substance or essence or nature, but rather asserting a delegated authority as an agent and a unique relationship with his Father.

Rebuttal
EQUAL MEANS EQUAL IN ALL WAYS, DEITY, PURPOSE, POWER AND GLORY. The power and glory he set aside, relinquished as a man, to be a humble servant.

You said: This is supported by Yeshua consistently affirming his dependence on the Father, stating, “The Son can do nothing by himself, unless he sees the Father doing it” (John 5:19), and “I can do nothing on my own” (John 5:30).

Rebuttal
His role as a man was to be a servant, a sacficial lamb, obedient, showing us the way to connect with God. He fulfilled the Law and was our High Priest, accomplished his mission as a man.
We call Him the God/man, having voted natures. Upon His resurrection, the Father returned Jesus glory to Him as He had before the foundation of the earth. John 17:3, "...To know You the only true God" doesn't stop there. "AND the one whom you have sent", puts Jesus on equal level of importance again. Grasping His equality with God is something the Spirit reveals in time.

You said: In Philippians 2:6–8, where Jesus is said to have “emptied himself” and taken the form of a servant, is evidence that he did not possess a so-called pre-existent divine nature but was exalted after his obedience and death.

Rebuttal
Nope. HIS GLORY was displayed on the Mt. Of Transfiguration BEFORE His death and resurrection. To confirm His deity He said, "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was".
John 17:5
>>You evidently don't understand what His glory means.

You said: In John 3:13, where Yeshua says, “No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man,” it is argued that this statement is cryptic and not a literal claim to pre-existence, but rather a way of emphasizing, via idioms, his unique divine commission and authority as the Messiah, not a claim to be God. The language of the Gospel of John, while rich in symbolism,...

 Rebuttal
Oh my, not taking plain scripture literally.? Cryptic ... symbolic?
*** The golden rule of Biblical interpretation is:
[When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense." This means taking words at their primary, literal meaning unless context, related passages, or fundamental truths clearly show it's figurative or symbolic, emphasizing understanding the author's original intent and avoiding excessive spiritualizing or subjective interpretation.]
But of course you can't take that literally, you have been fed lies from Satan. This is right out of out the Non-Trinitarian playbook, to refute and deny anything literal that conflicts with your view by symbolizing, twisting and distorting it's meaning.

You quoted: (Joh 5:18) For this cause the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath law, but he called God his own Father, making himself seem like God.
(Joh 5:19) Jesus therefore answered and said to them: Truly, truly, I say to you: The Son can do nothing of himself but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever works He does, these the Son does in like manner.
(Joh 5:30) I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is righteous, because I seek not my own will, but the will of Him that sent me.

Rebuttal
Absolutely, these statements show that He is equal to the Father, does everything He does and nothing more AND nothing less.
No man or angel could make these claims!

You quoted: (Phil. 2:6) Who, though being in the "mental image" of God, did not consider grasping at being equal with God,

 Rebuttal
"Mental image"? What version is that?
The Greek word is "morphe", meaning "form of" God. Again, distorting the meaning.

You quoted and said: (Joh 3:13) No one has ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven.
(Joh 10:24) The Jews surrounded him and said to him: How long do you hold us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.
(Joh 10:25) Jesus answered them: I told you and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, these testify of me.
(Joh 10:30) I and the Father are one.
John 10:24 "Are you the Messiah?" It is important to observe that the question was not "Are you God?"

Rebuttal
The Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah/ Savior coming never fully revealed His nature. It was left mysterious. The " I Am" in Exodus 3:14, was a vague, mysterious and incomplete identification for a purpose; it was just an introduction. It would be revealed more fully throughout the OT but not completely until Jesus came. Hense all the I am's in the Book of John revealed who He was more clearly: the Light, the Savior, Messiah, the Way, the Truth, the Life, the Bread, the Door, the Resurrection, Good Shepherd, Before Abraham was I AM. In Revelation He says I am the Alpha and Omega. In Isaiah 43:11, God declares, "I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no savior,"
Yet the New Testament claims that Jesus is the Savior. Are we to believe there are two saviors??? No, that is the pre-incarnate Jesus, who is God speaking to Isaiah.

You said: Yeshua clarified how he and his Father work together as one in purpose, but not in nature or essence.

Rebuttal
Wrong again, twisting; distorting truth, denying the fullness of His statement.

You said: The authorities either did not comprehend or believe that the word of God, the logos of God, was present in Yeshua and operated within him closely. Many Christians also miss this crucial point, elevating Yeshua as a deity or divine being instead of recognizing that God, his Father, was always in his Son.

 Rebuttal
Jesus is the logos.
The logos is God. The plain meaning is again distorted by Non-Trinitarians.
What hacks!

Lost in Space again Ronald. It was a great show although it was only great fiction, like your rebuttal post here.

You rebuttals lack comprehension and sophistication as you lack depth in even understanding and articulating the simpler ideas or words that are not even found or suggested in scripture. Like "Equal' means equal in all ways,...."
-----------------------------the full version you wrote below--------
Rebuttal
EQUAL MEANS EQUAL IN ALL WAYS, DEITY, PURPOSE, POWER AND GLORY. The power and glory he set aside, relinquished as a man, to be a humble servant.
---------------------------------
What, is this kindergarten hour? You are making this up as you go....where in scripture does it say the power and glory he set aside...this is pure fiction, groundless and not even great entertainment...are you proud of it...

 

[JustMe]

This teaching is false and dangerous. Scripture never presents Jesus as a merely exalted human agent or a created being. It says plainly that the Word was God and became flesh ~John 1:1; ~John 1:14. It says the Son existed in the form of God before taking the form of a servant ~Philippians 2:6–7. It says all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily ~Colossians 2:9. The Father Himself addresses the Son as God and declares His throne eternal ~Hebrews 1:8.

Statements about Christ’s submission and obedience describe His incarnate mission, not a denial of His divine nature. Scripture holds both truths together without contradiction. Redefining Jesus as less than fully God is not biblical interpretation. It is a rejection of who He is as God has revealed Him.

This matters because Scripture ties salvation to believing the true Christ. Jesus said, unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins ~John 8:24. John writes that whoever denies the Son does not have the Father ~1 John 2:22–23.

The Bible leaves no confusion about who Jesus Christ is.

And why are you still very much confused?

"....describe His incarnate mission, not a denial of His divine nature..." where in scripture does it speak this strange beast of text? You are fantasizing again... Incarnate mission, indeed.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Lost in Space again Ronald. It was a great show although it was only great fiction, like your rebuttal post here.

You rebuttals lack comprehension and sophistication as you lack depth in even understanding and articulating the simpler ideas or words that are not even found or suggested in scripture. Like "Equal' means equal in all ways,...."
-----------------------------the full version you wrote below--------
Rebuttal
EQUAL MEANS EQUAL IN ALL WAYS, DEITY, PURPOSE, POWER AND GLORY. The power and glory he set aside, relinquished as a man, to be a humble servant.
---------------------------------
What, is this kindergarten hour? You are making this up as you go....where in scripture does it say the power and glory he set aside...this is pure fiction, groundless and not even great entertainment...are you proud of it...

No, a slam dunk is what I call it! Remember, 97% of Christianity believes that Jesus is God. You're filled with the fiction, not me.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings Ronald David Bruno,

Remember, 97% of Christianity believes that Jesus is God.

Interesting logic, but the majority are not always correct. On the basis of your logic as to your assessment of "Christianity" we should all join with the RCC and worship and pray to Mary as the Queen of Heaven and say the Rosary and thus live together in peace and harmony.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Greetings Ronald David Bruno,

Interesting logic, but the majority are not always correct. On the basis of your logic as to your assessment of "Christianity" we should all join with the RCC and worship and pray to Mary as the Queen of Heaven and say the Rosary and thus live together in peace and harmony.

Kind regards
Trevor

I think it's more like 50/50 Catholic to Protestant. But even so, I do not believe they worship Mary. Ask any Catholic or priest, they would not agree that they worship Mary. They revere her, may pray to her or the saints (to intercede on their behalf), which Protestants believe are empty prayers and that we only need to pray directly to God, the Father/Son/ Holy Spirit.
The idea that Mary is Queen of heaven is false. She fulfilled her purpose on earth and that was it. As for Catholics, it's veneration, not worship towards Mary.
But really, being mistaken about misdirected prayers, as much of an error that ot is, it's small change compared to being in error about the nature of the Son of God, who He really is and our worship towards Him. And that is the point; if you do notnthink He is God, than why would you worship Him or even bow a knee?
Because you do not, it is a dishonor to Him. If you dishonor the Son, you dishonor the Father. I worship Christ equally as I do the Father and Holy Spirit.

 

[bro.tan]

Something that came to me that blew my socks off:

"Before Abraham Was, I AM" (Jn.8:58)

I had never understood this but suddenly tonight I believe the meaning came to me. Why did Jesus say I AM? Why didn't he just say I was? I think the answer is that God inhabits eternity. He cannot say I was, or I will be as God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He never changes. God is outside time!

Let's take another look at it again, an I want to add a scripture to it. In (John 8:56-59) When Jesus was speaking to some of the Jews saying (v.56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him (Jesus) thou are not yet fifty years old and hast thou seen Abraham. Now listen closely how Jesus answered. Jesus said unto them verily, verily I say unto you, before Abraham was I am. I am, not I will be, or I was, but I am. That's forever present, the one who became known as Jesus was always around, he is the member of the Godhead that became known as the Son. Let’s go into Exodus 3: 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel,
I AM hath sent me unto you.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Ronald David Bruno,

And that is the point; if you do not think He is God, than why would you worship Him or even bow a knee?
Because you do not, it is a dishonor to Him.

I am not interested in a full discussion, and consider that I have given sufficient in support of my understanding of Exodus 3:14 and some indication of my view of John 8:58. Yes, I bow the knee to Jesus as per the following and this is in honour and to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2:8-11 (KJV): 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Aunty Jane]

No, a slam dunk is what I call it! Remember, 97% of Christianity believes that Jesus is God. You're filled with the fiction, not me.

Be careful Ronald.....97% of those professing Christianity could be wrong....what percentage of Jews accepted Jesus, and preferred instead to believe the Pharisees? Wasn’t it the majority?

Doesn’t that tie in with Jesus’ statement that “few” are on the road to life, whereas the “many” were travelling a whole other road to a destination that they were not prepared for? (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23)
Their preferred ignorance is no excuse.

Nothing in a world ruled by the devil is as it appears on the surface......it requires a shovel for digging to get to the truth. The treasure is hidden, not lying around for people to trip over.....but buried....so who buried it? I’ll give you a clue....it wasn’t God.

1 Cor 10:12 also has a place here....

 

[JustMe]

Greetings again Ronald David Bruno,

I am not interested in a full discussion, and consider that I have given sufficient in support of my understanding of Exodus 3:14 and some indication of my view of John 8:58. Yes, I bow the knee to Jesus as per the following and this is in honour and to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2:8-11 (KJV): 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Kind regards
Trevor

Yes, genuine Christians bow to our lord Yeshua FOR the glory of God, and as commanded by our Father, the same one God, Amen and Amen
If one bows down and 'worships' Yeshua for another reason, say because they think he is God, then it's an empty and useless act that does not glorify God. It brings dishonor and even contempt to the Father, who is God.

 

[Davy]

Yes, genuine Christians bow to our lord Yeshua FOR the glory of God, and as commanded by our Father, the same one God, Amen and Amen
If one bows down and 'worships' Yeshua for another reason, say because they think he is God, then it's an empty and useless act that does not glorify God. It brings dishonor and even contempt to the Father, who is God.

God's Word, even The Old Testament Scriptures, declares The Christ-Messiah as GOD.

Heb 1:8
8 But unto the Son He saith, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom."
KJV

Ps 45:6
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
KJV

Matthew 1:23 declares Jesus of Nazareth as Emmanuel which means 'God with us'.


Thus your traditions of JUDAISM doesn't work here on a Christian forum. If you do not believe that Jesus of Nazareth is The Christ - Messiah, then it means you have no Salvation. That because the name, 'The Christ' is part of The Godhead. And Jesus of Nazareth is... The Christ of Old Testament prophecy.

 

[Davy]

Those who do not believe that Jesus of Nazareth is Immanuel God with us, follow men's doctrines instead of heeding what God Himself in His Word says about it.

1 John 4:2-3
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
KJV

The above verse Apostle John points directly to the fact that God came in the flesh as Jesus of Nazareth. The title of The Christ - Messiah refers to the "Immanuel" of Isaiah 7:14 who was prophesied to be born of a virgin. And that title of "Immanuel" per Matthew 1:23 means 'God with us'. This is what Apostle John is pointing to in the above Scripture.


In that same Book of Isaiah, later in Chapter 9, the following is also said about The Christ Who was to be born of a virgin...

Isa 9:6-7
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

That title "The Prince of Peace" is especially an important identifier only about The Christ, The Son of God.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
KJV

That "upon the throne of David" also is an identifier that applies only to The Christ, for as written, Christ is to inherit the throne of His earthly flesh grandfather David (Acts 2:30; Luke 1:30-32).



Notice in that Isaiah 9:6 verse Christ is called, "The mighty God, The everlasting Father".

The Jews especially struggle with that Old Testament Scripture, trying to remove its direct references to Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, The Son of God, Immanuel 'God with us'.

It should be very easy to understand that Lord Jesus of Nazareth is not simply about a flesh born man only, but literally about part of The Godhead born in the flesh to be the perfect sacrifice for sin for one and all time, and... to defeat death and the devil for us, as written. Could any of us ever do that for ourselves? NO! Otherwise we would not need Jesus Christ to save us. It is not flesh that saves us, it is God having come in the form of sinful flesh to die on the cross shedding His Blood for us who have believed on Jesus Christ and The Father that saves us.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Greetings again Ronald David Bruno,

I am not interested in a full discussion, and consider that I have given sufficient in support of my understanding of Exodus 3:14 and some indication of my view of John 8:58. Yes, I bow the knee to Jesus as per the following and this is in honour and to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2:8-11 (KJV): 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Kind regards
Trevor

Good, but folks throughout history bowed a knee to any and all kings. The real question is: Do you worship, praise, love and thank Jesus as you would our Father?
 Mayt. 2:11: Magi "fell down and worshiped Him" (Jesus as a baby).
 Matt. 28:17: After resurrection, "they worshiped Him, but some doubted".
 John 8:38: The healed blind man says, "Lord, I believe," and worships Jesus; Jesus accepts it.
 Revelation 5:13: All creation worships "Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb"
John 5:23: "That all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him".
Hebrews 1:6: The Father says, "Let all the angels of God worship him".

>>> Out Father honors and calls the Son God<<<

"But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God [Theos], is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom" Heb. 1:8

 

[JustMe]

God's Word, even The Old Testament Scriptures, declares The Christ-Messiah as GOD.

Heb 1:8
8 But unto the Son He saith, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom."
KJV

Ps 45:6
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
KJV

Matthew 1:23 declares Jesus of Nazareth as Emmanuel which means 'God with us'.


Thus your traditions of JUDAISM doesn't work here on a Christian forum. If you do not believe that Jesus of Nazareth is The Christ - Messiah, then it means you have no Salvation. That because the name, 'The Christ' is part of The Godhead. And Jesus of Nazareth is... The Christ of Old Testament prophecy.

I'm not interested in what you wrote, of one of many who cannot add anything beyond stating scripture verses and other one-liners. You have not a clue in what they all mean, as your endless confusing eschatological explanations that go nowhere.

And what may I ask is your outrageous highlighted last paragraph all about? Have you gone completely mad.

I would not continue to embarrass myself if I were you. Continue with this tripe, this type of posting in the future, this indecipherable, unintelligible, incomprehensible, indiscernible scribble and I will respond as a firm parent would to a spoiled and willful child.