Believe ALL of the Gospels

[whirlwind]

Shalom, whirlwind.


That's not precisely true. Miryam's (Mary's) lineage IS found in Luke 3, and her line was through David's son NATAN (NATHAN), not Shlomoh (Solomon)! It was Yosef (Joseph) who was an heir to Shlomoh (Solomon). Furthermore, neither the word for "husband" NOR for "father" is found in Matthew 1:16. It's the word "andros" meaning "a man." It's the Greek word from which we get "androgen," the male steroid hormone, and "android," which means "man-like." However, it IS the word that MEANS "husband" in practical, conversational Koinee Greek. It's like saying that "Joseph was Mary's MAN!" You dig?

[/QUOTE]
There is no need to jump through hoops trying to make it all fit. You dig?


Line of Joseph, husband of Mary and son of Heli (Joseph was the....as was supposed/step father of Jesus). Providing the legal link to king David.

Luke 3:23 And Jesus Himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,



Line of Mary, mother of Jesus...providing the blood lineage to king David.

Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

1:16-17 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.



"Husband," as you yourself pointed out...is translated from "man." Man can be husband, father or male. In this instance "man" was mistranslated as "Joseph the husband of Mary" and should read....Joseph the FATHER OF MARY. The error is understandable as the translators were aware of Joseph being Mary's husband. They neglected to count the "fourteen generations" which is only applicable if Joseph was the Father Of Mary...not husband. This is the blood lineage of Jesus through Mary.

Her father was named Joseph...as was her husband. Count the generations!

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, whirlwind.

There is no need to jump through hoops trying to make it all fit. You dig?


Line of Joseph, husband of Mary and son of Heli (Joseph was the....as was supposed/step father of Jesus). Providing the legal link to king David.

Luke 3:23 And Jesus Himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,



Line of Mary, mother of Jesus...providing the blood lineage to king David.

Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

1:16-17 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.



"Husband," as you yourself pointed out...is translated from "man." Man can be husband, father or male. In this instance "man" was mistranslated as "Joseph the husband of Mary" and should read....Joseph the FATHER OF MARY. The error is understandable as the translators were aware of Joseph being Mary's husband. They neglected to count the "fourteen generations" which is only applicable if Joseph was the Father Of Mary...not husband. This is the blood lineage of Jesus through Mary.

Her father was named Joseph...as was her husband. Count the generations!

If you want to disagree with me, that's fine. We can just agree to disagree without being disagreeable, but I still believe you've got it backwards. I've counted the generations. I've shown you how to count the generations, and by making Miryam's father "Yosef," you're essentially having to count Miryam in the list, too!
So, they were all men EXCEPT Miryam at the end! (?)

And, now, between Yosef and Miryam you have THREE fathers! Ya`aqov (Jacob), `Eeliy (Heli) and Yosef (Joseph)!

There WAS NO line back through the kings themselves! At least, no DIRECT lineage. The line of kings ended at the Captivity! However, the inheritance was passed to the relatives and it was through their lines that Yosef could lay claim to be in the kingly lineage.

Miryam had no kingly lineage except to say she was a descendant of Daveed. It was important for Yosef to carry that claim because the kingship was passed down through the males. Miryam's bloodline was to prove Yeshua`s JEWISH heritage.

Shalom, everyone.

Okay. Now, if we can PLEASE move on! Interruptions like these above serve only to derail the direction I was heading with this thread! Our understanding of Scriptures and our understanding of prophecy depends upon it!

Let's now look at the third chapter of Matthew:

Matthew 3:1-17
3:1 It was during those days that Yochanan the Immerser arrived in the desert of Y’hudah and began proclaiming the message, 2 “Turn from your sins to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near!” 3 This is the man Yesha‘yahu was talking about when he said,

“The voice of someone crying out:
‘In the desert prepare the way of Adonai!
Make straight paths for him!’” (Isaiah 40:3)

4 Yochanan wore clothes of camel’s hair with a leather belt around his waist, and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 People went out to him from Yerushalayim, from all Y’hudah, and from the whole region around the Yarden. 6 Confessing their sins, they were immersed by him in the Yarden River.

7 But when Yochanan saw many of the P’rushim and Tz’dukim coming to be immersed by him, he said to them, “You snakes! Who warned you to escape the coming punishment? 8 If you have really turned from your sins to God, produce fruit that will prove it! 9 And don’t suppose you can comfort yourselves by saying, ‘Avraham is our father’! For I tell you that God can raise up for Avraham sons from these stones! 10 Already the axe is at the root of the trees, ready to strike; every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown in the fire! 11 It’s true that I am immersing you in water so that you might turn from sin to God; but the one coming after me is more powerful than I — I’m not worthy even to carry his sandals — and he will immerse you in the Ruach HaKodesh and in fire. 12 He has with him his winnowing fork; and he will clear out his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn but burning up the straw with unquenchable fire!”

13 Then Yeshua came from the Galil to the Yarden to be immersed by Yochanan. 14 But Yochanan tried to stop him. “You are coming to me? I ought to be immersed by you!” 15 However, Yeshua answered him, “Let it be this way now, because we should do everything righteousness requires.” Then Yochanan let him. 16 As soon as Yeshua had been immersed, he came up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, he saw the Spirit of God coming down upon him like a dove, 17 and a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; I am well pleased with him.”
CJB

Notice that even here in this chapter about the baptism of Yochanan, that the crucial message is "Turn from your sins to God, for the Kingdom from the sky is near!"

 

[whirlwind]

Shalom, whirlwind.


If you want to disagree with me, that's fine. We can just agree to disagree without being disagreeable, but I still believe you've got it backwards. I've counted the generations. I've shown you how to count the generations, and by making Miryam's father "Yosef," you're essentially having to count Miryam in the list, too!
So, they were all men EXCEPT Miryam at the end! (?)

And, now, between Yosef and Miryam you have THREE fathers! Ya`aqov (Jacob), `Eeliy (Heli) and Yosef (Joseph)!

There WAS NO line back through the kings themselves! At least, no DIRECT lineage. The line of kings ended at the Captivity! However, the inheritance was passed to the relatives and it was through their lines that Yosef could lay claim to be in the kingly lineage.

Miryam had no kingly lineage except to say she was a descendant of Daveed. It was important for Yosef to carry that claim because the kingship was passed down through the males. Miryam's bloodline was to prove Yeshua`s JEWISH heritage.

The two lines given are that of Jesus and that of His step-father. The "as was supposed" or by law line giving legal right to the kingly line is through Joseph, Mary's husband. Luke IS NOT giving the genealogy of Christ but is of Joseph, the step-father to Christ. Joseph was the son of Heli and the account continues with the line of Joseph.

Luke 3:23 And Jesus Himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Then we see.....This is THE BOOK OF THE GENERATION OF JESUS CHRIST.


Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

1:2-6 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon; And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; And Jesse begat David the king; [snip]

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judas, Phares, Esrom, Aram, Aminadab, Naasson, Salmon, Booz, Obed, Jesse, David the king = 14 generations


1:6-12 and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias; And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa; And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias; And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias; And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias; And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat....[snip].

Solomon, Roboam, Abia, Asa, Josaphat, Joram, Ozias, Joatham, Achaz, Ezekias, Manasses, Amon, Josias, Jechonias, = 14 generations

1:12-16 begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel; And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor; And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud; And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.




Salathiel, Zorobabel, Abiud, Eliakim, Azor, Sadoc, Achim, Eliud, Eleazar, Matthan, Jacob, Joseph the HUSBAND of Mary, Christ = 13 generations


OR

Salathiel, Zorobabel, Abiud, Eliakim, Azor, Sadoc, Achim, Eliud, Eleazar, Matthan, Jacob, Joseph the FATHER OF MARY, Mary, Christ = 14 generations



1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

 

[guysmith]

Shalom whirlwind,

Long time no hear from. It has been 2-3 years since our paths have crossed.

Guy

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, whirlwind.

The two lines given are that of Jesus and that of His step-father. The "as was supposed" or by law line giving legal right to the kingly line is through Joseph, Mary's husband. Luke IS NOT giving the genealogy of Christ but is of Joseph, the step-father to Christ. Joseph was the son of Heli and the account continues with the line of Joseph.

Luke 3:23 And Jesus Himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Then we see.....This is THE BOOK OF THE GENERATION OF JESUS CHRIST.


Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

1:2-6 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon; And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; And Jesse begat David the king; [snip]

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judas, Phares, Esrom, Aram, Aminadab, Naasson, Salmon, Booz, Obed, Jesse, David the king = 14 generations


1:6-12 and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias; And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa; And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias; And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias; And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias; And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat....[snip].

Solomon, Roboam, Abia, Asa, Josaphat, Joram, Ozias, Joatham, Achaz, Ezekias, Manasses, Amon, Josias, Jechonias, = 14 generations

1:12-16 begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel; And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor; And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud; And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.




Salathiel, Zorobabel, Abiud, Eliakim, Azor, Sadoc, Achim, Eliud, Eleazar, Matthan, Jacob, Joseph the HUSBAND of Mary, Christ = 13 generations


OR

Salathiel, Zorobabel, Abiud, Eliakim, Azor, Sadoc, Achim, Eliud, Eleazar, Matthan, Jacob, Joseph the FATHER OF MARY, Mary, Christ = 14 generations



1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

Luke 3 doesn't contain the KINGLY line! The ONLY king mentioned in that lineage is David! Matthew 1 contains the kingly line! I don't suppose you've ever heard about the four Gospels being compared to the four faces of the keruviym (cherubim) in Ezekiel? Lion = Matthew, Ox = Mark, Man = Luke, and Eagle = John? Matthew shows Yeshua` as the King (the Lion of the Tribe of Y'hudah, the King of beasts); Mark shows Yeshua` as the Servant ("Take my yoke upon you"); Luke shows Yeshua` as the Man (particularly the Son of Man); and John shows Yeshua` as the majestic eagle representing the Son of God!

And, don't you see how you split verse 12? You didn't follow what the "Word of the Lord" was saying! You conveniently split it where God's Word said,...

Matthew 1:12
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat <SNIP!> (begat) Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
KJV

THERE'S your 14th! You started to count with "Salathiel" and IGNORED that the Word says "AFTER they were brought to Babylon, JECHONIAS begat Salathiel...!" So what if you've already counted him? SO DID MATTHEW! HE counted him twice FIRST!

 

[Dodo_David]

Folks, I have edited a few posts to remove what appeared to be personal attacks. Just doing my job.

Now, in the words of Sheriff Woody, "Play nice!"

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Dodo_David.

I apologize for my part in the above that forced your intervention. Just getting a little too frustrated by how many times I have to say the same thing; meanwhile, the thread is bogged down in a direction I do not wish it to go.

 

[whirlwind]

Shalom whirlwind,

Long time no hear from. It has been 2-3 years since our paths have crossed.

Guy

It is a pleasure to see you here Guysmith....Happy Thanksgiving

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, whirlwind.

It is a pleasure to see you here Guysmith....Happy Thanksgiving

Happy Thanksgivukkah! The one time in our lifetimes that we will see Chanukkah fall on Thanksgiving! So, give thanks to God for giving the Light of the world!

 

[whirlwind]

Shalom, whirlwind.


Luke 3 doesn't contain the KINGLY line! The ONLY king mentioned in that lineage is David! Matthew 1 contains the kingly line! I don't suppose you've ever heard about the four Gospels being compared to the four faces of the keruviym (cherubim) in Ezekiel? Lion = Matthew, Ox = Mark, Man = Luke, and Eagle = John? Matthew shows Yeshua` as the King (the Lion of the Tribe of Y'hudah, the King of beasts); Mark shows Yeshua` as the Servant ("Take my yoke upon you"); Luke shows Yeshua` as the Man (particularly the Son of Man); and John shows Yeshua` as the majestic eagle representing the Son of God!

And, don't you see how you split verse 12? You didn't follow what the "Word of the Lord" was saying! You conveniently split it where God's Word said,...

Matthew 1:12
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat <SNIP!> (begat) Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
KJV

THERE'S your 14th! You started to count with "Salathiel" and IGNORED that the Word says "AFTER they were brought to Babylon, JECHONIAS begat Salathiel...!" So what if you've already counted him? SO DID MATTHEW! HE counted him twice FIRST!

In saying "the kingly line" I am referring to king David as that is the connection that must be made to fulfill Scripture:

Matthew 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?


He was the "Son of David" legally through His step-father Joseph and He was the "Son of David" through His mother Mary...through her blood line!

As for splitting verse 12...it was split to count the 14 generations. Jechonias is the 14th in that generation. His son Salathiel was the 1st of the next 14.

11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren,(the end of 14 generations) about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; (the beginning of the next 14 generations) and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;

17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.


The carrying away to Babylon and the being brought to Baylon are the same thing!

You cannot count one man twice!

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, whirlwind.

In saying "the kingly line" I am referring to king David as that is the connection that must be made to fulfill Scripture:

Matthew 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?


He was the "Son of David" legally through His step-father Joseph and He was the "Son of David" through His mother Mary...through her blood line!

As for splitting verse 12...it was split to count the 14 generations. Jechonias is the 14th in that generation. His son Salathiel was the 1st of the next 14.

11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren,(the end of 14 generations) about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; (the beginning of the next 14 generations) and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;

17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.


The carrying away to Babylon and the being brought to Baylon are the same thing!

You cannot count one man twice!

I'm not going to be able to change your mind, but neither are you going to change my mind. You CAN count a man twice if the AUTHOR counts the man twice ... and HE DID!

Look, here is the list of kings:

Matthew 1:6-11
6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
KJV

Matthew 1:6-11
6 Yishai was the father of David the king.

David was the father of Shlomo (his mother was the wife of Uriyah),
7 Shlomo was the father of Rechav‘am,
Rechav‘am was the father of Aviyah,
Aviyah was the father of Asa,
8 Asa was the father of Y’hoshafat,
Y’hoshafat was the father of Yoram,
Yoram was the father of ‘Uziyahu,
9 ‘Uziyahu was the father of Yotam,
Yotam was the father of Achaz,
Achaz was the father of Hizkiyahu,
10 Hizkiyahu was the father of M’nasheh,
M’nasheh was the father of Amon,
Amon was the father of Yoshiyahu,
11 Yoshiyahu was the father of Y’khanyahu and his brothers
at the time of the Exile to Bavel.
CJB

0. David (rightly pronounced "da-VEED" in Hebrew) the KING
1. Solomon (Shlomoh) the KING
2. Roboam (Rechav`am) the KING
3. Abia (Aviyahu) the KING
4. Asa (Asah) the KING
5. Josaphat (Yhoshafat) the KING
6. Joram (Yoram) the KING
7. Ozias (`Uziyahu) the KING
8. Joatham (Yotam) the KING
9. Achaz (pronounced as "ah-CHAZ" with the "CH" as in the scottish word "loch") the KING
10. Ezekias (Hizkiyahu) the KING
11. Manasses (Mnasheh) the KING
12. Amon (Amown) the KING
13. Josias (Yoshiyahu) the KING
14. Jechonias (Ykhanyahu) the KING

Now, if you don't mind, I'll not say another thing on this subject. Say what you want to say; you can have the last word, if you wish.

 

[whirlwind]

Shalom, whirlwind.


I'm not going to be able to change your mind, but neither are you going to change my mind. You CAN count a man twice if the AUTHOR counts the man twice ... and HE DID!

Look, here is the list of kings:

Matthew 1:6-11
6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
KJV

Matthew 1:6-11
6 Yishai was the father of David the king.

David was the father of Shlomo (his mother was the wife of Uriyah),
7 Shlomo was the father of Rechav‘am,
Rechav‘am was the father of Aviyah,
Aviyah was the father of Asa,
8 Asa was the father of Y’hoshafat,
Y’hoshafat was the father of Yoram,
Yoram was the father of ‘Uziyahu,
9 ‘Uziyahu was the father of Yotam,
Yotam was the father of Achaz,
Achaz was the father of Hizkiyahu,
10 Hizkiyahu was the father of M’nasheh,
M’nasheh was the father of Amon,
Amon was the father of Yoshiyahu,
11 Yoshiyahu was the father of Y’khanyahu and his brothers
at the time of the Exile to Bavel.
CJB

0. David (rightly pronounced "da-VEED" in Hebrew) the KING
1. Solomon (Shlomoh) the KING
2. Roboam (Rechav`am) the KING
3. Abia (Aviyahu) the KING
4. Asa (Asah) the KING
5. Josaphat (Yhoshafat) the KING
6. Joram (Yoram) the KING
7. Ozias (`Uziyahu) the KING
8. Joatham (Yotam) the KING
9. Achaz (pronounced as "ah-CHAZ" with the "CH" as in the scottish word "loch") the KING
10. Ezekias (Hizkiyahu) the KING
11. Manasses (Mnasheh) the KING
12. Amon (Amown) the KING
13. Josias (Yoshiyahu) the KING
14. Jechonias (Ykhanyahu) the KING

Now, if you don't mind, I'll not say another thing on this subject. Say what you want to say; you can have the last word, if you wish.

And I will happily take...the last word for this last word is truth! Changing your mind is not of importance.

The silliness of thinking the AUTHOR counted one man twice and base your understanding on it is...silly.


Jesus Christ was not said to be of Jechonias, of Rehobam, etc. He was "SON OF DAVID." The other kings are just floatsam and jetsam so list away, Retrobyter, for they are "endless genealogies" as far as the blood line of Christ is concerned.


Either God, the Author, lied when He repeated THREE TIMES....FOURTEEN GENERATIONS, or He can't count and listed one man twice or the translators made a mistake when they wrote...Joseph the husband of Mary.

Take your pick.

 

[Dodo_David]

And I will happily take...the last word for this last word is truth!

Really? Since when is any individual on this website the final authority on what is truth?

I want to cite a statement from this site's rules:

• It’s not about the last word. A forum is unique in that the entire discussion is arrayed before an audience. There are times when your message is far more powerful when you walk away instead of forcing the issue or trying to get the last jab in for the judges.

 

[whirlwind]

Really? Since when is any individual on this website the final authority on what is truth?

I want to cite a statement from this site's rules:

• It’s not about the last word. A forum is unique in that the entire discussion is arrayed before an audience. There are times when your message is far more powerful when you walk away instead of forcing the issue or trying to get the last jab in for the judges.

An individual is never the authority on truth. God's WORD is always the final authority. Therefore, I repeat.....


Either God, the Author, lied when He repeated THREE TIMES....FOURTEEN GENERATIONS, or He can't count and listed one man twice or the translators made a mistake when they wrote...Joseph the husband of Mary.


It is not about me having the last word...it is about not allowing a false teaching to stand. We, as children of God, are not to "walk away" from something when He has shown what we are to see!

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, whirlwind.

Hmmf. NONE OF THE ABOVE.

Now, leave my thread alone.

Where this thread is SUPPOSED to go is along the lines of how one should believe ALL the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, with the emphasis that THEY placed upon the various accounts they recorded! Not what some "lone wolf" THINKS they say and says, "GOD told me that THIS is the truth!' Ridiculous!

Whenever someone in a group discussion said something audacious like that when I was in Bible college, the response was all around the circle, "Lightning rods!" and we'd hold our hand above our head with thumb and pinky stretched out in opposite directions, thumbs touching the top of our head and pinky as high in the air as we could get them! One could easily see such a group from across campus and know something was said that all the others thought was audacious and they'd know who said it by who wasn't "protected!" It was a GREAT way to remind ourselves that we needed to CHECK what we were thinking before we just blurted it out! It saves face and the need for a retraction when we realize that ... OOPS! ... we were wrong. The guilty party was required - right there and then - to either make a retraction or to come up with a Scriptural reason for saying what they said, book, chapter, and verse. If they couldn't support their claim, then it was a DOUBLE whammy!

Now, if one said, "I think ...." or "I believe that ...," then they were okay and no one would embarrass them for what they thought, recognizing however that everyone's opinion was just that - an opinion - and no one person's opinion was any better than another's opinion.

I miss those college days; we had some GREAT discussions about all sorts of theological matters. We called it "snack shop theology," because these discussions usually started or ended in the local campus hang-out, the canteen, mini-restaurant or "snack shop," always a loud, busy, and fun place to be.

Maybe we should start such a tradition here! We can find a "lightning rod" smiley (or emoticon) and say "LIGHTNING RODS!" when someone says the absurd or the audacious or makes the obnoxious claims that go around here! (It probably wouldn't help with some people, though.) For the double whammy, we could find a "struck-by-lightning" smiley!

Did you know, for instance, that I've read messages from THREE of the "two witnesses?" And, that's just on the two Christian forums I visit! I wonder how many more there are?

 

[Dodo_David]

Maybe we should start such a tradition here! We can find a "lightning rod" smiley (or emoticon) and say "LIGHTNING RODS!" when someone says the absurd or the audacious or makes the obnoxious claims that go around here! (It probably wouldn't help with some people, though.) For the double whammy, we could find a "struck-by-lightning" smiley!

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Dodo_David.

ROFL! I LIKE it! Perfect!

 

[whirlwind]

Shalom, whirlwind.

Hmmf. NONE OF THE ABOVE.

Now, leave my thread alone.

Your thread....so you want to write whatever YOU think is correct and the heck with anyone else, which, in this case...would include the Word of the Lord? My goodness, perhaps you should just write your own Bible...lots of folks have and lots of them are misleading.


Now, as for "Hmmmf, none of the above"...would it not be better for you to explain WHY the three mentions of FOURTEEN GENERATIONS means just that or is wrong? Are you going to stick with..."well, God counted one man twice," in order to validate your teaching?






Where this thread is SUPPOSED to go is along the lines of how one should believe ALL the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, with the emphasis that THEY placed upon the various accounts they recorded! Not what some "lone wolf" THINKS they say and says, "GOD told me that THIS is the truth!' Ridiculous!

I'm sure you, as all others here, want the thread they write to only contain truth or at least be written so that truth may be attained. Remember....

Galatians 5:8-9 This persuasion cometh not of Him that calleth you. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Whenever someone in a group discussion said something audacious like that when I was in Bible college, the response was all around the circle, "Lightning rods!" and we'd hold our hand above our head with thumb and pinky stretched out in opposite directions, thumbs touching the top of our head and pinky as high in the air as we could get them! One could easily see such a group from across campus and know something was said that all the others thought was audacious and they'd know who said it by who wasn't "protected!" It was a GREAT way to remind ourselves that we needed to CHECK what we were thinking before we just blurted it out! It saves face and the need for a retraction when we realize that ... OOPS! ... we were wrong. The guilty party was required - right there and then - to either make a retraction or to come up with a Scriptural reason for saying what they said, book, chapter, and verse. If they couldn't support their claim, then it was a DOUBLE whammy!

What was audacious? I quoted His Words...have ye not read? Are His Words truth...or not? Rather than throw stones it would be best to discuss what has been placed before us in order to understand. You have been provided "Scriptural validation...chapter and verse!" So, who needs to raise his lightning rod? Who is the guilty party? Who is wrong? Who hasn't checked his thread for validation? Who needs to consider that perhaps "Bible college" was NOT the teaching of the Holy Spirit who will guide us into deeper understanding?

Now, if one said, "I think ...." or "I believe that ...," then they were okay and no one would embarrass them for what they thought, recognizing however that everyone's opinion was just that - an opinion - and no one person's opinion was any better than another's opinion.

I miss those college days; we had some GREAT discussions about all sorts of theological matters. We called it "snack shop theology," because these discussions usually started or ended in the local campus hang-out, the canteen, mini-restaurant or "snack shop," always a loud, busy, and fun place to be.

My opinion or your opinion is swept aside when God's Words correct us. Please see FOURTEEN GENERATIONS given us THREE TIMES and then...we must deal with it. As for the college days....


1 Corinthians 13:10:11 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Maybe we should start such a tradition here! We can find a "lightning rod" smiley (or emoticon) and say "LIGHTNING RODS!" when someone says the absurd or the audacious or makes the obnoxious claims that go around here! (It probably wouldn't help with some people, though.) For the double whammy, we could find a "struck-by-lightning" smiley!

Would the "audacious claim" include....God counted one man twice in order to make the fourteen generations?

Did you know, for instance, that I've read messages from THREE of the "two witnesses?" And, that's just on the two Christian forums I visit! I wonder how many more there are?

Only three. My goodness I have read from many of the witnesses and many have read my writing. There are TWO GROUPS of witnesses, not two literal entities. We are many for many are filled with the Holy Spirit.



Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.



And this seems particularly good to add here.....




ROLL TIDE ROLL

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, whirlwind.

You said,
"Your thread....so you want to write whatever YOU think is correct and the heck with anyone else, which, in this case...would include the Word of the Lord? My goodness, perhaps you should just write your own Bible...lots of folks have and lots of them are misleading."

No, I want to FOCUS on that which I want to FOCUS! PAY ATTENTION! You are fast becoming annoying to the point where I will put you on my "ignore" list. That would not be to "shut you up"; it would be to "shut you OUT" of my focus! You can say whatever you want; I can't stop you nor would I want to; however, you're side-lining my thread, leading it into discussions that I didn't intend when I started this thing!

You said,
'Now, as for "Hmmmf, none of the above"...would it not be better for you to explain WHY the three mentions of FOURTEEN GENERATIONS means just that or is wrong? Are you going to stick with..."well, God counted one man twice," in order to validate your teaching?'

Look, the division between "14 generations" at that point was not at the end of one man's life and the beginning of another's. It was AT THE EVENT of their being led off into Babylonian captivity! It was in the MIDDLE of the man's life! He had a "BEFORE EXILE" life and he had an "AFTER EXILE" life. It really shouldn't be this difficult for you to understand!

You said,
"I'm sure you, as all others here, want the thread they write to only contain truth or at least be written so that truth may be attained. Remember....

Galatians 5:8-9 This persuasion cometh not of Him that calleth you. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump."

And I say, read on, brother!

Galatians 5:7-15
7 You were running the race well; who has stopped you from following the truth? 8 Whatever means of persuasion he used was not from the One who calls you. 9 “It takes only a little hametz to leaven the whole batch of dough.” 10 I am confident that since you are united with the Lord, you will take no other view; and I am confident that the one who has been disturbing you, whoever he may be, will have to bear his punishment.
11 And as for me, brothers, if I am still preaching that circumcision is necessary, why am I still being persecuted? If that were the case, my preaching about the execution-stake would cause no offense whatever. 12 I wish the people who are bothering you would go the whole way and castrate themselves!
13 For, brothers, you were called to be free. Only do not let that freedom become an excuse for allowing your old nature to have its way. Instead, serve one another in love. 14 For the whole of the Torah is summed up in this one sentence: “Love your neighbor as yourself” ("v’aahavtaa lree`akhaa kaamowkhaa," Leviticus 19:18); 15 but if you go on snapping at each other and tearing each other to pieces, watch out, or you will be destroyed by each other!
CJB

You said,
'What was audacious? I quoted His Words...have ye not read? Are His Words truth...or not? Rather than throw stones it would be best to discuss what has been placed before us in order to understand. You have been provided "Scriptural validation...chapter and verse!" So, who needs to raise his lightning rod? Who is the guilty party? Who is wrong? Who hasn't checked his thread for validation? Who needs to consider that perhaps "Bible college" was NOT the teaching of the Holy Spirit who will guide us into deeper understanding?'

You need to differentiate between what is written in God's Word and YOUR INTERPRETATION of what is written in God's Word! His Words ARE INDEED truth; your words ABOUT His Words are NOT! When you CLAIM that your interpretation of God's Word is truth, THAT'S when you get into "audacious" territory! And, THAT'S when the red flags go up!

Look, you seem like a nice enough brother, and I want the best for you in your learning experience; however, you've got to understand that the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) works THROUGH your learning! He brings all things to your REMEMBRANCE, but they've got to be IN the mind before He brings them TO mind AGAIN! That's why we memorize Scripture! That way He has something to work with!

John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
KJV

It is WRONG to expect that the Ruach haQodesh is going to <POOF!> put new knowledge into your head! He can do that and DOES do that in emergency situations, but it is OUR RESPONSIBILITY to do the learning necessary under normal circumstances. That's why Bible colleges exist! Oh, we could learn on our own if we have good study habits, but colleges and seminaries help keep us on track by providing learning environments that encourage the study of God's Word. Think about this: If it were wrong to go to colleges and seminaries, why would God bother to give some the gift of teaching?

You said,
'My opinion or your opinion is swept aside when God's Words correct us. Please see FOURTEEN GENERATIONS given us THREE TIMES and then...we must deal with it. As for the college days....

1 Corinthians 13:10:11 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.'

Who (but you) said anything about childhood? I was an adult when I went to Bible college. How many children do YOU know who go to Bible COLLEGE? I'm not talking about reminiscing about childhood; I'm talking about missing the LEARNING ENVIRONMENT where my colleagues and I WORKED at learning the Scriptures but had fun doing it! I'm not talking about "Sunday School," friend!

Matthew 1:1-17
1:1 This is the genealogy of Yeshua the Messiah, son of David, son of Avraham:

2 Avraham was the father of Yitz’chak,
Yitz’chak was the father of Ya‘akov,
Ya‘akov was the father of Y’hudah and his brothers,
3 Y’hudah was the father of Peretz and Zerach (their mother was Tamar),
Peretz was the father of Hetzron,
Hetzron was the father of Ram,
4 Ram was the father of ‘Amminadav,
‘Amminadav was the father of Nachshon,
Nachshon was the father of Salmon,
5 Salmon was the father of Bo‘az (his mother was Rachav),
Bo‘az was the father of ‘Oved (his mother was Rut),
‘Oved was the father of Yishai,
6 Yishai was the father of David the king.

David was the father of Shlomo (his mother was the wife of Uriyah),
7 Shlomo was the father of Rechav‘am,
Rechav‘am was the father of Aviyah,
Aviyah was the father of Asa,
8 Asa was the father of Y’hoshafat,
Y’hoshafat was the father of Yoram,
Yoram was the father of ‘Uziyahu,
9 ‘Uziyahu was the father of Yotam,
Yotam was the father of Achaz,
Achaz was the father of Hizkiyahu,
10 Hizkiyahu was the father of M’nasheh,
M’nasheh was the father of Amon,
Amon was the father of Yoshiyahu,
11 Yoshiyahu was the father of Y’khanyahu and his brothers
at the time of the Exile to Bavel.

12 After the Babylonian Exile, Y’khanyahu was the father of Sh’altiel,
Sh’altiel was the father of Z’rubavel,
13 Z’rubavel was the father of Avihud,
Avihud was the father of Elyakim,
Elyakim was the father of ‘Azur,
14 ‘Azur was the father of Tzadok,
Tzadok was the father of Yakhin,
Yakhin was the father of El’ichud,
15 El’ichud was the father of El‘azar,
El‘azar was the father of Mattan,
Mattan was the father of Ya‘akov,
16 Ya‘akov was the father of Yosef the husband of Miryam,
from whom was born the Yeshua who was called the Messiah.

17 Thus there were fourteen generations from Avraham to David,
fourteen generations from David to the Babylonian Exile,
and fourteen generations from the Babylonian Exile to the Messiah.
CJB


Titus 3:1-11
3:1 Remind people to submit to the government and its officials, to obey them, to be ready to do any honorable kind of work, 2 to slander no one, to avoid quarrelling, to be friendly, and to behave gently towards everyone.

3 For at one time, we too were foolish and disobedient, deceived and enslaved by a variety of passions and pleasures. We spent our lives in evil and envy; people hated us, and we hated each other. 4 But when the kindness and love for mankind of God our Deliverer was revealed, 5 he delivered us. It was not on the ground of any righteous deeds we had done, but on the ground of his own mercy. He did it by means of the mikveh of rebirth and the renewal brought about by the Ruach HaKodesh, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Yeshua the Messiah, our Deliverer. 7 He did it so that by his grace we might come to be considered righteous by God and become heirs, with the certain hope of eternal life. 8 You can trust what I have just said, and I want you to speak with confidence about these things, so that those who have put their trust in God may apply themselves to doing good deeds. These are both good in themselves and valuable to the community.

9 But avoid stupid controversies, genealogies, quarrels and fights about the Torah; because they are worthless and futile. 10 Warn a divisive person once, then a second time; and after that, have nothing more to do with him. 11 You may be sure that such a person has been perverted and is sinning: he stands self-condemned.
CJB


COUNT IT HOWEVER YOU WANT TO COUNT IT! I don't care anymore! All I know is that the Scriptures are true, and this is INDEED a "stupid controversy!" If you bring it up again, you've been warned a second time already! (I.e., I will "have nothing more to do with" you, and you WILL be placed on my "ignore" list!)

 

[whirlwind]

Shalom, whirlwind.

You said,
"Your thread....so you want to write whatever YOU think is correct and the heck with anyone else, which, in this case...would include the Word of the Lord? My goodness, perhaps you should just write your own Bible...lots of folks have and lots of them are misleading."

No, I want to FOCUS on that which I want to FOCUS! PAY ATTENTION! You are fast becoming annoying to the point where I will put you on my "ignore" list. That would not be to "shut you up"; it would be to "shut you OUT" of my focus! You can say whatever you want; I can't stop you nor would I want to; however, you're side-lining my thread, leading it into discussions that I didn't intend when I started this thing!

You made an incorrect statement in your OP. You have been shown your error...will you not correct it?

You said,
'Now, as for "Hmmmf, none of the above"...would it not be better for you to explain WHY the three mentions of FOURTEEN GENERATIONS means just that or is wrong? Are you going to stick with..."well, God counted one man twice," in order to validate your teaching?'

Look, the division between "14 generations" at that point was not at the end of one man's life and the beginning of another's. It was AT THE EVENT of their being led off into Babylonian captivity! It was in the MIDDLE of the man's life! He had a "BEFORE EXILE" life and he had an "AFTER EXILE" life. It really shouldn't be this difficult for you to understand!

All of which amounts to zip...I ask you to count the fourteen generations. Agree with God's teaching or not...your choice.






You said,
"I'm sure you, as all others here, want the thread they write to only contain truth or at least be written so that truth may be attained. Remember....

Galatians 5:8-9 This persuasion cometh not of Him that calleth you. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump."

And I say, read on, brother!

Galatians 5:7-15
7 You were running the race well; who has stopped you from following the truth? 8 Whatever means of persuasion he used was not from the One who calls you. 9 “It takes only a little hametz to leaven the whole batch of dough.” 10 I am confident that since you are united with the Lord, you will take no other view; and I am confident that the one who has been disturbing you, whoever he may be, will have to bear his punishment.
11 And as for me, brothers, if I am still preaching that circumcision is necessary, why am I still being persecuted? If that were the case, my preaching about the execution-stake would cause no offense whatever. 12 I wish the people who are bothering you would go the whole way and castrate themselves!
13 For, brothers, you were called to be free. Only do not let that freedom become an excuse for allowing your old nature to have its way. Instead, serve one another in love. 14 For the whole of the Torah is summed up in this one sentence: “Love your neighbor as yourself” ("v’aahavtaa lree`akhaa kaamowkhaa," Leviticus 19:18); 15 but if you go on snapping at each other and tearing each other to pieces, watch out, or you will be destroyed by each other!
CJB
[/QUOTE]


May I ask then.....why are you snapping? I am trying to have you follow the truth...you are trying to stop the truth. The truth is written.




You said,
'What was audacious? I quoted His Words...have ye not read? Are His Words truth...or not? Rather than throw stones it would be best to discuss what has been placed before us in order to understand. You have been provided "Scriptural validation...chapter and verse!" So, who needs to raise his lightning rod? Who is the guilty party? Who is wrong? Who hasn't checked his thread for validation? Who needs to consider that perhaps "Bible college" was NOT the teaching of the Holy Spirit who will guide us into deeper understanding?'

You need to differentiate between what is written in God's Word and YOUR INTERPRETATION of what is written in God's Word! His Words ARE INDEED truth; your words ABOUT His Words are NOT! When you CLAIM that your interpretation of God's Word is truth, THAT'S when you get into "audacious" territory! And, THAT'S when the red flags go up!



I repeat....three times our Father said...FOURTEEN GENERATIONS. I didn't say it, I didn't interpret it...so shouldn't we deal with it?

Look, you seem like a nice enough brother, and I want the best for you in your learning experience; however, you've got to understand that the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) works THROUGH your learning! He brings all things to your REMEMBRANCE, but they've got to be IN the mind before He brings them TO mind AGAIN! That's why we memorize Scripture! That way He has something to work with!

John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
KJV

I am not a brother but I am nice enough. I understand how the Holy Spirit works for He teaches me every single day!



It is WRONG to expect that the Ruach haQodesh is going to <POOF!> put new knowledge into your head! He can do that and DOES do that in emergency situations, but it is OUR RESPONSIBILITY to do the learning necessary under normal circumstances. That's why Bible colleges exist! Oh, we could learn on our own if we have good study habits, but colleges and seminaries help keep us on track by providing learning environments that encourage the study of God's Word. Think about this: If it were wrong to go to colleges and seminaries, why would God bother to give some the gift of teaching?


The Holy Spirit...poof...puts wisdom and knowledge in my head and it is ALWAYS validated in Scripture....as is this case with FOURTEEN GENERATIONS>

I didn't say you were wrong. I said the Bible Colleges are NOT the Holy Spirit. The following may well apply to those that trust in the teaching of man....

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

You said,
'My opinion or your opinion is swept aside when God's Words correct us. Please see FOURTEEN GENERATIONS given us THREE TIMES and then...we must deal with it. As for the college days....

1 Corinthians 13:10:11 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.'

Who (but you) said anything about childhood? I was an adult when I went to Bible college. How many children do YOU know who go to Bible COLLEGE? I'm not talking about reminiscing about childhood; I'm talking about missing the LEARNING ENVIRONMENT where my colleagues and I WORKED at learning the Scriptures but had fun doing it! I'm not talking about "Sunday School," friend!

Eighty year old men can still be children as far as knowledge is concerned. The see the letter of the Word..they believe the teaching of man and deny God's Word, such as FOURTEEN GENERATIONS. That is what I mean by childish things.

Matthew 1:1-17

1:1 This is the genealogy of Yeshua the Messiah, son of David, son of Avraham:



17 Thus there were fourteen generations from Avraham to David,
fourteen generations from David to the Babylonian Exile,
and fourteen generations from the Babylonian Exile to the Messiah.
CJB


Please SEE...or admit you see.....


11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren,(the end of 14 generations) about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; (the beginning of the next 14 generations) and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;

17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

The bringing to Babylon and the carrying away into Babylon ARE THE SAME THING!!!

Titus 3:1-11
3:1 Remind people to submit to the government and its officials, to obey them, to be ready to do any honorable kind of work, 2 to slander no one, to avoid quarrelling, to be friendly, and to behave gently towards everyone.


9 But avoid stupid controversies, genealogies, quarrels and fights about the Torah; because they are worthless and futile. 10 Warn a divisive person once, then a second time; and after that, have nothing more to do with him. 11 You may be sure that such a person has been perverted and is sinning: he stands self-condemned.
CJB


As you quote that...why then do you not follow His Words? Is your mirror cracked?






COUNT IT HOWEVER YOU WANT TO COUNT IT! I don't care anymore! All I know is that the Scriptures are true, and this is INDEED a "stupid controversy!" If you bring it up again, you've been warned a second time already! (I.e., I will "have nothing more to do with" you, and you WILL be placed on my "ignore" list!)

Yes, the Scriptures are true. You have been given the truth and you avoid it...Why? It is not how "I count it" it is how it is given us to understand.

Ignore me all you want...ignore God's Word and shame on you.