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Believe ALL of the Gospels

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Retrobyter, Nov 21, 2013.

  1. Dodo_David

    Dodo_David Melmacian in human guise

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    As I see it, it is foolish at best to conclude that one's personal interpretation of the Bible must be the truth because it is one's self who is making the interpretation.

    It is one thing to say, "I understand the Bible to teach ______ because _______."

    It is another thing to say or imply, "My interpretation of the Bible is the truth because I am the one who is interpreting it."

    When there is a difference of opinion about how to interpret Bible verses, it is beneficial to use tact and diplomacy when explaining one's interpretation.
  2. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    How many ways can one interpret...fourteen generations? It isn't open to interpretation.
  3. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, everyone.

    Sorry about the mess. It's ... handled ... now. Feel free to read whatever whirlwind writes, but I will be ignoring him from now on. He will likely retaliate, but I'm pressing on.

    Let's look at Matthew 4:

    Matthew 4:1-11
    1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
    2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
    3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
    4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
    5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
    6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
    7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
    8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
    9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
    10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
    11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

    First, Yeshua`s responses tell us some truths that we should know about God: First of all, He has made us MUCH more resilient than we might otherwise think we are. The normal man, after fasting for 40 days, might think he couldn't go another day without food. Yeshua`s example shows us that God will not test us beyond our ability to rise to the challenge. Therefore, we should trust God and remain faithful - loyal - trustworthy to God. He WILL come through for us before our strength has run out.

    Second, Yeshua`s example teaches us that we are NOT to dare God in ANY respect! God doesn't respond well to ultimatums! He is, after all, GOD! To whom does He answer?! If we were to cast ourselvesoff of a cliff (or the pinnacle of ... say ... the Empire State Building), He MAY decide to save us, but He would be WELL within His rights to just let nature take its course! Who do we think we are? God MAY save us as He did the children of Isra'el in the wilderness for His OWN Name's sake, but He can get along just fine without us, EVEN if we have some prophecy that talks about us specifically!

    Third, I find it interesting that haSatan (the Enemy) recognized that He would one day be the King of kings, or World Emperor. I also find it ironic to hear him talk as though all those kingdoms of the world were HIS to give! Yeshua` was already promised all of the kingdoms!

    Psalm 2:1-12
    1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
    2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his Anointed, saying,
    3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
    4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
    5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
    6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
    7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
    8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
    9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
    10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
    11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
    12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

    So, once again, Yeshua` is going to be the King, not only of the Jews, and not only of Isra'el, but also of the WHOLE WORLD!

    Now, the last portion of chapter 4 is VERY telling, and I believe that THIS is the crux of what Matittyahu (Matthew) is trying to communicate in His account:

    Matthew 4:12-25
    12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
    13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:
    14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
    15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
    16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
    17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
    18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
    19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
    20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.
    21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.
    22 And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed him.
    23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
    24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.
    25 And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.

    Notice, again, that Yeshua` doesn't explain what He means by the "Kingdom of heaven" in verse 17, nor do we hear an explanation of the message that He heralded called the "gospel of the Kingdom" in verse 23. Again, the "gospel of the kingdom" is simply "the good news about the Kingdom," and what might that "good news" be?

    Isaiah 52:7
    7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

    THAT is the good news about the Kingdom! God will not only reign, but He will bring many blessings (happinesses) to Isra'el and to those who blessed Isra'el - to those who made Isra'el happy or comforted and helped Isra'el - down through the years!

    Finally, it is VERY IMPORTANT that we understand WHY God would heal "all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people." It was His AUTHENTICATION of the message! The reason why we don't have much healing today is not because "God doesn't do it anymore" or because "the Word of God is complete," and it's not because "we don't need that kind of healing anymore." It's because God has NOTHING TO AUTHENTICATE! Very few people even know WHAT the good news about the Kingdom is, let alone proclaim it or herald it! Why should God perform the miracles of authentication for a message that is so often weak and incomplete, and in many cases, WRONG?! God's not going to put His stamp of approval on something He doesn't support!

    If you will search through the Gospels, you will find that almost always the gospel of the Kingdom goes hand-in-hand with the miracles of healing! And why not? One can also find this in prophecy:

    Isaiah 35:4-6
    4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
    5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
    6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

    Isaiah 42:1-8
    1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
    2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
    3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
    4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
    5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
    6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
    7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
    8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    Psalm 146:5-10
    5 Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God:
    6 Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever:
    7 Which executeth judgment for the oppressed: which giveth food to the hungry. The LORD looseth the prisoners:
    8 The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the Lord raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous:
    9 The LORD preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down.
    10 The LORD shall reign for ever, even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the LORD.

    And, just as an aside (but also something I feel is VERY important), why do all of our versions say "GOD" and "LORD" but NEVER SAY HIS NAME?! Some versions say "God" and "Lord," even when "translating" the Tetragrammaton, and won't even think it important to put His name in all caps! At least, the KJV does that! Okay, it's true that we don't really know HOW to pronounce the Name (even though some claim it's "Jehovah" or "Yahweh"), but why can't they just transliterate the letters of the Tetragrammaton as "YHWH"?! That would be better than nothing! Even the Psalms abbreviated His Name to "Yah!" Couldn't we at least do THAT?! Personally, I believe His Name is that which is tacked onto various OT names, like "EliYAHU" or "MatittYAHU" or "YirmeYAHU"; it's "YaHuWH" (pronounced like "Yahoo," with the accent on the second syllable).

    Above, in Isaiah 42:5, we read the phrase "Thus sayeth God the LORD," but that's BACKWARDS! The Hebrew reads, "Koh aamar haa-Eel YHWH," which literally translates to "Like-this says the-God YHWH," and "YHWH" is His NAME! But, you sure don't see that in ANY of the English translations, not even in those that claim to be a "literal translation" like Young's! Some may come close, but they still don't translate "haa-Eel" (pronounced "haw-ALE") as "THE God."
  4. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    As I am being ignored by some...so be it. However, to others that may read this, when a poster writes an OP and a glaring error is found within his text, an error he refuses to admit or correct what then is within the rest of his post?

    We are all subject to error...we should all come here in the spirit of learning as well as teaching. If we are not open to correction by the written Word then what does that say? To me it means our old man is alive and well, still ruling our life. I term my old man...ego/self/carnal nature and my old man had to be crucified.....

    Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

    Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

    Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
  5. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, again, everyone.

    This time, Matthew 5 is considerably well known as the first chapter of Yeshua`s "Sermon on the Mount," particularly, the "Beatitudes." I'm going to start in the last few verses of chapter 4 and run them into chapter 5 in the Complete Jewish Bible:

    Matthew 4:23-5:48
    4:23 Yeshua went all over the Galil teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the Good News of the Kingdom, and healing people from every kind of disease and sickness. 24 Word of him spread throughout all Syria (Aram), and people brought to him all who were ill, suffering from various diseases and pains, and those held in the power of demons, and epileptics and paralytics; and he healed them. 25 Huge crowds followed him from the Galil, the Ten Towns, Yerushalayim, Y’hudah, and ‘Ever-HaYarden (the other side of the Yarden River).

    5:1 Seeing the crowds, Yeshua walked up the hill. After he sat down, his talmudic (students; disciples) came to him, 2 and he began to speak. This is what he taught them:

    3 “How blessed are the poor in spirit!
    for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs.
    4 “How blessed are those who mourn!
    for they will be comforted.
    5 “How blessed are the meek!
    for they will inherit the Land!
    6 “How blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness!
    for they will be filled.
    7 “How blessed are those who show mercy!
    for they will be shown mercy.
    8 “How blessed are the pure in heart!
    for they will see God.
    9 “How blessed are those who make peace!
    for they will be called sons of God.
    10 “How blessed are those who are persecuted
    because they pursue righteousness!
    for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs.

    11 “How blessed you are when people insult you and persecute you and tell all kinds of vicious lies about you because you follow me! 12 Rejoice, be glad, because your reward in heaven is great — they persecuted the prophets before you in the same way.

    13 “You are salt for the Land. But if salt becomes tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything except being thrown out for people to trample on.

    14 “You are light for the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Likewise, when people light a lamp, they don’t cover it with a bowl but put it on a lampstand, so that it shines for everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before people, so that they may see the good things you do and praise your Father in heaven.

    17 “Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud (the tenth and smallest letter of the Hebrew alefbet) or a stroke (Hebrew: "kowts" = "thorn," the hook of a letter, such as that which distinguishes a dalet from a reish) will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P’rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

    21 “You have heard that our fathers were told, ‘Do not murder,’ and that anyone who commits murder will be subject to judgment. 22 But I tell you that anyone who nurses anger against his brother will be subject to judgment; that whoever calls his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing!’ will be brought before the Sanhedrin; that whoever says, ‘Fool!’ incurs the penalty of burning in the fire of Gei-Hinnom! 23 So if you are offering your gift at the Temple altar and you remember there that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift where it is by the altar, and go, make peace with your brother. Then come back and offer your gift. 25 If someone sues you, come to terms with him quickly, while you and he are on the way to court; or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer of the court, and you may be thrown in jail! 26 Yes indeed! I tell you, you will certainly not get out until you have paid the last penny.

    27 “You have heard that our fathers were told, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that a man who even looks at a woman with the purpose of lusting after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye makes you sin, gouge it out and throw it away! Better that you should lose one part of you than have your whole body thrown into Gei-Hinnom. 30 And if your right hand makes you sin, cut it off and throw it away! Better that you should lose one part of you than have your whole body thrown into Gei-Hinnom.

    31 “It was said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife must give her a get (a document of divorce).’ 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of fornication, makes her an adulteress; and that anyone who marries a divorcee commits adultery.

    33 “Again, you have heard that our fathers were told, ‘Do not break your oath,’ and ‘Keep your vows to Adonai.’ 34 But I tell you not to swear at all — not ‘by heaven,’ because it is God’s throne; 35 not ‘by the earth,’ because it is his footstool; and not ‘by Yerushalayim,’ because it is the city of the Great King. 36 And don’t swear by your head, because you can’t make a single hair white or black. 37 Just let your ‘Yes’ be a simple ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No’ a simple ‘No’; anything more than this has its origin in evil.

    38 “You have heard that our fathers were told, ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you not to stand up against someone who does you wrong. On the contrary, if someone hits you on the right cheek, let him hit you on the left cheek too! 40 If someone wants to sue you for your shirt, let him have your coat as well! 41 And if a soldier forces you to carry his pack for one mile, carry it for two! 42 When someone asks you for something, give it to him; when someone wants to borrow something from you, lend it to him.

    43 “You have heard that our fathers were told, ‘Love your neighbor — and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! 45 Then you will become children of your Father in heaven. For he makes his sun shine on good and bad people alike, and he sends rain to the righteous and the unrighteous alike. 46 What reward do you get if you love only those who love you? Why, even tax-collectors do that! 47 And if you are friendly only to your friends, are you doing anything out of the ordinary? Even the Goyim (Gentiles; non-Hebrews) do that! 48 Therefore, be perfect (mature), just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

    First, the "Ten Town" (or in some versions, the "Decapolis") is described by Wikipedia: (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decapolis for more.)

    The names of the traditional Ten Cities of the Decapolis come from the Roman historian Pliny the Elder (N.H. 5.16.74). They are:
    1. Gerasa (Jerash) in Jordan
    2. Scythopolis (Beth-Shean) in Israel, the only city west of the Jordan River
    3. Hippos (Hippus or Sussita) in Israel
    4. Gadara (Umm Qais) in Jordan
    5. Pella (West of Irbid) in Jordan
    6. Philadelphia, modern day Amman, the capital of Jordan
    7. Capitolias (Beit Ras) in Jordan (Dion, Jordan)
    8. Canatha (Qanawat) in Syria
    9. Raphana in Jordan
    10. Damascus, the capital of modern Syria; Damascus was considerably north of the others and so is sometimes thought to have been an "honorary" member.
    According to other sources, there may have been as many as eighteen or nineteen Greco-Roman cities counted as part of the Decapolis. For example, Abila is very often cited as belonging to the group.

    There's a map at the site above that will show where these Ten Towns were located.

    So, a HUGE crowd gathered from all over to see Him work His miracles and brought loved ones who had need of such miracles. And, He healed them ALL!

    Now, to "bless" comes from the same root word as "bliss" in English. It means to "make someone happy." So, someone who is "blessed" is someone who has been "made happy!" Looking at verses 3-12 above, they are not happy when the bad things happen; they are happy because of the promises ON THE OTHER SIDE THROUGH the bad things. It's ridiculous, but I've actually heard well-meaning preachers say that we should be happy BECAUSE of the bad things! That's just nuts. Only a MASOCHIST would be happy for being persecuted! Looking THROUGH the persecution, however, at the promise that all that suffer persecution shall be rewarded CAN and SHOULD make someone happy, when they keep their eyes on the prize!

    The Greek word is "makarios" ("makarioi" in the plural) and the Hebrew word from which it is translated is "baarakh":

    NT:3107 makarios (mak-ar'-ee-os); a prolonged form of the poetical makar (meaning the same); supremely blest; by extension, fortunate, well off:
    KJV - blessed, happy (X -ier).

    OT:1288 baarakh (baw-rak'); a primitive root; to kneel; by implication to bless God (as an act of adoration), and (vice-versa) man (as a benefit); also (by euphemism) to curse (God or the king, as treason):
    KJV - X abundantly, X altogether, X at all, blaspheme, bless, congratulate, curse, X greatly, X indeed, kneel (down), praise, salute, X still, thank.

    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

    So, we can learn a few things from what Yeshua` said:
    1. The Kingdom "of heaven" or from the sky belongs (at least, in part) to those who are "poor in spirit" or "poor in attitude." That's a person who's not "too big for his britches." Even if he has money, he behaves like he's poor, not aloof and haughty.
    2. Those who mourn will be comforted.
    3. The meek ones will inherit the Land, speaking of haErets Yisra'el or the Land of Isra'el.
    4. The ones who hunger and thirst for righteousness will find it and will be completely satisfied by it.
    5. Those who show mercy to others will have mercy shown to them.
    6. Those who are the pure in heart will see God.
    7. Those who make peace - the peacemakers - will be called "baniym Elohiym" or "sons of God."
    8. The Kingdom "of heaven" or from the sky belongs (at least, in part) to those who are persecuted because they pursue righteousness.
    9. And, Yeshua` said to the crowd around him who chose to follow Him that their reward in the sky is HUGE when they're insulted, persecuted, and slandered for following Him, because they persecuted their predecessors who were prophets the same way! You're in good company!

    Then, he talked about "worthless, tasteless salt." However, salt is just a chemical, NaCl, Sodium Chloride! It can't LOSE anything! If it lost its sodium, it would be a green, poisonous gas, chlorine! If it lost its chloride, it would be a soft, dangerous metal that burns in water, including the sweat on one's skin, to form a sodium hydroxide acid that burns the skin, and its powdered form explodes in water!

    The only way for salt to "lose its savor" or its "tastiness" is to be CONTAMINATED with impurities. When it becomes too contaminated - too dirty - it can't be used to preserve or season food. It's only purposes are to melt ice on the roads or keep the roads clear of vegetation. Either way, it only becomes trampled into the ground.

    Then, Yeshua` said to them that they were light for the world. Interestingly, Yeshua` also said that HE was "the light of the world" in John 8:12 and again in John 12:46. However, he also had this to say about "the light of the world" in John 11:9-10:

    John 11:9-10
    9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
    10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

    Thus, He was telling us that "the light of this world" is the SUN! This reminds me of the Messianic prophecy in Malachi 4:2:

    Malachi 4:1-6
    1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
    2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
    4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
    5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
    6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

    The thing about all the points of light in a city on a hill is that the whole surrounding countryside can see that city from a great distance at night. The city becomes a beacon to mark the way for strangers and it becomes a landmark to those who are familiar with the area. It doesn't take bright lights for all the lights combined to become bright. Finally, the thing about multiple points of light is that fewer shadows are cast! A single bright light drives out the darkness but leaves holes of darkness - shadows - beyond objects that block the light. But, in the presence of MULTIPLE lights, those shadows are driven away, too!

    Some preachers and Bible expositors will claim that "let your light so shine" refers to doing good works, but that's not right. The light REVEALS the good works you're doing so that others can glorify God for those works! The light is what REVEALS the good works! The REPUTATION a person has and the PROMOTION or the PUBLICIZING of those good works by others is the light! In the Scriptures, it's called "glorification"; today, we call it "ADVERTISING" or "FAME!"

    "To glorify God" is to make God FAMOUS! "To give God the glory" is to give God CREDIT! We brag on HIS reputation, and spread His credit to EVERYONE! Just saying the words "to God be the glory" doesn't cut it if the people to whom you're saying it don't know what you're talking about! Saying the words "glory to God" means NOTHING unless you're saying those words to SOMEONE ELSE, and that "someone else" knows what those words mean!

    When someone says, "I give God all the glory," that only means something if the listener knows what "glory" is! If the listener doesn't know what "glory" is, that someone might as well be saying, "I give God all the beans!"

    That's enough for now. I'll write more on this later. Can you see how that the focus of Matthew is on the future Kingship of the Messiah Yeshua` and the Kingdom He brings with Him? And this has just been in the first five chapters of his book!
  6. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, everyone.

    So far, all I've done is concentrate on one book, Matthew. However, the really important point to this whole thread is to understand that the four Gospels are ALL God's Word. So, when they 2 or more are talking about the same event in Yeshua`s history (and it MUST be the exact same event), then the accounts will dovetail and harmonize well in the Greek, often with very little change between any of the Gospels from one another.

    When I was harmonizing Matthew 24 with Mark 13 and Luke 21, I discovered that two very-different-sounding versions in the English were EXTREMELY close in the Greek, only off by a word or so, that changed the English translation DRAMATICALLY! For instance,...

    The Greek of Matthew 24:5 says,
    Polloi gar eleusontai epi too onomati mou, legontes, Egoo eimi ho Christos, kai pollous planeesousin.

    The Greek of Mark 13:6 says,
    Polloi eleusontai epi too onomati mou legontes, hoti Egoo eimi kai pollous planeesousin.

    The Greek of Luke 21:8b says,
    ...polloi gar eleusontai epi too onomati mou, legontes, Egoo eimi, kai ho kairos eeggiken: Mee poreutheete opisoo autoon.

    The King James (Authorized) Version lists these verses this way:

    Matthew 24:5
    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    Mark 13:6
    6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    Luke 21:8
    8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

    Which one is right? Trick question. They are ALL right! Some hear (and remember) some of the phrases, some don't. What Yeshua` said was probably an amalgamation of all three (and four if John also records the same event).

    The word "gar" means "for" as a weak conjunction showing connection. The word "hoti" means "that" or "because" and it's the difference between what we call a direct quote and an indirect quote when it is so translated into English. Without the direct object (and its definite article), "ho Christos," "Egoo eimi" translates to "I am (he)." With the direct object, it translates to "I am Christ" (although technically, it could also be "I am the Christ"). Translators, probably knowing the other Gospels as well, may have taken liberties and added the translation word "Christ," as in the KJV of Mark 13:6 above. Of course, it is possible that some versions of the Greek include the words "ho Christos" in Mark's account that were dropped in other versions. Part of the fun in textual criticism is trying to figure out which came first to know if the words were added in a later version or dropped from an earlier version!

    To know what the three versions all agree upon, just look at the portions in black (the intersection of the accounts). To know what Yeshua` probably said, look at ALL the portions, regardless the color, and only use the portion in black one time when putting them all together (the union of the accounts). For those who might remember, this is based on set notation in mathematics and logic.

    This is what I mean by harmonizing the Gospels in the Greek FIRST. When one has that amalgamation of what Yeshua` indeed said, based on all the accounts of that incident, THEN one can translate the result from the Greek into English.


    Just as an aside, one should understand that there are TWO words that translate as "not" (or "no") in Greek: The Beginner's Grammar of the Greek New Testament by William Hersey Davis says this on pages 173-4:

    That can give you the idea for why one of the "not's" is used in a statement rather than the other. One is typically used in a positive sense while the other is used in a negative sense, and when used together, they are saying, "not in any way, positive or negative!"
  7. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom to anyone who is willing to read this:

    I've been having an interesting discussion with a brother in another forum. It's something that I think could be beneficial for all of you, as well, and it is pertinent to this thread. So, I'm going to give you a little of it.

    One person quoted the following verses:

Another person quoted this person and responded:

    To this, I responded:

    Frankly, these are instructions that Yeshua` gave to His disciples - His apostles - His "sent ones" - during the first century when Yeshua` was offering the Kingdom to Isra'el. They are NOT "universalisms" that apply to all generations!

    Look at the WHOLE context:

    Matthew 10:1-11:1
    10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
    2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
    3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
    4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
    5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying,
    Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
    6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    7 And as ye go, preach (herald), saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand (within your grasp).
    8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
    9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
    10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
    11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
    12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
    13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
    14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
    15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
    16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
    17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
    18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
    19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
    20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
    21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
    22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
    23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
    24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
    25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
    26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
    27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
    28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
    29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
    30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
    31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
    32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
    33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
    34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
    35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
    36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
    37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
    38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
    39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
    40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
    41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
    42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

    11:1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.

    These were VERY SPECIFIC instructions given to these twelve, not to everyone! So THEIR job was to go through all the towns and villages of "the lost sheep of Isra'el" and herald the message that the King Apparent, Chosen (Anointed) by God, was coming to THEIR town! The inhabitants could either accept the message or reject it. To prove the Twelve were who they claimed to be, they were given power to heal the sick, just as the Messiah had power to do!

    Consider the following map of Florida:


    If Yeshua` (Jesus) were to have started in Miami on His way to Tallahassee, Florida, going up I-95 and across I-10, the specific locations He would have sent His apostles would have been Hollywood, Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach, Stuart, Port Saint Lucie, Vero Beach, Saint Augustine, Jacksonville, Macclenny, Lake City, Live Oak, Madison, and Monticello, in that order, and then ending up in Tallahassee, with other smaller towns in between all these. When He said, "Don't go on any foreign roads, and don't go into any of the towns of Shomron (Samaria)," He was saying, "Don't go on any roads into Georgia, and don't visit any towns of Alabama!" (Sorry to any inhabitants of Georgia or Alabama on the forum! No evil speaking of your homes intended.) They were limited as to whom they could visit!

    Verses 17 to 23 are events that actually happened to His disciples (which Yeshua` was foretelling at this point). So, when Yeshua` said, "Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come," He was simply saying that they wouldn't finish their task of visiting all these towns before Yeshua` caught up to them! The warnings that He gave them in verses 24 to 42 were to forewarn them of what they were about to face and to ENCOURAGE them that He would protect them and reward them for their work. When Yeshua` was done commanding them what to do, they were off, and He began HIS trip, teaching and heralding in THEIR hometowns (while they were away).


    You also left off the book and the chapter on verses 27 and 28, but they come from the following context:

    Matthew 16:27-17:13
    27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
    28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
    2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
    3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
    4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said,
    This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
    6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
    7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
    8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
    9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying,
    Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
    10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
    11 And Jesus answered and said unto them,
    Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
    12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

    13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

    Remember this: Chapter and verse divisions were added later than the writing of the text, and they are NOT inspired by God.

    The transfiguration of the Lord in chapter 17 IS the fulfillment of His promise that some would see Him coming in His Kingdom. It was a VISION of what was to come, not the actual event itself! The message and the transfiguration are linked back-to-back in all three of the synoptic Gospels:

    Mark 9:1-13
    9:1 And he said unto them,
    Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
    2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
    3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
    4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
    5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
    7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying,
    This is my beloved Son: hear him.
    8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
    9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
    10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
    11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?
    12 And he answered and told them,
    Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
    13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.


    Luke 9:26-36

    26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
    27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

    28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
    29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
    30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
    31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
    32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
    33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
    34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
    35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying,
    This is my beloved Son: hear him.
    36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

    So, can you see? The two events - the words Yeshua` said to them and the transfiguration - are linked together in all three accounts! And, the event of the transfiguration was a VISION in partial fulfillment of Joel 2:28:

    Joel 2:28
    28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

    So, rest assured. We are NOT yet in the 1,000 years because our Lord Yeshua` has NOT yet returned as promised.

    Shalom, everyone.

    The person wrote back:

    And, I responded:

    Not at all, brother. You’re assuming something that I don’t think you have the Scriptural support to assume. You are ASSUMING that this verse is talking about a future time in their lives because Yeshua` said that His twelve were going to be brought before governors and kings. Your assumption is that these events didn’t happen before His death and resurrection. YOU DON’T KNOW THAT! Did that happen to them during Yeshua`s offer of the Kingdom between chapters 10 and 12 or not? Don't make Yeshua` (Jesus) out to be a liar here. He was talking to the twelve; He started the instruction in Matthew 10:1; and, He ended the instruction in Matthew 10:42. Then, the twelve left in Matthew 11:1!
    You’re also forgetting to look at the contexts of ALL the Gospels. He also started the instruction in Luke 9:1 and ended His instruction in Luke 9:5; then the twelve left in Luke 9:6. THEY RETURNED IN LUKE 9:10! Not everything about their journey is recorded in these accounts:

    Luke 9:1-10
    1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
    2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
    3 And he said unto them,
    Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.
    4 And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart.
    5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

    6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.
    7 Now Herod the tetrarch heard of all that was done by him: and he was perplexed, because that it was said of some, that John was risen from the dead;
    8 And of some, that Elias had appeared; and of others, that one of the old prophets was risen again.
    9 And Herod said, John have I beheaded: but who is this, of whom I hear such things? And he desired to see him.
    10 And the apostles, when they were returned, told him all that they had done. And he took them, and went aside privately into a desert place belonging to the city called Bethsaida.

    This is the SAME EVENT! How did Herod the tetrarch, a KING, hear about Yeshua`? Who were in His court if not governors? Don't assume that this is some future event! It happened to them AT THAT TIME! Why do you think Yochanan`s (John's) disciples visited Him in chapter 11? Why do you think Yeshua` denounced the towns of Korazin, Beit-Tsaidah, and K'far-Nachum in chapter 11? (These are REAL towns in Isra'el!) These were some of the towns that REJECTED Him and His Kingdom!


    When you said, "Both the words and the vision speak of His coming future," you should have said, "Both the words and the vision speak of His future coming," because then you would have been right!

    First, yes, the vision DID answer the question of them seeing Him in His Kingdom! To have the KING IS to have the Kingdom! That’s why Yeshua` said, “The Kingdom of God is within your grasp,” in Matthew 4:17, and to the PHARISEES, “The Kingdom of God is WITHIN (AMONG) you as a group,” in Luke 17:21! As long as the King was present among them, they had the chance of seeing the Kingdom of God! When they rejected Him, He rejected them in Matthew 23:1-36; then He mourned for them in Matthew 23:37, but He pronounced them “DESOLATE” in Matthew 23:38 with the promise in Matthew 23:39 that they would see Him again WHEN they could say, “Baruwkh haba’ bshem YHWH,” (translated as “Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD” and quoted from Psalm 118:26) which is Hebrew for “Welcome, Comer on the authority of YHWH,” i.e., the Messiah, referring to Himself. When He left the earth, He took His offer of the Kingdom WITH HIM!

    Second, you need to understand the IMPORTANCE of what they saw! Other kings are crowned with crowns and splendor; Yeshua` is crowned with GLORY! That is, He will LITERALLY GLOW BRIGHTLY with His Father’s Glory! It doesn't matter WHAT He is wearing; who else can GLOW AND SHINE AS HE DOES AND SHALL?! Who else will have the honor and respect from such greats as Mosheh (Moses) and Eliyahu (Elijah)?!

    Hebrews 2:6-9
    6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
    7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. (Psalm 8:4-6)
    For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    Nevertheless, we DO (or SHOULD) expect Him to come back BODILY!

    Acts 1:6-11
    6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
    7 And he said unto them,
    It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
    8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

    9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
    10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven (the sky) as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
    11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven (the sky)? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (the sky).

    He will return LITERALLY, TANGIBLY, BODILY, and as THE KING OF KINGS AND THE LORD OF LORDS! And, again, we are NOT to be anticipating "going to heaven"; we are to be anticipating the RESURRECTION and His SOON RETURN!
  8. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    There's definitely one thing you got wrong when you quote Matt.10:7 with "at hand". It does NOT... mean "(within your grasp)" that you added to that Scripture.

    The phrase "at hand" is the Greek word 'eggizo' which means 'to be near', like proximity, distantance-wise. By its usage it means the kingdom was 'near' to come, an adverbial clause which does NOT define an exact amount of time, which could mean a minute, an hour, a day, a year, or even over 2,000 years!
  9. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, veteran.

    Thank you for your contribution. Here's the Greek version of the verse:
    Matthew 10:7
    7 Poreuomenoi de keerussete legontes hotiEeggiken hee basileia toon ouranoon.
    The Greek New Testament (UBS)

    Here's what Strong's has to say about the word:

    NT:1448 eggizoo (eng-id'-zo); from NT:1451; to make near, i.e. (reflexively) approach:
    KJV - approach, be at hand, come (draw) near, be (come, draw) nigh.

    NT:1451 eggus (eng-goos'); from a primary verb agchoo (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of NT:43); near (literally or figuratively, of place or time):
    KJV - from at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready.

    NT:43 agkalee (ang-kal'-ay); from agkos (a bend, "ache"); an arm (as curved):
    KJV - arm.

    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

    The Bible Hub site (http://biblehub.com/greek/1448.htm and http://biblehub.com/abbrev.htm) gives the code, "V-RIA-3S," for the usage of the word "eeggiken" in Matthew 10:7. This translates to a verb in the perfect tense, the indicative mood, and the active voice with 3rd person and singular number. The perfect indicative is generally a present result of a past action, and since it is in active voice, the subject is performing the action.

    7 Poreuomenoi = 7 As-ye-go
    de = but
    keerussete = (ye)-preach
    legontes = saying
    hoti = that/because
    Eeggiken = Is-within-arm’s-reach/is-at-hand/is-within-(one's)-grasp
    hee = the
    basileia = kingdom
    toon = of-the/from-the
    ouranoon.” = skies.”

    Thus, the LITERAL interpretation has to do with the PHYSICAL location because the word is talking about being able to THROTTLE it with one's own arms! Therefore, I stand by my original translation - and you should open-mindedly consider it, too!

    By the way, how in the world does one seriously consider "over 2,000 years" "near to come?" That's ENTIRELY close-minded and self-deluded.
  10. Dodo_David

    Dodo_David Melmacian in human guise

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    Yes, the Greek word Ἤγγικεν means "to draw near". [Source: The New Analytical Greek Lexicon]

    It doesn't matter how the word is translated in the KJV because the KJV isn't the standard for comparison.

    Young's Literal Translation translates Matthew 10:7 as "And, going on, proclaim saying that, the reign of the heavens hath come nigh."
  11. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Dodo_David.

    Yes, thank you. However, I do believe that Young's Literal Translation has a particular bent that favors amillennialism. Thus, a "kingdom" becomes the more general "reign" as a translation for the word "basileia."

    However, "basileia" is PRECISELY the word used in the following passage:

    Mark 11:7-10
    7 And they brought the colt to Jesus, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him.
    8 And many spread their garments in the way: and others cut down branches off the trees, and strawed them in the way.
    9 And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord:
    10 Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.

    It's not just talking about the generic "ability to rule" or the "rule" itself; it's talking about the "REALM" over which a king rules!
  12. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Clearly this "at hand" is just going to turn into another one the crazy Preterist debates which keeps trying to place most prophecy as being already past history.

    1 Pet 4:7
    7 But the end of all things is
    at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

    Same Greek word for "at hand" used in 1 Peter 4:7. And Peter used to represent the time of the end.

    Mark 11:1
    1 And when they came
    nigh to Jerusalem, unto Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount of Olives, he sendeth forth two of his disciples,

    That's the same word also, and it is used to show when they approached near Jerusalem. This is probably one of the best examples of how that Greek word is meant, because no one can say this means they had reached Jerusalem yet, but that they were still approaching it. Likewise with the Kingdom, it was near to come IF the Jews would receive Jesus. They didn't, so the Kingdom did NOT... come and It is still... in abeyance today, waiting for Christ's second coming.

    A Warning To The Brethren About The Preterist Ideas:

    One can call this my opinion, I don't care. But why would the Preterist school want to try and move Bible prophecy meant only for the end of this world back as being fulfilled history? Why in today's time especially, is that kind Preterist thought pushed? What's events for the end did our Lord Jesus warn us about that the Preterist ideas seek to overturn, and why?

    Very few are paying attention to what a group of ultra-orthodox Jews have been up to in Jerusalem for over a decade now involving their plans to build a third temple and start up the old covenant style worship again.

    They've gathered construction materials, cut huge stones already, prepared temple articles and even have them on display, and have done DNA searches to find Levites for the priesthood, and the Sanhedren has started up again. The Land of Israel and Temple Mount Faithful group have even been holding Passover lamb sacrifices on a hill overlooking the Temple Mount in Jerualem for several years now. And most importantly, these Jews have been inviting the nations and even the Christian Church to take part in helping to build their temple and consecrate it. The only thing that has stood in their way has been the Israeli government and the followers of Islam which the Israeli general Moshe Dayan gave possession of the Temple Mount back to after siezing it in the 1967 war.

    What Preterist thought will do for you, if you latch onto it, is help you want to take part in what those ultra-orthodox Jews plan to do with building a third temple in Jerusalem in our near future. Afterall, THEY are looking for Messiah's coming also.

    So why shouldn't we as Christians not align with them, since we also await Messiah's coming?

    The asnwer to that should be very simple. They do not recognize Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah that will return. They are still waiting for His 1st coming, for they do not believe He came at all yet. Because of this God is going to send them strong delusion. IF a believer on Christ Jesus takes part in that, that will be the act of denying Jesus Christ as The Saviour. Afterall, Jesus ended the need for animal sacrifice too.

    This is what I see men's doctrines of Preterism and Amillennialism are trying to serve, as it is about getting one to believe in a Kingdom now type of philosophy when the strong delusion is to happen first to deceive as many as it will.
  13. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, veteran.

    I'm going to ask you once nicely; please leave this thread alone. If you want to warn someone about preterism, that's fine; I feel the same way. Start your own thread to do it, however, because when you do it here, you're implying that I am a preterist, and I am not. We've had this discussion multiple times, and you STILL insist on calling me a preterist or at least insist on implying that I'm one! I'm beginning to resent it! I do NOT believe that the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom "of heaven" or from the sky, is present "now" in any way! The King took the offer of the Kingdom AWAY FROM THEM, and they can't have it until they can WELCOME Him, Yeshua`, Jesus, as the Messiah of God, YHWH God's CHOICE for King! (Baruwkh haba' bshem YHWH!)

    "Partial-preterism," as I use the term, is more like "partial-futurism," and I strongly disagree with full preterism! Ultimately, I am a futurist - a premillennialist - and am PROUD of it! I just also recognize that when Yeshua` was talking TO HIS STUDENTS (DISCIPLES), He was addressing them in part for THEIR "now" and for THEIR "future," the IMMEDIATE future! That you DON'T recognize that fact is irrelevant to this thread.

    Now, what IS relevant is that Yeshua` had a mission when He came and it did NOT involve the Goyim (the Gentiles) AT ALL! IF they managed to get included, it was because of their affinity for Isra'el and for their demonstrations of faith in Isra'el's Messiah, Yeshua`.

    So, when Yeshua` said that the "kingdom was at hand" to the Isra'elis who had not yet accepted Him as their Messiah and to the Jewish leaders, the P'rushiym (Pharisees), Cohaniym (Priests), Levi'iym (Levites), and Torah-teachers (Lawyers), He was saying that their Kingdom - actually, HIS Kingdom - was "WITHIN THEIR GRASP!" It was within their reach! All they had to do was reach out and TAKE it (as offered to them one-by-one, not by force as a mob)! All they had to do was ACCEPT HIM AS THE PROMISED MESSIAH, ACCEPT HIM AS THEIR KING, and they would acquire the Kingdom! But, this they REFUSED to do.

    Regarding the push to erect a Third Temple, ultimately, it's not a bad thing. I mean, how else is prophecy about the Man Against Torah supposed to sit in the temple, proclaiming himself to be god, if there is no temple?! Sure, we don't accept the burnt offerings as an atonement for sin because Yeshua` has already died for our sins; however, not all sacrifices are about the forgiveness of sins! There are MANY reasons for sacrifices in the Temple! Qorbanowt (Corban) came in many ways:

    1. `Owlaah - the burnt offering
    2. Zebach Shlaamiym - peace offering
    3. ChaTaa't - the sin offering
    4. Aashaam - the guilt offering or trespass offering
    5. Minchah - a food or drink offering
    6. Param Adumah - the red heifer offering
    7. Zebach Towdah - thanksgiving offering

    One can read about most of these at the Judaism 101 site, http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm. Most of these offerings were NOT to atone for sins! They were to provide the children of Isra'el a way to praise God, to show their thanks to God, to demonstrate their innocence in the death of a stranger, and to provide food and drink for the priests and Levites, who were to be provided for so they wouldn't have to work in the fields but could continue their Temple duties!

    (By the way, I only mentioned the site for those who want to learn the facts about sacrifices and offerings, not to convert! I would not recommend weak Christians or new Christians to go there. It IS a Jewish site, after all, and they do not speak well of the Messiah Yeshua` - Christ Jesus - or Christians, whom they call "Missionaries" in a derogatory way.)

    You're wrong, by the way; while Orthodox Jews want to rebuild the Temple, Ultra-orthodox Jews believe that the Messiah HIMSELF will build the Temple, and want the Isra'elis to leave the project alone! They're okay with gathering the materials, but not the construction. It is THEIR input in the Kenesset, as well as the Islamic objections, that resist the building of the Temple!

    They didn't believe in Zionism when the new Isra'eliy state was first formed, either!

    Now, regarding the usage of "at hand" in 1 Peter 4:7, Kefa (Peter) was simply saying that the "end of all things" is ALWAYS to be considered "close, within one's reach."

    Matthew 24:44
    44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

    And, as far as Mark 11:1 is concerned, we don't often use the word "nigh" anymore. Most often today, we use the words "near" and "close," as adjectives.

    The word is intended to mean "almost there but not quite," and it is CERTAINLY not the same as "IN hand."

    So, when you said, "That's the same word also, and it is used to show when they approached near Jerusalem. This is probably one of the best examples of how that Greek word is meant, because no one can say this means they had reached Jerusalem yet, but that they were still approaching it. Likewise with the Kingdom, it was near to come IF the Jews would receive Jesus. They didn't, so the Kingdom did NOT... come and It is still... in abeyance today, waiting for Christ's second coming," YOU'RE RIGHT!!! That's what I've been SAYING, man!

    The only thing I'm saying about Matthew 10 is that this chapter has to do with Yeshua`s offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el WHILE HE WAS THERE!!!

    IF they could have accepted Him as their King, they would have received the Kingdom.
    Because they didn't accept Him as their King, He took the offer away from them and ascended into the sky! (He didn't then give it to His disciples in some "mysterious way," either; He POSTPONED it until Isra'el could welcome Him back as YHWH'S Messiah! - Matthew 23:39)

  14. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    So it is OK for Retroybter to imply that I am a Futurist (because of my Bible interpretation) while it is NOT OK to associate his interpretations with Preterist doctrine???

    Afterall, he was the one who began to imply that I was a Futurist from the beginning. I didn't start usage of the seminary labels.

    Fact of the matter is belief that Matt.24 was fulfilled in 70 A.D. by the conquering Romans is specifically... a Preterist doctrine of man.
  15. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    United States
    Shabbat shalom, veteran.

    No, it's NOT OK for veteran to MISREPRESENT Retrobyter! (Why are we speaking in the third person anyway?) Call ME a Futurist, if you'd like, or at worst a PARTIAL Preterist! Or, call me what I'D like, a Partial FUTURIST! Just DON'T LABEL ME A PRETERIST WHICH IMPLIES A FULL PRETERIST! Do you understand, yet? Think of it as a continuum:

    1. Full futurist
    2. Partial futurist
    3. Partial preterist
    4. Full preterist

    I think of myself at level 2 or at worst level 3, but NEVER level 1 or 4! You're treating it as a dichotomous choice:

    1. Futurist
    2. Preterist

    I.e., one must be either a futurist or a preterist! I DON'T LIKE THAT BECAUSE IT'S DISHONEST!
    But, if you reduce it that far, then I fall into the first level, futurist, not the second!

    Look, if one considers oneself a pretribulational rapturist or a pre-wrath rapturist, or a posttribulational rapturist or even a partial rapturist, then one is a premillennialist, AND if one is a premillennialist, then one is also a futurist! It's really very basic. Perhaps, we need to go back to definitions of these terms:

    Millennium = coming from "mille-" meaning "a thousand" and "annum" meaning "year," this is a thousand-year period (Revelation 20:1-7)
    Amillennialism = the belief that there will not (A-) be a literal 1000-year reign of Christ; it's just a long time (already begun), and He only comes back to judge
    Postmillennialism = the belief that Christ will return after (Post-) the spiritual "1000-year" reign of Christ, a "golden age of Christian ethics" already begun
    Premillennialism = the belief that Christ will return before (Pre-) the literal 1000-year reign of Christ

    Whichever of the three one believes determines to which system of beliefs that one will gravitate. That system of beliefs, being taught by certain leaders and writers, will also determine what kind of a congregation the person will attend, what kind of preachers to whom he will listen, and what versions of the Bible he will most likely read.

    I've always been a premillennialist. Period. I am convinced that our Master, Yeshua` haMashiach, Jesus the Christ, will bodily return (AS PROMISED) and fulfill OT prophecy by physically reigning on this earth. I don't believe that God will renege on ANY of His promises that He made to the Hebrew people.

    Within Premillennialism, there are four basic camps:
    Pretribulational rapturism = the belief that Jesus Christ will return and rapture the Church off the earth prior to the tribulation
    Pre-Wrath rapturism = given that the second half of the tribulation is called God's Wrath, this is the belief that Jesus Christ will return and rapture the Church off the earth prior to the Wrath
    Partial rapturism = the belief that Jesus Christ will return before the tribulation to rapture those who are ready and then again midway through the tribulation to rapture all the rest of the Church before the Wrath
    Posttribulational rapturism = the belief that Jesus Christ will return and rapture the Church off the earth toward the end of the tribulation just a short while before He comes WITH His saints in the Second Coming.

    Now, all of these four and Premillennialism ARE futuristic positions!

    J. L. Haynes at http://www.historicism.com/tour/tour2print.htm says:

    He's reasonably accurate in the first paragraph, and he's fairly close in the second paragraph. (Obviously, Haynes, who is a historicist, doesn't know about Pre-Wrath or Partial Rapturist positions. He does have a nice, little diagram contrasting Preterism, Historicism, Idealism, and Futurism on the same page, btw.)

    Of the four positions he describes on his site, I am definitely a futurist. I am not what he describes as a preterist, a historicist, or an idealist. Do you understand me, yet?

    So, regarding your statement, "Fact of the matter is belief that Matt.24 was fulfilled in 70 A.D. by the conquering Romans is specifically... a Preterist doctrine of man," you are being condescending, insulting, misleading, and dishonest!

    First, as I've already said ad nauseum, only PART of Matthew 24 was fulfilled in 70 A.D. by the conquering Romans; much of it is yet to be fulfilled when Yeshua` returns. Thus, I have a preteristic view of PART of Matthew 24, and I have a futuristic view of the rest!

    Second, for you to generalize and fully lump me into the category of "preterist," implying "full preterism," is misleading to those who are following this thread, condescending and insulting to me, and overall just a DISHONEST thing to do!

    So, can we PLEASE take it down a notch? Let's just be friends, even if you discount me as a brother (although, I still believe that you ARE my brother).