Believe ALL of the Gospels

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Retrobyter

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Shalom, everyone.

Much of eschatology ("the study of last things"), a branch of theology which studies the prophecies of Scripture and their fulfillment, is to be found in the words of the Master, Yeshua` haMashiach, Jesus the Christ, the Son of Man and the Son of God. These words are DIRECTLY quoted by the authors of the books called the "Gospels," "Gospel" coming from the Old English word "godspell," sometimes shortened to "gospell," meaning "good news."

By the way, the "god-" portion of "godspell" is the root of our word "good" and has nothing directly to do with "God," although He certainly is "good!"

"God" comes from the Old HighGerman "got," which in turn comes from the Old Norse word "goth" or "guth," which comes from the Gothic word "guth."

"Good" comes from the Old High German word "guot," which in turn comes from the Old Norse word "gothr," which comes from the Gothic word "goths."

The two words have certainly always been related, but they are not from the same origin. They have always been treated separately. (This all comes from the Random House Webster's College Dictionary.)

Of course, the "Gospels" to which we are referring here are the four canonical books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. In Greek, their titles are "Kata Maththaion" ("kata" meaning "according to"), "Kata Markon," "Kata Loukan," and "Kata Iooanneen." (Again, I use the "o" for "omicron," the "oo" for "omega," the "e" for "epsilon," and the "ee for "eta." Thus, "Iooanneen" is spelled "iota-omega-alpha-nu-nu-eta-nu." If the need arises, to keep the vowel representations separate, I will introduce a hyphen "-," e.g., "omicron-omega" would be transliterated as "o-oo.")

Each one of these books has come to us in the Greek language (Koinee Greek, as opposed to Modern Greek or Classical Greek). Originally, based on the author and his nationality, the only two that MIGHT have been originally written in Greek were "Kata Markon" and "Kata Loukan." "Kata Markon" was probably written by John Mark, whose surname "Marcos" from the Roman "Marcus," suggests his origin from Asia Minor, and he was possibly the secretary for Peter's account. "Kata Loukan" was written by the physician Loukas, who was a Greek. His work was a compilation of several accounts, and he undertook the task of merging them together into a unified whole, checking with the actual eye-witnesses whom he could still interview.

Thus, "Kata Maththaion" and "Kata Iooanneen" were probably first written down in Hebrew or Aramaic and then translated later into Greek. In any case, the authors were Hebrews and/or Jews and spoke and thought in Hebrew or Aramaic. Therefore, the Greek New Testament shows a good deal of Hebraisms in the Greek text.

Much has been made of Matthew 24 and 25, and it's been said that how one interprets Matthew 24 will govern the rest of his eschatology.

So, let's first see what the AUTHOR of the book, Matittyahu (Maththios or Matthew), was trying to say.
 

Rocky Wiley

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Retrobyter said:
Much has been made of Matthew 24 and 25, and it's been said that how one interprets Matthew 24 will govern the rest of his eschatology.

So, let's first see what the AUTHOR of the book, Matittyahu (Maththios or Matthew), was trying to say.
HI Retrobyter,

Can't really say what his book is on, but hermeneutics has taught me how all scripture should be interpreted. As for Matthew 24 this would be my outline.


What is the subject that the disciples pointed out to Jesus?
The temple in Jerusalem.

What was the response of Jesus?
There would not be one stone of the temple left upon another.

To whom is Jesus speaking to?
The disciples that asked the question.

Can we assume that all of Matthew 24 is directed to the disciples?
Yes.

When Jesus says 'When ye", is that the disciples or me?
It is the disciples.

When Jesus says "This generation", is he talking about the disciples generation or mine"
It is the disciples generation.

When Jesus said "It is not for you to know the hour or the day", was he still talking to his disciples.
It is still directed to his disciples.

So, let us recapl

The temple would be destroyed and that would relate to the disciples question "When shall these things be, the sign of thy coming and the end of the age?

Jesus told them, the disciples, many things that they would see before he returned and/or before the temple was destroyed.

Because he told them we should know the answer.


What is your take of Matthew 24. Do you believe it as I explained. If so, please use scripture to explain it to me. Men will be wrong, if it does not agree with God.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, all.

Let's continue:

First, we have the genealogy of Yeshua`:

Matthew 1:1-17
1:1 This is the genealogy of Yeshua the Messiah, son of David, son of Avraham:

2 Avraham was the father of Yitz’chak,
Yitz’chak was the father of Ya‘akov,
Ya‘akov was the father of Y’hudah and his brothers,
3 Y’hudah was the father of Peretz and Zerach (their mother was Tamar),
Peretz was the father of Hetzron,
Hetzron was the father of Ram,
4 Ram was the father of ‘Amminadav,
‘Amminadav was the father of Nachshon,
Nachshon was the father of Salmon,
5 Salmon was the father of Bo‘az (his mother was Rachav),
Bo‘az was the father of ‘Oved (his mother was Rut),
‘Oved was the father of Yishai,
6 Yishai was the father of David the king.

David was the father of Shlomo (his mother was the wife of Uriyah),
7 Shlomo was the father of Rechav‘am,
Rechav‘am was the father of Aviyah,
Aviyah was the father of Asa,
8 Asa was the father of Y’hoshafat,
Y’hoshafat was the father of Yoram,
Yoram was the father of ‘Uziyahu,
9 ‘Uziyahu was the father of Yotam,
Yotam was the father of Achaz,
Achaz was the father of Hizkiyahu,
10 Hizkiyahu was the father of M’nasheh,
M’nasheh was the father of Amon,
Amon was the father of Yoshiyahu,
11 Yoshiyahu was the father of Y’khanyahu and his brothers
at the time of the Exile to Bavel.

12 After the Babylonian Exile, Y’khanyahu was the father of Sh’altiel,
Sh’altiel was the father of Z’rubavel,
13 Z’rubavel was the father of Avihud,
Avihud was the father of Elyakim,
Elyakim was the father of ‘Azur,
14 ‘Azur was the father of Tzadok,
Tzadok was the father of Yakhin,
Yakhin was the father of El’ichud,
15 El’ichud was the father of El‘azar,
El‘azar was the father of Mattan,
Mattan was the father of Ya‘akov,
16 Ya‘akov was the father of Yosef the husband of Miryam, from whom was born the Yeshua who was called the Messiah.
17 Thus there were fourteen generations from Avraham to David,
fourteen generations from David to the Babylonian Exile,
and fourteen generations from the Babylonian Exile to the Messiah.
CJB

This genealogy provides genetic proof that Yeshua`, the adopted son of Yosef, had a legal claim to the throne of Daviyd, having come from David's dynasty of kings. It also shows that He was indeed a descendant of Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqov (Yisra'el), hence a Hebrew. It also shows that He was of the tribe of Y'hudah, and it shows that He was the descendant of Tamar - a daughter-in-law who resorted to prostitution with her father-in-law, Rachav (Rahab) - a Canaanite prostitute of Yreechow (Jericho), Rut (Ruth) - a daughter of Mo'av (Moab), and Bat-Sheva (Bathsheba), the wife of Uriyahu (Uriah or Urijah) that David coveted, stole from Uriyahu, and for whom David had him murdered. All four were an embarrassment to the Jews, and yet all four were given a place of honor in Yeshua`s lineage. This is a proof that God can take ANY circumstances in human history and work them into His plan.

Every one of these men had their own history; some of them are given in the Scriptures, but they ALL had a history to recount!

Then, in the second part of the first chapter, pay attention to the messenger's identification of Yosef:

Matthew 1:18-25
18 Here is how the birth of Yeshua the Messiah took place. When his mother Miryam was engaged to Yosef, before they were married, she was found to be pregnant from the Ruach HaKodesh. 19 Her husband-to-be, Yosef, was a man who did what was right; so he made plans to break the engagement quietly, rather than put her to public shame. 20 But while he was thinking about this, an angel of Adonai appeared to him in a dream and said, “Yosef, son of David, do not be afraid to take Miryam home with you as your wife; for what has been conceived in her is from the Ruach HaKodesh. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to name him Yeshua, [which means ‘Adonai saves,’] because he will save his people from their sins.”

22 All this happened in order to fulfill what Adonai had said through the prophet,

23 “The virgin will conceive and bear a son,
and they will call him ‘Immanu El.” (Isaiah 7:14)
(The name means, “God is with us.”)

24 When Yosef awoke he did what the angel of Adonai had told him to do — he took Miryam home to be his wife, 25 but he did not have sexual relations with her until she had given birth to a son, and he named him Yeshua.
CJB

The messenger of Adonai ("angel of the Lord") called him specifically a "son of David," also acknowledging his rightful lineage.

This is just the first chapter! ALL of Matittyahu's "Good News" notes Yeshua` as being the rightful heir to David's Kingdom, frequently calling him "Son of David" and "Messiah," which means "Anointed (One)," one of the reasons for being "anointed" being God's selection for king.

Shalom, Rocky Wiley.

Rocky Wiley said:
HI Retrobyter,

Can't really say what his book is on, but hermeneutics has taught me how all scripture should be interpreted. As for Matthew 24 this would be my outline.


What is the subject that the disciples pointed out to Jesus?
The temple in Jerusalem.

What was the response of Jesus?
There would not be one stone of the temple left upon another.

To whom is Jesus speaking to?
The disciples that asked the question.

Can we assume that all of Matthew 24 is directed to the disciples?
Yes.

When Jesus says 'When ye", is that the disciples or me?
It is the disciples.

When Jesus says "This generation", is he talking about the disciples generation or mine"
It is the disciples generation.

When Jesus said "It is not for you to know the hour or the day", was he still talking to his disciples.
It is still directed to his disciples.

So, let us recapl

The temple would be destroyed and that would relate to the disciples question "When shall these things be, the sign of thy coming and the end of the age?

Jesus told them, the disciples, many things that they would see before he returned and/or before the temple was destroyed.

Because he told them we should know the answer.


What is your take of Matthew 24. Do you believe it as I explained. If so, please use scripture to explain it to me. Men will be wrong, if it does not agree with God.
Matthew 24 is indeed a prophecy that Yeshua` states to His disciples; however, it extends beyond the time of His disciples. I'm going to use the "language of the stop lights" to explain the progression: red will be for the past, yellow for the progressive (not necessarily the present, per se, but showing the "slide" from the past to the future), and green for the future. I'm also going to use the KJV, simply because it adheres to the thee's and thou's, which are singular, as opposed to the ye's and you's which are plural:

Matthew 24:1-51
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then (ye) let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 (Ye) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither (ye) let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; (ye) believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; (ye) go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; (ye) believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now (ye) learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, (ye) know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

The key is to be found in the PRONOUNS (including implied pronouns within the verb forms), within the Greek text, highlighted above. Yeshua` would START in the past, but would frequently slide into "prophetic mode" and begin to talk about the future, both the progress to the future event of His coming and the event of His coming itself.

Futurists frequently make the mistake of putting ALL of Yeshua`s words into the future, even their own future, but preterists often just as easily make the mistake of putting everything in the past! When one makes the mistake of putting our Lord's coming in the past, then he begins to slide into an analogous interpretation of Scripture and frequently graduates to allegorism.
 

Rocky Wiley

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Does one need to know Greek in order to understand the word of God. No, certainly not.

How do we know if my post is correct? In this case Jesus told his disciples that the temple would be destroyed in their generation.

Was it?

Yes, it was destroyed in 70 AD, less than 40 years from the time Jesus said it would happen, still in their generation. Scripture is only right when we take the facts and they agree with scriptures.

One can not fit scripture to a future past 70 AD. All prophecy has been fulfilled.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Rocky Wiley.

Rocky Wiley said:
Does one need to know Greek in order to understand the word of God. No, certainly not.

How do we know if my post is correct? In this case Jesus told his disciples that the temple would be destroyed in their generation.

Was it?

Yes, it was destroyed in 70 AD, less than 40 years from the time Jesus said it would happen, still in their generation. Scripture is only right when we take the facts and they agree with scriptures.

One can not fit scripture to a future past 70 AD. All prophecy has been fulfilled.
Yes, one CAN fit Scripture to a future past 70 A.D., and all prophecy, even of Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21, has NOT all been fulfilled.

For instance, "many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ (the Messiah)" TAKES TIME TO ACCOMPLISH! Frankly, there were NOT that "many" who attempted to pass themselves off as the Messiah in the first century. To the contrary, we read about a few, Menahem ben Judah (in 3 A.D.), Vespasian himself (according to Josephus), and adding even Simon Ben Kokhba in the 130s A.D, but many more have followed them down through the centuries, right down to the modern claims of David Koresh, Maria Devi Christos, Sergei Torop, David Shayler, Alan John Miller, Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda, and even Haile Selassie I of Ethiopia. It TAKES TIME to gain a following! (One can see more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants.)

Also, consider the words of Yeshua` in 24:6-7. Again, it all TAKES TIME, often ENORMOUS LENGTHS OF TIME, for there to be "wars and rumors (threats) of wars," "nations to rise against nations," "kingdoms to rise against kingdoms," "famines," "pestilences," and "earthquakes" to occur! All of this didn't happen is 40 short years (to 70 A.D.), not even in 105 years (to 135 A.D.)! Historical records do not support such a claim! And, again, if one is going to believe that it did anyway, then one must resort to allegorical thinking! Such allegorical thinking is subjectivity, because no two people are going to see all the allegories in the same way! So, it depends largely on who does the allegorizing and what sort of following he (or she) is able to engender!

Depending on the version of the Bible one chooses to use, you're right. One doesn't have to know Greek. But, in the words of Curly of the Three Stooges, "it couldn't hoyt (hurt)!" If one only wants to know the general message of Scripture, then he or she can get that from the English versions. HOWEVER, if one wants to dig a little deeper, that is, gain more detailed information, one may or may not be able to glean enough information from English. One should then EXPECT the need to go to the original languages. The deeper one wants to go - the more detailed the information one wants to acquire, the more likely he will have to go to the Hebrew or the Greek. Therefore, the deeper one digs into the meaning of Scripture passages, the more he or she should suspect and doubt the English of that passage! No translation is one-to-one with the original document because no two languages are perfectly one-to-one in translation! Furthermore, we have guarantees from the Scriptures that they were/are the Word of God, but no such guarantee is made for ANY translation, and any time that information passes hands from one person to another, error is not only LIKELY to be introduced, it's virtually GUARANTEED to be introduced! It's called "informational thermodynamics," i.e., the entropy of information. Every human being makes mistakes and nobody is perfect! That's just a fact!

For instance, as in the account of Yeshua` asking Kefa (Peter), "Lovest thou me?" or "Do you love me?" What was the significance of Yeshua` asking him three times? Did you know that there are two different words in the Greek used in the Scriptures for "love"? Did you know that BOTH are used in this account? You can't GET that information from the English only! There just are times when one MUST resort to the original languages if one is going to get the big picture, the whole picture! Matthew 24 is no different.

Furthermore, not all "facts" of the Scriptures are INDEED facts! People make ASSUMPTIONS based on their interpretation of Scripture, and we can often jump the gun in our studies and blurt out something before we've actually researched it out to be sure our assumption was correct! IF one is okay with retraction, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing; however, many people don't like to make a retraction once they've made a statement or a claim. They tend to think of such a retraction as "losing face" and being embarrassed and/or humiliated among their peers. So, instead, they FIGHT against the correction and make the matter worse, digging in their heels against the pull of the bridle, like a stubborn mule!

The bottom line is this: The prophecy of Yeshua` in Matthew 24 is neither all in the future nor all in the past. Much of what He said BEGAN in the past but continues into the future. And, check the pronouns, verifying them with the pronouns in the Greek. When Yeshua` is DIRECTLY talking to the students that He had around Him that day, He uses the plural, second-person pronouns. When He is talking with other words or pronouns, He has often veered away from the first century into the centuries beyond.
 

Rocky Wiley

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Rocky Wiley.


The bottom line is this: The prophecy of Yeshua` in Matthew 24 is neither all in the future nor all in the past. Much of what He said BEGAN in the past but continues into the future. And, check the pronouns, verifying them with the pronouns in the Greek. When Yeshua` is DIRECTLY talking to the students that He had around Him that day, He uses the plural, second-person pronouns. When He is talking with other words or pronouns, He has often veered away from the first century into the centuries beyond.
Retrobyter,

If the scripture is wrong or I have made a mistake then the temple in Jerusalem has yet to be destroyed. Because it is not there and history tells us it was destroyed in 70 AD, then I have correctly interpreted God's word and proven that Jesus could not lie.

Be blessed
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Rocky Wiley.

Rocky Wiley said:
Retrobyter,

If the scripture is wrong or I have made a mistake then the temple in Jerusalem has yet to be destroyed. Because it is not there and history tells us it was destroyed in 70 AD, then I have correctly interpreted God's word and proven that Jesus could not lie.

Be blessed
The Scripture is neither wrong nor have you made a mistake about the Temple in Yerushalayim being destroyed in 70 A.D. And, Yeshua` did not lie. HOWEVER, don't make the mistake of thinking that just because you have those particular things correct that it somehow "proves" that you are right about correctly interpreting God's Word, especially the REST of Matthew 24. It all really proves nothing EXCEPT for those points that indeed were talking about the time before and during 70 A.D.

Such "proof" is like this:
"Let A be true, 'A points to B' be true, and 'B points to C' be true. If A points to B, and B points to C, then A points to ... Z, and Z is true!" And, one has to jump back and say, "HEY! What happened to D, E, F, G,..., and Y? How did we get to Z from C?!"

One could only say that "A points to C, and C is true." If one wants to get to Z from C (or from A), then one must do some more reasoning. Without that reasoning, too, one is only making ASSUMPTIONS that "SOMEHOW" C gets to Z!

See, I'm not doubting what you have said about Yeshua` (Jesus) warning His students about the destruction of the Temple to come; I AGREE with you!

ON THE OTHER HAND, do these places that refer to the past mean that the REST of what He said is also about the past? NO! The one cannot determine the other!

Now, it's time to move on....
 

Rocky Wiley

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Rocky Wiley.


The Scripture is neither wrong nor have you made a mistake about the Temple in Yerushalayim being destroyed in 70 A.D. And, Yeshua` did not lie. HOWEVER, don't make the mistake of thinking that just because you have those particular things correct that it somehow "proves" that you are right about correctly interpreting God's Word, especially the REST of Matthew 24. It all really proves nothing EXCEPT for those points that indeed were talking about the time before and during 70 A.D.

Such "proof" is like this:
"Let A be true, 'A points to B' be true, and 'B points to C' be true. If A points to B, and B points to C, then A points to ... Z, and Z is true!" And, one has to jump back and say, "HEY! What happened to D, E, F, G,..., and Y? How did we get to Z from C?!"

One could only say that "A points to C, and C is true." If one wants to get to Z from C (or from A), then one must do some more reasoning. Without that reasoning, too, one is only making ASSUMPTIONS that "SOMEHOW" C gets to Z!

See, I'm not doubting what you have said about Yeshua` (Jesus) warning His students about the destruction of the Temple to come; I AGREE with you!

ON THE OTHER HAND, do these places that refer to the past mean that the REST of what He said is also about the past? NO! The one cannot determine the other!

Now, it's time to move on....
Retrobyter,

If point 'a' is correct and point 'z' is correct then all in between would be correct. That would be because point 'z' would be the end of the age and everything else had to have happened. Can anyone say there has been periods without war, or that the anti-christs were not claiming to be god. How about Caesar? Earth quacks happened many times. Nothings mentioned in Matthew 24 would only pertain to our generation. But the destruction of the temple can not happen again, since is gone and a Muslim Temple sits in its place.

Jesus came to fulfill all, and the New Covenant or New Jerusalem was completed.

All the Greek knowledge will not change the Word. It has been completed.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Rocky Wiley.

Rocky Wiley said:
Retrobyter,

If point 'a' is correct and point 'z' is correct then all in between would be correct. That would be because point 'z' would be the end of the age and everything else had to have happened. Can anyone say there has been periods without war, or that the anti-christs were not claiming to be god. How about Caesar? Earth quacks happened many times. Nothings mentioned in Matthew 24 would only pertain to our generation. But the destruction of the temple can not happen again, since is gone and a Muslim Temple sits in its place.

Jesus came to fulfill all, and the New Covenant or New Jerusalem was completed.

All the Greek knowledge will not change the Word. It has been completed.
Look, brother, I'm trying to be civil about this, but you are REALLY grasping at straws! First of all, "point Z is NOT yet proven to be correct." Point Z represents your CONCLUSION, not the Scriptures, nor does it represent the "end of the age!" Haven't you ever worked with logic before?

Secondly, a "false christ" or a "lying messiah" is NOT the same thing as an "antichrist" or one who is "against the Messiah." Don't feel bad about making that blunder; there are others on this forum who have made the same error. This is about simple logic again, so let me be clear: While it is true that all those members of the set "false christs or lying messiahs" are also members of the set "antichrists or those who are against the Messiah," it is NOT true that "all the members of the set 'antichrists or those who are against the Messiah' are also members of the set 'false christs or lying messiahs.'"

Take a full sheet of clean notebook or printer paper (8.5" x 11") and draw a huge circle on the paper that almost reaches the edges of the paper. Then draw a second smaller circle within that circle. Keep the smaller circle fairly large, close to half of the distance between edges of the paper. Now, right below the top of the large circle write "antichrists or those who are against the Messiah." Then, right below the top of the inside, smaller circle write "false christs or lying messiahs." Now, any point that you draw inside the smaller circle will also be inside the larger circle, as well. BUT, not every point that you can draw inside the larger circle will also be inside the smaller circle!

Assuming you could be referring to "Vespasian" when you said "Caesar," yes, he is a point within the smaller circle as well as the larger circle, but the P'rushiym or Pharisees were NOTABLY "against the Messiah" without setting themselves up as "false messiahs." They would be in the area inside the larger circle but outside the smaller circle.

So, when you asked the question, "Can anyone say ... that the anti-christs were not claiming to be god?" the answer is "Yes! There ARE antichrists or those who are against the Messiah who were not claiming to be "god" or even a "false christ or lying messiah!" The Pharisees are such an example!

Thirdly, when you asked the former question, "Can anyone say there has been periods without war," the answer again is "YES!" There have been periods without war, even within the first century! These periods may have been characterized with "threats of war," but we've had FAR WORSE wars than those in the first century A.D. since then, and yet, Yeshua` said, "...then shall be great tribulation (Greek: thlipsis = 'pressure'), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Was Yeshua` mistaken? (I know, that's a ridiculous question.) Of course not! Then, how could He have been talking about those wars and rumors of wars in the first century up to 70 A.D. alone?! Don't you think He knew about the World Wars and the Holocaust to come?

Fourthly, I think you mean "earthquakes." Only ducks "quack." :) Sure, "earthquakes happen all the time," and they happen randomly; however, their frequency is still very low! Occasionally, you might read about a strong earthquake in California or a strong "seaquake" that causes a tidal wave in the "Pacific Ring of Fire," such as in Indonesia, Japan, Alaska, Canada, or Eastern US, or even on the islands such as Hawaii, but again, there are significant LULLS between them! Thus, "all the time" is relative and somewhat vague and misleading. There is NOT an earthquake happening every second, or every minute, or every hour, or even every day!

EQ Technologies (at http://www.earthquakealert.com/?categoryId=7779) says,

It is estimated that there are 500,000 detectable earthquakes in the world each year. 100,000 of those can be felt, and 100 of them cause damage.

Click to view the Last 7 Days Earthquakes at the USGS site.
Fifthly, my point is not to say that the destruction of THAT temple didn't happen; however, that doesn't mean that all of the prophecy is fulfilled! (And, the Muslim shrine, the "Dome of the Rock," is NOT a "Muslim temple!")

Sixthly, while Yeshua` came to fulfill all prophecy, that doesn't mean that He accomplished it all during His first advent! There's yet a second advent to come!

Finally, the Greek language is not used to change the Word; its purpose is to UNDERSTAND the Word!
 

Rocky Wiley

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Retrobyter,

Maybe I am hard headed, or maybe it is you. If the destruction of the temple did not mean the end of the age, and judgment, why did the disciples ask this question after Jesus had said the temple would be destroyed?

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The sign of thy coming is “Judgment day” , correct. The end of the world is the end of the “Old Covenant”, right?

If Jesus ignored their question and just started rambling about future generations, where is the logic? God doesn’t want us to be ignorant, and he doesn’t desire that we know Greek to understand. He just wants us to know him. It is the lost that can not understand clear language, and I certainly don’t think you are in that catagory.

With the understanding that Jesus is talking to his disciples, Jews, let us consider.

Destruction of Jerusalem:
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
When ‘ye’ shall see, the disciples, would see the things that Daniel had written about.

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Those that are in Jerusalem, primarily Jews who believe, they should flee.

Tribulation:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Read the books by Josephus “Wars of the Jews”, he was there and he plainly points out how bad it was.
Understand, Jesus is not speaking about a church that had not yet come about, he was speaking about the Jews that were his chosen the very ones that he had come to as their Messiah. He would not talk about those things that they would not understand.

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Again he says “When ye” the disciples shall see.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
“Verily I say unto you” the disciples, “this generation” their generation, “all these things be fulfilled.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
“Heaven and earth” do you realize this is speaking about the same heaven and earth that is in the Book of Revelation and that is speaking of the Old covenant passing away and the New covenant being completed.

It all relates to ‘Jesus coming in judgment and the end of the age’.

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Speaking of the scribes and Pharisees of that generation.

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
They would do these things

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Upon his audience would come judgment.

Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
He says to them that all these things shall come upon their generation, not a future generation.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Again he speaks of his chosen people ‘Jews’ not accepting him.

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Your temple is made desolate (destroyed, just as he had told his disciples it would be).

Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
They would not see him again until he came in judgment, but he is saying that they would see him again.

Make the scriptures hard to understand if you want to but God has made them very clear.

Be blessed





 

whirlwind

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Rocky Wiley said:
Maybe I am hard headed, or maybe it is you. If the destruction of the temple did not mean the end of the age, and judgment, why did the disciples ask this question after Jesus had said the temple would be destroyed?

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?





[/quote]


The destruction of the temple in 70AD was simply a blip on history. It was already a dead temple standing when Jesus spoke to His disciples on the mount of Olives.

24:1-3 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and His disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

1. That was the last time Jesus was in the temple. It meant nothing after that.

2. The temple was not the only thing spoken of. It was the "buildings of the temple," which includes it's foundation. That is the western wall...the wall of great stones, one upon another, that He would be looking toward as He spoke from the mount of Olives. They STILL STAND.

3. In that chapter He taught of what would happen then and in the future.


24:33-34 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.



All these things have to happen before the generation He spoke of would see the end. That is the last generation.

We are the temple of the Lord.
Retrobyter


The two genealogical lines of Jesus to David, given in Matthew and Luke, are interesting. One gives the "as was supposed" or legal line from Joseph the step-father of Christ to king David. The other gives us His blood line through Mary to king David through Solomon and goes back to Adam.


The clue is in counting the "fourteen generations" shown in "Matthew 1." That is the blood lineage. The "husband of Mary" is incorrectly translated and should read....the father of Mary. Both her father and her husband were named Joseph. Only then can one count the "fourteen generations."

Matthew 1:16-17 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
 

Rocky Wiley

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whirlwind said:
The destruction of the temple in 70AD was simply a blip on history. It was already a dead temple standing when Jesus spoke to His disciples on the mount of Olives.
Whirlwind,

I have already showed you scripture, and you refuse to acknowledge them. So, this time, I just say.

You are wrong!
 

whirlwind

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Rocky Wiley said:
Whirlwind,

I have already showed you scripture, and you refuse to acknowledge them. So, this time, I just say.

You are wrong!

Rocky, are stones till standing one upon another?

Rocky, are we the temple of the Lord?
 

Rocky Wiley

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whirlwind said:
Rocky, are stones till standing one upon another?

Rocky, are we the temple of the Lord?
Whirlwind,

The temple Jesus was speaking of was the temple in Jerusalem built on Mount Moriah. The wailing wall that you say was one of the temple's wall is wrong. The wailing wall was a support wall and was not a part of the temple. Jesus said he would destroyed all of that temple, and he did!

We are the temple of God, as you correctly state. But in the case above, we are not the temple he was speaking of.

One should not go against the Word of God. It is either all right or it's all wrong. For God to be wrong means he is not God.

Be blessed
 

whirlwind

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Rocky Wiley said:
Whirlwind,

The temple Jesus was speaking of was the temple in Jerusalem built on Mount Moriah. The wailing wall that you say was one of the temple's wall is wrong. The wailing wall was a support wall and was not a part of the temple. Jesus said he would destroyed all of that temple, and he did!

We are the temple of God, as you correctly state. But in the case above, we are not the temple he was speaking of.

One should not go against the Word of God. It is either all right or it's all wrong. For God to be wrong means he is not God.

Be blessed

Jesus was asked about the "buildings of the temple," and the foundation was certainly part of that. He did not say "all of that temple" would be destroyed. He said:


Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mark 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


Luke 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


God is never wrong. Our understanding is wrong and Scripture, when read properly, corrects us.
 

Rocky Wiley

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whirlwind said:
Jesus was asked about the "buildings of the temple," and the foundation was certainly part of that. He did not say "all of that temple" would be destroyed. He said:


Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mark 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


Luke 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


God is never wrong. Our understanding is wrong and Scripture, when read properly, corrects us.
Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Let me see, the disciples would show him the buildings of the temple and Jesus instead would include support a wall built along the side of the mount that did not even touch the temple. In doing so he failed to do what he said he was going to do. Right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Wall

God's word speaks for its self, I only use scripture for what it says.
 

whirlwind

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Rocky Wiley said:
Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Let me see, the disciples would show him the buildings of the temple and Jesus instead would include support a wall built along the side of the mount that did not even touch the temple. In doing so he failed to do what he said he was going to do. Right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Wall

God's word speaks for its self, I only use scripture for what it says.

God's Word does speak for itself...do we have ears to hear?

The temple was a place void of God. Why would it's destruction matter to Him? He told His disciples... "there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." What do you see standing there today?

Folks that try their best to make the 70AD event as the END OF THE WORLD are not seeing and hearing. They are trying to pigeon-hole one thing as the fulfillment of all things He spoke of. IT WON'T work!!!


Preterism is A GREAT BIG LIE!!!
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, all.

Let's continue.

Here it is, the ONE TIME in human history when Chanukkah falls on Thanksgiving. (Thanksgiving hasn't been around long enough to have had another such occurrence, and if the USA doesn't survive for another 4,700 years, it won't happen again, since the holiday of Thanksgiving is an American holiday.)

But, another holiday is rapidly approaching, Christmas. It seems appropriate that we look at the events in Matthew associated with that Christian holiday. First, let me say that I don't believe that Yeshua` (Jesus) was born on Christmas. There's too much Scriptural, internal evidence to suggest that Yeshua`s birthday was in the Fall, not at the Winter Solstice. It was probably timed by God to be at the first feast day of Sukkot, the festival of Booths or Tabernacles (in English). Ironically, this possibility also has the side effect of making the time of Christmas (which is usually when Chanukkah falls) the time when Yeshua` was CONCEIVED! Chanukkah celebrates the supernatural giving of the light, when God supernaturally extended the oil in the lamps to burn much longer than expected, until a new supply of oil could be acquired. Yeshua`, the true Light of the world, was given at that time of the year, and He came and dwelt among us - tabernacled among us - at Sukkot, nine months or 40 weeks later!

So, let's look at Matittyahu's account in the second chapter:

Matthew 2:1-23
2:1 After Yeshua was born in Beit-Lechem ("House of-Bread") in the land of Y’hudah during the time when Herod was king, Magi from the east came to Yerushalayim 2 and asked, “Where is the newborn King of the Jews? For we saw his star in the east and have come to worship (bow the knee to) him.”

3 When King Herod heard of this he became very agitated, and so did everyone else in Yerushalayim. 4 He called together all the head cohanim (priests) and Torah-teachers of the people and asked them, “Where will the Messiah be born?” 5 “In Beit-Lechem of Y’hudah,” they replied, “because the prophet wrote,

6 ‘And you, Beit-Lechem in the land of Y’hudah,
are by no means the least among the rulers of Y’hudah;
for from you will come a Ruler
who will shepherd my people Isra’el.’” (Micah 5:1)

7 Herod summoned the Magi to meet with him privately and asked them exactly when the star had appeared. 8 Then he sent them to Beit-Lechem with these instructions: “Search carefully for the child; and when you find him, let me know, so that I too may go and worship him.”

9 After they had listened to the king, they went away; and the star which they had seen in the east went in front of them until it came and stopped over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. 11 Upon entering the house, they saw the child with his mother Miryam; and they prostrated themselves and worshipped him. Then they opened their bags and presented him gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh. 12 But they had been warned in a dream not to return to Herod, so they took another route back to their own country.

13 After they had gone, an angel of Adonai appeared to Yosef in a dream and said, “Get up, take the child and his mother, and escape to Egypt, and stay there until I tell you to leave. For Herod is going to look for the child in order to kill him.” 14 So he got up, took the child and his mother, and left during the night for Egypt, 15 where he stayed until Herod died. This happened in order to fulfill what Adonai had said through the prophet,

“Out of Egypt I called my son.” (Hosea 11:1)

16 Meanwhile, when Herod realized that the Magi had tricked him, he was furious and gave orders to kill all the boys in and around Beit-Lechem who were two years old or less, calculating from the time the Magi had told him. 17 In this way were fulfilled the words spoken through the prophet Yirmeyahu,

18 “A voice was heard in Ramah,
sobbing and lamenting loudly.
It was Rachel sobbing for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no longer alive.” (Jeremiah 31:14)

19 After Herod’s death, an angel of Adonai appeared in a dream to Yosef in Egypt 20 and said, “Get up, take the child and his mother, and go to Eretz-Yisra’el (the Land of Isra'el), for those who wanted to kill the child are dead.” 21 So he got up, took the child and his mother, and went back to Eretz-Yisra’el. 22 However, when he heard that Archelaus had succeeded his father Herod as king of Y’hudah, he was afraid to go there. Warned in a dream, he withdrew to the Galil 23 and settled in a town called Natzeret, so that what had been spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled, that he will be called a Natzrati.
CJB

So, here again, the focus is on the fact that He was said to be the newly born King of the Jews. (Of course, Yeshua` was probably already about 2 years old by the time the Magi arrived, because, based on what the Magi told Herod, Herod killed all the boy children in and around Beit-Lechem 2 years old or younger.)

And, here is where the Greek comes into play: The word "child" in verse 14 above is not the Greek word "brefos" (an "infant," whether a unborn baby or newborn baby); it's the word "paidion" (the diminutive form of "pais" = "child") meaning "a little child" or "toddler."
 

Rocky Wiley

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whirlwind said:
God's Word does speak for itself...do we have ears to hear?

The temple was a place void of God. Why would it's destruction matter to Him? He told His disciples... "there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." What do you see standing there today?

Folks that try their best to make the 70AD event as the END OF THE WORLD are not seeing and hearing. They are trying to pigeon-hole one thing as the fulfillment of all things He spoke of. IT WON'T work!!!


Preterism is A GREAT BIG LIE!!!
Whirlwind,

I am really sorry that you feel that way. At one time I felt the same but by taking a look at it by just comparing scripture with scripture it became clear.

To God the temple in Jerusalem was very important, even the disciples continued to go there to pray, check the book of Acts. The temple was where God and man meet, and he would not judge until the end of the age, and the reason for destruction of the temple was to break any ties to the place where he had met with man. Ask the Jews, they know they can not make any sacrifices without it.

Once God completed his divorce with the old, he was free to marry the new. That is the way God set it up, that is why mankind can divorce another for the reason of adultery.

Just one more thing, the temple set on Mount Mariah where Abraham went to sacrifice his son, where Jacob had his vision when he saw a stairway to heaven, and Solomon built the temple. It was holy ground, both to God and the Jew.

Be blessed
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Rocky Wiley

Rocky Wiley said:
Retrobyter,

Maybe I am hard headed, or maybe it is you. If the destruction of the temple did not mean the end of the age, and judgment, why did the disciples ask this question after Jesus had said the temple would be destroyed?

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The sign of thy coming is “Judgment day” , correct. The end of the world is the end of the “Old Covenant”, right?

If Jesus ignored their question and just started rambling about future generations, where is the logic? God doesn’t want us to be ignorant, and he doesn’t desire that we know Greek to understand. He just wants us to know him. It is the lost that can not understand clear language, and I certainly don’t think you are in that catagory.

With the understanding that Jesus is talking to his disciples, Jews, let us consider.

Destruction of Jerusalem:
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
When ‘ye’ shall see, the disciples, would see the things that Daniel had written about.

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Those that are in Jerusalem, primarily Jews who believe, they should flee.

Tribulation:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Read the books by Josephus “Wars of the Jews”, he was there and he plainly points out how bad it was.
Understand, Jesus is not speaking about a church that had not yet come about, he was speaking about the Jews that were his chosen the very ones that he had come to as their Messiah. He would not talk about those things that they would not understand.

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Again he says “When ye” the disciples shall see.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
“Verily I say unto you” the disciples, “this generation” their generation, “all these things be fulfilled.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
“Heaven and earth” do you realize this is speaking about the same heaven and earth that is in the Book of Revelation and that is speaking of the Old covenant passing away and the New covenant being completed.

It all relates to ‘Jesus coming in judgment and the end of the age’.

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Speaking of the scribes and Pharisees of that generation.

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
They would do these things

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Upon his audience would come judgment.

Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
He says to them that all these things shall come upon their generation, not a future generation.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Again he speaks of his chosen people ‘Jews’ not accepting him.

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Your temple is made desolate (destroyed, just as he had told his disciples it would be).

Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
They would not see him again until he came in judgment, but he is saying that they would see him again.

Make the scriptures hard to understand if you want to but God has made them very clear.

Be blessed
In answer to your first question, "If the destruction of the temple did not mean the end of the age, and judgment, why did the disciples ask this question after Jesus had said the temple would be destroyed?" one simply needs to THINK about who His disciples were! They were men of Isra'el WHO HAD NEVER KNOWN THE LAND TO BE WITHOUT A PHYSICAL TEMPLE!

It had ALWAYS been there as long as they could remember! They went to Jerusalem often, at least once a year and preferably three times a year! It shook them to the core to think it would all be completely devastated! They were likely thinking, "How can we survive as a people without the Temple?" They weren't asking just one question; they were asking THREE questions! (1) "When shall these things (about the Temple) be?" (2) "What shall be the sign of thy coming?" and (3) "(What shall be the sign) of the end of the age (Greek: aioonos = "age," not "world")?" The logic is that they NEEDED SOME COMFORT! They needed some assurances about the future! They knew that Yeshua` was the Messiah (the Christ), i.e., the One anointed to be King, but they were learning that their hopes for His reign were being shattered and things were changing as He was rejected by that generation's leadership.

In answer to your next two questions (one missing its question mark), wrong and wrong. "The sign of thy coming" is NOT the “Judgment Day.” While it will be A judgment day of sorts, it is not THE Great White Throne Judgment that occurs at the END of the Millennium. Furthermore, the "end of the world (or age)" is NOT the end of the “Old Covenant" at all. The "Old Covenant" does NOT pass away! It is ABSORBED into the New Covenant! Get a handle on that, because it changes EVERYTHING in one's outlook! The author of Hebrews was MISTRANSLATED and therefore was misconstrued!

Hebrews 8:8-13
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
KJV

This is a quotation from Yirmeyahu's prophecy.

Jeremiah 31:31-37
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law (TORAH) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall ALL know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
KJV

But, consider carefully Yeshua`s words in Matthew 5:17-20:

Matthew 5:17-20
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law (Torah), or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot (reference to the Hebrew letter "yod") or one tittle (reference to the "kowts" or "thorn" of a letter as what differentiates between a "reish" and a "dalet") shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
KJV

The point is that the Old Covenant was not destroyed or replaced; it was ABSORBED and BECAME A PART OF the New! The New Covenant DOESN'T EXIST without the Old within it! "I will put my law (TORAH) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts!" That's not possible if the Torah, which is part of the Covenant, is destroyed!

The four important words used in Hebrews 8:13 were "pepalaiooken," which is translated as "he hath made ... old" in the KJV; "palaioumenon," which is translated as "decayeth"; "geeraskon," which is translated as "waxeth old"; and "afanismou," which is translated as "to vanish away." Here are Strong's definitions (the first two coming from the same root word):

NT:3822 palaio-oo (pal-ah-yo'-o); from NT:3820; to make (passively, become) worn out, or declare obsolete:
KJV - decay, make (wax) old.

NT:3820 palaios (pal-ah-yos'); from NT:3819; antique, i.e. not recent, worn out:
KJV - old.

NT:3819 palai (pal'-ahee); probably another form for NT:3825 (through the idea of retrocession); (adverbially) formerly, or (by relatively) sometime since; (elliptically as adjective) ancient:
KJV - any while, a great while ago, (of) old, in time past.

NT:3825 palin (pal'-in); probably from the same as NT:3823 (through the idea of oscillatory repetition); (adverbially) anew, i.e. (of place) back, (of time) once more, or (conjunctionally) furthermore or on the other hand:
KJV - again.

NT:1095 geeraskoo (ghay-ras'-ko); from NT:1094; to be senescent:
KJV - be (wax) old.

NT:1094 geeras (ghay'-ras); akin to NT:1088; senility:
KJV - old age.

NT:1088 geroon (gher'-own); of uncertain affinity [compare NT:1094]; aged:
KJV - old.

NT:854 aphanismos (af-an-is-mos'); from NT:853; disappearance, i.e. (figuratively) abrogation:
KJV - vanish away.

NT:853 aphanizoo (af-an-id'-zo); from NT:852; to render unapparent, i.e. (actively) consume (becloud), or (passively) disappear (be destroyed):
KJV - corrupt, disfigure, perish, vanish away.

NT:852 aphanees (af-an-ace'); from NT:1 (as a negative particle) and NT:5316; non-apparent):
KJV - that is not manifest.

NT:5316 phainoo (fah'-ee-no); prolongation for the base of NT:5457; to lighten (shine), i.e. show (transitive or intransitive, literal or figurative):
KJV - appear, seem, be seen, shine, X think.


(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

("Senescent" is defined as "growing old; aging." "Abrogation" is defined as "an abolishment or annulment by formal or official means; a repealing" or "a putting aside; a putting an end to.")

Thus, all that the author of Hebrews was suggesting is that the Old is relegated to the background. One must remember the social structure of the Hebrews in this time period. They HONOR their elders! They don't euthanize them! They don't assign them to an "Old Folks' Home" and forget about them! The New SUPERSEDES the Old, but the Old does not pass away! Just as a younger man takes over the tasks for an elder, and the elder acquiesces to a SUPERVISORY role, so too, the Old is not gone but is in the background of the New! The Old is READY to be superseded!
____

Now, the three ages of this earth are found in 2 Peter 3:3-13, separated by the Flood and the Fire.

2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

Thus, it is quite easy to set up a simple chart:

1) The antediluvian world = the first earth and its first skies (first heavens)
2) The Flood of Noach
3) The present world = the second earth and its second skies (second heavens)
4) The Fire of the Day of the Lord
5) The future world = the third earth and its third skies (third heavens)

What one should understand is that according to these verses, Revelation 20:1-15; 21:1-2, and 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, the "Day of the Lord" corresponds to the "Great White Throne Judgment" and the time when Yeshua` subdues death, His final enemy.

Revelation 20:1-21:2
20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
KJV


1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

Yeshua` returns a thousand years before the Judgment Day. The reason why this might be confusing is that when Yeshua` reigns on earth for that 1000-year period, He will be literally glowing as He did in the transfiguration and as He is described at the beginning of Revelation:

Matthew 16:28-17:13
16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
KJV

Mark 9:1-13
1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?
12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.
KJV

Luke 9:27-36
27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.
KJV

Revelation 1:12-16
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
KJV


Remember how Paul described his encounter with Yeshua`?

Acts 22:6-11
6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
KJV

Acts 26:13-18
13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
KJV

Yeshua` will LITERALLY reign in His brightness brighter than the sun! This is why 2 Peter 3:8 says

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The whole 1000-year period is ONE DAY! Why? Because Yeshua` will be shining brighter than the sun! As long as He is present, the Sun of Righteousness will never set! He has arisen with healing in His wings! (Malachi 4:2) The "End of the Age" is AFTER the coming 1000-year period! It is THEN that Peter's words in 2 Peter 3:7 "the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" occurs at the END of the Day, not at the BEGINNING!

One can quote Matthew 23 and 24 until he's blue in the face, but if one doesn't start with a right foundation, one will NEVER get them right!

Shalom, whirlwind.

whirlwind said:
...

Retrobyter


The two genealogical lines of Jesus to David, given in Matthew and Luke, are interesting. One gives the "as was supposed" or legal line from Joseph the step-father of Christ to king David. The other gives us His blood line through Mary to king David through Solomon and goes back to Adam.


The clue is in counting the "fourteen generations" shown in "Matthew 1." That is the blood lineage. The "husband of Mary" is incorrectly translated and should read....the father of Mary. Both her father and her husband were named Joseph. Only then can one count the "fourteen generations."

Matthew 1:16-17 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
That's not precisely true. Miryam's (Mary's) lineage IS found in Luke 3, and her line was through David's son NATAN (NATHAN), not Shlomoh (Solomon)! It was Yosef (Joseph) who was an heir to Shlomoh (Solomon). Furthermore, neither the word for "husband" NOR for "father" is found in Matthew 1:16. It's the word "andros" meaning "a man." It's the Greek word from which we get "androgen," the male steroid hormone, and "android," which means "man-like." However, it IS the word that MEANS "husband" in practical, conversational Koinee Greek. It's like saying that "Joseph was Mary's MAN!" You dig?

In Luke 3:23 Yosef who was "counted" (Greek: "hoos enomizeto" translated "as was supposed") as Yeshua`s father, was "of `Eeliy" (Eeli or Heli); however, this is Miryam's bloodline because a man can only have two fathers if you count his FATHER-IN-LAW as his father (or an adopted father, which was pretty much the same thing to Hebrews, a father BY LAW)!

NT:5613 hoos (hoce); probably adverb of comparative from NT:3739; which how, i.e. in that manner (very variously used, as follows):
KJV - about, after (that), (according) as (it had been, it were), as soon (as), even as (like), for, how (greatly), like (as, unto), since, so (that), that, to wit, unto, when ([-soever]), while, X with all speed.

NT:3543 nomizoo (nom-id'-zo); from NT:3551; properly, to do by law (usage), i.e. to accustom (passively, be usual); by extension, to deem or regard:
KJV - suppose, thing, be wont.


(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

What I find interesting is that these two blood lines are INTERTWINED together, for they BOTH had in their lineage Z'rubavel (Zerubbabel) the son of Sh'altiy'eel (Salathiel), the one who returned to the Land of Isra'el after the Babylonian/Persian Captivity.

Yosef was of the line of kings through THE INHERITANCE OF BROTHERS; Miryam was of another line of David WITH ITS OWN INHERITANCE. The branching in the family tree was ever replacing members that were severed without an heir. This goes back to an AMENDMENT to the Laws of the Torah:

Numbers 27:1-11
27:1 Then the daughters of Tz’lof’chad the son of Hefer, the son of Gil‘ad, the son of Machir, the son of M’nasheh, of the families of M’nasheh, the son of Yosef, approached. These were the names of his daughters: Machlah, No‘ah, Hoglah, Milkah and Tirtzah. 2 They stood in front of Moshe, El‘azar the cohen, the leaders and the whole community at the entrance to the tent of meeting and said, 3 “Our father died in the desert. He wasn’t part of the group who assembled themselves to rebel against Adonai in Korach’s group, but he died in his own sin, and he had no sons. 4 Why should the name of our father be eliminated from his family just because he didn’t have a son? Give us property to possess along with the brothers of our father.” 5 Moshe brought their cause before Adonai.
6 Adonai answered Moshe, 7 “The daughters of Tz’lof’chad are right in what they say. You must give them property to be inherited along with that of their father’s brothers; have what their father would have inherited pass to them. 8 Moreover, say to the people of Isra’el, ‘If a man dies and does not have a son, you are to have his inheritance pass to his daughter. 9 If he doesn’t have a daughter, give his inheritance to his brothers. 10 If he has no brothers, give his inheritance to his father’s brothers. 11 If his father doesn’t have brothers, give his inheritance to the closest relative in his family, and he will possess it. This will be the standard for judgment to be used by the people of Isra’el, as Adonai ordered Moshe.’”
CJB

I suppose we won't be done with this until we diagram it out. After all, "a picture is worth a thousand words."

Avraham-Yitschaq-Ya`aqov-Y'hudah-Perets-Hetsrown-Ram-`Amminadav-Nachshown-Salmown-Bo`az-`Oved-Yishai-Daveed 14 names.
Shlomoh-Rechav`am-Aviyahu-Asa-Y'howshaafat-Yoram-`Uziyahu-Yotam-Achaz-Hizkiyahu-M'nasheh-Amown-Yoshiyahu-Y'khanyahu, 14 names.
Y'khanyahu-Sh'altiel-Z'rubavel-Avihuwd-Elyakiym-`Azur-Tsadoq-Yakhiyn-El'ichuwd-El`azar-Mattan-Ya`aqov-Yosef-Yeshua, 14 names.

The "generations" are NOT the lifespans of each person! They are the GENERATION of a new person! Daveed and Shlomoh are counted one time each because theirs was a CO-REGENCY for at least a little while. Shlomoh took over the Kingdom before Daveed died, and Daveed lived on for some time and gave Shlomoh advice concerning a few of the trouble-makers.

Y'khanyahu is mentioned twice in the count because it was not based on HIM; it was based on the time of the Babylonian/Persian Captivity! Furthermore, he was indeed a different person after the Captivity than before, and he SURVIVED the Captivity! So, just as Avraham's name was counted in the first 14 names, so Y'khanyahu's name was counted in the last 14 names.

Finally, and most important, you've got to realize that OUR definition of "generation" is slightly different than THEIR definition of "generation." Here, the two languages do not line up one-to-one. If you check the records in Genesis through 2 Chronicles, particularly 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings, and 1 and 2 Chronicles, you will find that there are SEVERAL names that were SKIPPED in these genealogies! Why? It's simply because a "generation" is based on the CHARACTER and INDIVIDUALITY of the person involved! If the person was not a leader and simply followed in his daddy's footsteps, they were still considered the same generation! This is CRITICAL to understanding why the names were skipped! They weren't counted because THEY DIDN'T COUNT!