I am not making claims but asking you to tell us what you believe about Gospel truth. Opinions must be based on Scripture.
Beware of Men's Leaven on Rome
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You made this claim,
"Whether you call it the Catholic Church, the Roman Catholic Church, the Coptic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, etc., all these traditionalist church groups have incorporated false doctrines and practices into their religious systems. They may call them "Holy Tradition" but whatever is not based upon Bible truth cannot be true."
So where is your evidence to back up that claim?
After that I asked you to tell us what you believe about justification by grace through faith and imputed righteousness. That would establish whether the Catholic Church has incorporated false doctrines or not. So tell us what you believe.
It's not all that difficult if one stays in God's Word by The Holy Spirit. Our Heavenly Father gave us tons of clues, some of them acting as direct pointers that cannot apply to anyone else. Most brethren just read right over them even though they are in plain sight in Scripture.
Someone who listens to men instead of The Holy Spirit won't have a clue, which is why Revelation 17:8 says the whole world will wonder when they behold the beast.
bbyrd009
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You don't seem to understand the principles of a debate.
You make a claim - you provide the evidence to back up the claim
And don't bother with grace through faith and imputation - that's being flogged to death already.
You claimed false doctrines and practices - plural - so you should have plenty to choose from for a start.
Just open your Bible and read it. That evidence was provided by God. Can't get any better.
In other words you are making accusations that you cannot support.
Have you read the Bible?
“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" (Ex 20 :16)
"Do not lie to one another" (Col 3:9)
Or did you miss those bits?
Nondenom40
Active Member
What distinctly roman catholic doctrines or dogmas are based on scripture? None! Take marys assumption for instance. Karl Keating the founder of catholic answers says its not found anywhere in the bible. By your definition it cannot be true. And on this point i'd agree.
Why is - whatever is not based on Bible truth (or at least based on your personal interpretation of the bible) cannot be true?
Where is the bible truth for that statement?
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
It seems to me that there are other FALSE doctrines which purportedly "point to Rome", specifically:
1. The FALSE assertion that the Daniel 2 sequence of empires is a purported: 1,2,3,4a/4b; and that Daniel 7 purportedly parallels these "same 4 empires". But the TRUTH is, Dan. 2:45 correctly specifies FIVE world empires (4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE); and Daniel 7 details the participants in the FIFTH "DIVIDED" empire.
2. The FALSE assertion that Rome fulfills the Rev. 17 Seven Mountains/Seven Kings.
2. The FALSE assertion that Rome fulfills the Rev. 17 Seven Mountains/Seven Kings.
So there are complicit FALSE doctrines which contribute to your conclusion.
And finally, Dan. 11:45 supports your premise that the one-world-government (the United Nations and it's Secretary General) will set up his Headquarters in Jerusalem. All we have to do is continue to watch world events unfold.
Bobby Jo
Nondenom40
Active Member
I simply used your statement and applied it to the teachings of the rcc. They are not in the bible therefore not true.
You haven't explained why something is not true if it is not in the Bible.
Where is the evidence for that statement?
Hippolytus (born 170 A.D.) On the Antichrist:
"Now, as our Lord Jesus Christ, who is also God, was prophesied of under the figure of a lion, on account of His royalty and glory, in the same way have the Scriptures also aforetime spoken of Antichrist as a lion, on account of his tyranny and violence. For the deceiver seeks to liken himself in all things to the Son of God. Christ is a lion, so Antichrist is also a lion; Christ is a king,John 18:37 so Antichrist is also a king. The Saviour was manifested as a lamb; John 1:29 so he too, in like manner, will appear as a lamb, though within he is a wolf. The Saviour came into the World in the circumcision, and he will come in the same manner. The Lord sent apostles among all the nations, and he in like manner will send false apostles. The Saviour gathered together the sheep that were scattered abroad, and he in like manner will bring together a people that is scattered abroad. The Lord gave a seal to those who believed on Him, and he will give one like manner. The Saviour appeared in the form of man, and he too will come in the form of a man. The Saviour raised up and showed His holy flesh like a temple, John 2:19 and he will raise a temple of stone in Jerusalem." (from CHURCH FATHERS: On Christ and Antichrist (Hippolytus))
That 2nd century writing shows understanding in Scripture about the Antichrist prophesied to appear in Jerusalem and set himself up as God, not in Rome. And Hippolytus himself was an Antipope. Hippolytus even showed the idea of a temple of stone in Jerusalem being part of that (it's written, it's in Rev.11:1-2). And that idea of the Antichrist coming into "the World of circumcision" was a direct pointer to the Antichrist being of Jewish descent, not a Gentile from Rome.
"Now, as our Lord Jesus Christ, who is also God, was prophesied of under the figure of a lion, on account of His royalty and glory, in the same way have the Scriptures also aforetime spoken of Antichrist as a lion, on account of his tyranny and violence. For the deceiver seeks to liken himself in all things to the Son of God. Christ is a lion, so Antichrist is also a lion; Christ is a king,John 18:37 so Antichrist is also a king. The Saviour was manifested as a lamb; John 1:29 so he too, in like manner, will appear as a lamb, though within he is a wolf. The Saviour came into the World in the circumcision, and he will come in the same manner. The Lord sent apostles among all the nations, and he in like manner will send false apostles. The Saviour gathered together the sheep that were scattered abroad, and he in like manner will bring together a people that is scattered abroad. The Lord gave a seal to those who believed on Him, and he will give one like manner. The Saviour appeared in the form of man, and he too will come in the form of a man. The Saviour raised up and showed His holy flesh like a temple, John 2:19 and he will raise a temple of stone in Jerusalem." (from CHURCH FATHERS: On Christ and Antichrist (Hippolytus))
That 2nd century writing shows understanding in Scripture about the Antichrist prophesied to appear in Jerusalem and set himself up as God, not in Rome. And Hippolytus himself was an Antipope. Hippolytus even showed the idea of a temple of stone in Jerusalem being part of that (it's written, it's in Rev.11:1-2). And that idea of the Antichrist coming into "the World of circumcision" was a direct pointer to the Antichrist being of Jewish descent, not a Gentile from Rome.
Nondenom40
Active Member
Concerning doctrine, ya. Jude 3 ...contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints. "Once for all", past tense. The faith was delivered in the first century not parsed out over a millennia or two.
Sure, but that doesn't say that the only truth is that which was written down and canonised - i.e scripture.
There is also a logical problem. How do you know that Jude 3 is true?
You have to have a verification of the Bible that is outside the Bible.
Nondenom40
Active Member
The faith was delivered once for all. Not sure why that is difficult to understand. Doctrines and dogmas coming down later....some much later are not biblical doctrines or dogmas. That also shouldn't be too hard to understand.
Ah the old lets cast doubt on Gods word. Never miss an opportunity to throw Gods word under the bus! If you don't have faith in it, then don't post from it. Not my problem.
"The faith was delivered once and for all."
Yes the Catholic |Church believes that. Revelation ceased with the death of the last apostle.
But the pondering on what had been delivered went on for centuries - and still continues.
During the early centuries (apart from persecution) the Church's biggest fight was against heresies - mainly about Christology (Adoptionism, Docetism Modelism, Arianism). Finally in 325 the first gathering of Church leaders at Nicaea could start making definitive definitions. This was followed by Constantinople (381), Ephesus (431 & 449), Chalcedon (451) etc. These were not inventing new dogmas and doctrines but defining truths about Christ from what had been handed down.
Not casting doubt on God's word but asking "how do you know what is God's word?"
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
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