Bible alone?

[BreadOfLife]

The elders of the local church have authority in matters of discipline.

When different local assemblies disagree- if they cannot work it out- they go their spearate ways hopefully as brethren with a disagreement.

The church has no central head. In the 1st Century James led the Jerusalem wing and Paul was the defacto head of teh gentile wing. But Paul taught men who appointed elders throughout the region, to run the local assemblies

The concept of a centralized authority did not begin until after Constantine legalized Christianity and the Bishop of rome became the first among equals later on.

This is absolute Biblical and historical fairy tale.

In Acts 15, Paul and Barnabas went to the APOSTLES to deal with the issue of the Judaizers. They didn't "handle" this on their own. This is a perfect example of how the Early church made sure that they were ALL on the same page doctrinally.
And remember what they wrote as their unified decision:

Acts 15:23-29
“The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled youd with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, it has seemed good to US, having come to ONE ACCORD, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the SAME THINGS by word of mouth. For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality.

This is the very PICTURE of a centralized hierarchy within the Church.
Your nonsense about Constantine is the usual anti-Catholic manure that has ZERO basis in historical truth.

 

[Illuminator]

This would be incorrect!

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

ye may know does not mean ye will know

14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

And this is the confidence that we have in him means we have to cooperate with God's grace that He gave us in the first place. Calvinism cannot fathom this truth. One cannot have confidence in Him without cooperating with God's grace. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. The first half of the verse describes ACTION on our part, the second part of the verse, according to his will, that all men respond to His grace. It does not mean that God will hear us on the condition that He thought of it in the first place. That's Islam, not Christianity.
God's will is that all men may be saved.

A) God gives grace
B) we respond with confidence

God does not give grace because we first have confidence. That's works righteousness.

This pattern is automatic when Christians of any flavor do good works. Faith, Hope and Charity are inseparable cardinal virtues in order for faith alone to work. We don't make false dichotomies between faith and works (charity, faith in action). It gets me when I hear complaints from Christians who actually do the very thing they complain about.

 

[Candidus]

Historically, what books were considered Scripture?

BTW....Numerically there are more Catholics and Orthodox that accept the 7 books you reject so your “very few people” statement is backwards. Actually very few people accept your stance.

There are more Muslims than Catholics... therefore the only Scripture that is valid by your argument is in the Koran.

 

[CadyandZoe]

From the Bible alone how do we know what is the Bible and what is not the Bible?

How do you know that the Catholic church is THE church? How do you know that the Bishop of Rome is an actual Bishop?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Except I find Sola Scriptura to be the opposite of that.

"Sola Scriptura" is about men telling me about which words they find to be God's words (limiting it to just those words), and their interpretation of it (and just thier interpretation). Anything that varies from that is not accepted. It makes them and their views king.

It's not about me directly embracing a living God whom still speaks & enlightens.

Do you believe every word that someone tells you? I don't think you do. And neither do I. That being the case, for me, Sola Scriptura becomes the standard measure of truth against which I measure all other claims at truth. How do we assess who is a false prophet? How do we assess who is a false teacher? If such people teach anything other than what we find in the Bible then we reject what they teach. Right? If someone teaches you that a large donation of money will move your relatives from limbo to heaven? Search the scriptures.

 

[CadyandZoe]

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

tradition, that which is handed down, is both oral and scripture?

Notice that Paul is speaking in the past tense here. He is talking about doctrines that existed as of the time of his writing. He is NOT suggesting that we believe and obey other traditions that might come after that.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Jane is right, Scripture alone seams to be based on private judgement or personal interpretation.

It is true that one's exegesis is based on personal judgment. But this holds true for any written document including a catechism, a creed, or a magisterium.

The basis of a proper exegesis, however, is not a question of what I think the passage means. The correct exegesis depends on what the original author intended by his words. Sola scriptura, properly understood, teaches us that if a catechism, creed, or magisterium contradicts the Holy Scriptures, the Holy Scriptures take precedence. To put it another way, the Holy Scriptures are the only reliable source of truth concerning the will of God. Any source that contradicts the scripture must be rejected. Any word, coming from a preacher, a teacher or a pope must be rejected if it contradicts the scriptures.

Anyone who tells you that YOU can't use your own judgment to attain a proper exegesis is wrong. Anyone who teaches about an inspired interpretation is wrong. God gifted us with the printing press so that all peoples everywhere would have access to his holy word. If everyone in church owns a Bible, reads it on a daily basis, studies the Bible faithfully, this will guard the church against ravenous wolves who seek to devour you.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Do you believe every word that someone tells you? I don't think you do. And neither do I. That being the case, for me, Sola Scriptura becomes the standard measure of truth against which I measure all other claims at truth. How do we assess who is a false prophet? How do we assess who is a false teacher? If such people teach anything other than what we find in the Bible then we reject what they teach. Right? If someone teaches you that a large donation of money will move your relatives from limbo to heaven? Search the scriptures.

It is true that one's exegesis is based on personal judgment. But this holds true for any written document including a catechism, a creed, or a magisterium.

The basis of a proper exegesis, however, is not a question of what I think the passage means. The correct exegesis depends on what the original author intended by his words. Sola scriptura, properly understood, teaches us that if a catechism, creed, or magisterium contradicts the Holy Scriptures, the Holy Scriptures take precedence. To put it another way, the Holy Scriptures are the only reliable source of truth concerning the will of God. Any source that contradicts the scripture must be rejected. Any word, coming from a preacher, a teacher or a pope must be rejected if it contradicts the scriptures.

Anyone who tells you that YOU can't use your own judgment to attain a proper exegesis is wrong. Anyone who teaches about an inspired interpretation is wrong. God gifted us with the printing press so that all peoples everywhere would have access to his holy word. If everyone in church owns a Bible, reads it on a daily basis, studies the Bible faithfully, this will guard the church against ravenous wolves who seek to devour you.

I adamantly don't believe every word somebody tells me -- wether that person be Catholic or Protestant. And both have regularly told me just to believe XYZ because they tell me to / it's their tradition, and not ask God myself.

And my objection to Sola Scriptura is that we need to always remember of include God Himself in our studies, not just scripture.

 

[theefaith]

How do you know that the Catholic church is THE church? How do you know that the Bishop of Rome is an actual Bishop?

matt 16:18 Peter and His valid successors
there can only be one true church
Jn 10:16

 

[theefaith]

Notice that Paul is speaking in the past tense here. He is talking about doctrines that existed as of the time of his writing. He is NOT suggesting that we believe and obey other traditions that might come after that.

Thee faith eph 4:5 was delivered completely to the apostles Jude 1:3 there is no new public revelation!
Matt 28:19 obey

 

[theefaith]

It is true that one's exegesis is based on personal judgment. But this holds true for any written document including a catechism, a creed, or a magisterium.

The basis of a proper exegesis, however, is not a question of what I think the passage means. The correct exegesis depends on what the original author intended by his words. Sola scriptura, properly understood, teaches us that if a catechism, creed, or magisterium contradicts the Holy Scriptures, the Holy Scriptures take precedence. To put it another way, the Holy Scriptures are the only reliable source of truth concerning the will of God. Any source that contradicts the scripture must be rejected. Any word, coming from a preacher, a teacher or a pope must be rejected if it contradicts the scriptures.

Anyone who tells you that YOU can't use your own judgment to attain a proper exegesis is wrong. Anyone who teaches about an inspired interpretation is wrong. God gifted us with the printing press so that all peoples everywhere would have access to his holy word. If everyone in church owns a Bible, reads it on a daily basis, studies the Bible faithfully, this will guard the church against ravenous wolves who seek to devour you.

The word of God is not limited to the Bible alone!

How do you know from the Bible alone exactly what is and what is not the Bible?

The church and the apostles with power and authority were founded before the New Testament, and wrote the New Testament and cannonized the Bible!

The rule of faith is not the Bible or the Bible alone, but God, and His divine revelation!

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (It does not say every verse of the Bible alone)

Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handy work.

Gen God called Abraham

Matt 16:16-17 Peter received divine revelation from the Father.

Lk 3:2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

(This is divine revelation and opposes the doctrine of the Bible alone, the heavens are not the Bible or Bible alone, the word of God did not come to Abraham, Peter, John etc. by the Bible or Bible alone)

—————-
The church is the pillar and ground of truth! 1 Tim 3:15

We must be taught!

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

matt 16:18 Peter and His valid successors
there can only be one true church
Jn 10:16

Many people of diverse denominations claim to be Peter’s successor.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Roman Catholic Church includes many books that I do not accept as being in the Bible, and the vast majority of printed Bibles don't have those books either!

Very few people accept the books that the Church of Rome adds as "Scripture" except those of the Roman Cult.

WHY don't you accept those 7 Books as inspired Scripture?
WHO told you that they weren't inspired?

I've never met the Protestant who was able to give an historically-accurate answer to this question.

STILL waiting for an answer . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

How would you know?
The Roman Empire destroyed anything that went against their belief system, there would be no form of document available which would co trading them

Ay, ay, ay - another historically-warped response.

I'll ask YOU the same question I asked your fellow anti-Catholic, @Candidus:
WHY don't you accept those 7 Books as inspired Scripture?
WHO told you that they weren't inspired?

I've never met the Protestant who was able to give an historically-accurate answer to this question.
BUT, I'll wait here for your answer . . .

STILL waiting for an answer . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Many people of diverse denominations claim to be Peter’s successor.

And NONE of them have the history or the documentation to be able to make this claim - except for the Catholic Church.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

ye may know does not mean ye will know
And this is the confidence that we have in him means we have to cooperate with God's grace that He gave us in the first place. Calvinism cannot fathom this truth. One cannot have confidence in Him without cooperating with God's grace. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. The first half of the verse describes ACTION on our part, the second part of the verse, according to his will, that all men respond to His grace. It does not mean that God will hear us on the condition that He thought of it in the first place. That's Islam, not Christianity.
God's will is that all men may be saved.

A) God gives grace
B) we respond with confidence

God does not give grace because we first have confidence. That's works righteousness.

This pattern is automatic when Christians of any flavor do good works. Faith, Hope and Charity are inseparable cardinal virtues in order for faith alone to work. We don't make false dichotomies between faith and works (charity, faith in action). It gets me when I hear complaints from Christians who actually do the very thing they complain about.

You confuse faith and works, true faith does work. And you take an English word and forget to look at where it comes from!

It is the word "eido" --to see. perceive or understand and it is thus:
Speech: Verb

Tense: Perfect

Voice: Active

Mood: Subjunctive

Person: 2nd Person

Number: Plural


When you see this- you know you can never lose your salvation!

Now if you want to talk about losing the assurance or conviction of your salvation- that is a totally different subject than the fact you cannot lose your salvation!

 

[CadyandZoe]

matt 16:18 Peter and His valid successors
there can only be one true church
Jn 10:16

The Bible never says that Peter would have successors. But putting that aside, even if it did, how do you know that the Catholic church is the one true church. I don't think it is.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I adamantly don't believe every word somebody tells me -- wether that person be Catholic or Protestant. And both have regularly told me just to believe XYZ because they tell me to / it's their tradition, and not ask God myself.

And my objection to Sola Scriptura is that we need to always remember of include God Himself in our studies, not just scripture.

I like your approach.

 

[Illuminator]

You confuse faith and works, true faith does work. And you take an English word and forget to look at where it comes from!

It is the word "eido" --to see. perceive or understand and it is thus:
Speech: Verb

Tense: Perfect

Voice: Active

Mood: Subjunctive

Person: 2nd Person

Number: Plural

When you see this- you know you can never lose your salvation!

Now if you want to talk about losing the assurance or conviction of your salvation- that is a totally different subject than the fact you cannot lose your salvation!

You need to read the Bible with a microscope AND a telescope. Near sighted word games, too much dependence on concordances and lexicons misses the spirit of the letter; it's another form of works righteousness. You confuse predestination to grace with predestination to glory, explained in detail in post #212 that you ran from. I left a link there because I didn't want to flood the thread with pages and pages of scriptural evidence that you ignore!

 

[CadyandZoe]

The word of God is not limited to the Bible alone!

The Bible is the only reliable source of knowledge about the will of God for mankind.

How do you know from the Bible alone exactly what is and what is not the Bible?

How do you know your mother? She told you right? Do you trust her? I trust the Bible.

The church and the apostles with power and authority were founded before the New Testament, and wrote the New Testament and cannonized the Bible!

Of course. Now you are making sense.

The rule of faith is not the Bible or the Bible alone, but God, and His divine revelation!

The Bible alone is the only reliable source for divine revelation.

The church is the pillar and ground of truth!

Negative. The church learns from the Bible. The church doesn't author the Bible. Anyone who tells you that the church has authority is in error. The only authority is Jesus Christ himself. There is no other.