Bible alone?

[Marymog]

A person's butt warming a pew doesn't make them a Christian.
A person's going through the motions of a ritual doesn't make them a Christian.
A person's reciting some words or reading some book doesn't make them a Christian.

All of the above is 100% hallow until that person has a changed heart.

They must have faith themselves, celebrate Him from their very core, follow Him as He commands, etc.

I thoroughly studied Catholicism for many years, and know it to be a beautiful faith that can indeed facilitate that saving relationship with Christ. I have known many wonderful Catholic Christians over the years with vibrant testimonies. On this forum, there are indeed some with those vibrant testimonies, and some other that...really frustrate me.

Hi Jane,

You are right. Doing each one of those (warming a pew, rituals, reciting words) individually does not make one a Christian. Putting them all together is PART of being a Christian.

The NT Christians went to Church. That is what most of the NT is about; letters written to individual churches with instructions, advise, doctrine etc. so that one will know how they ought to conduct themselves in God's household (1 Timothy 3:15). In general one has to be at a Church (gathering of Christians) to be a Christian sooooo a "butt warming a pew" is a good first start!

The NT Christians practiced rituals and we carry on those rituals still today, 2,000 years later (Acts 2:42, 1 Corinthians 10:16, 1 Corinthians 11:24-29, Matthew 28:19, John 20:23, James 5:14). Soooo participating in a ritual is part of being a Christian.

I am not sure what you mean by "reciting some words" but praying is reciting words and all Christians pray. It is commanded of us to pray for each other and probably the best ritual one can participate in.

Maybe you are just anti-denominational?

Thank you for at least recognizing there are some Catholics on here with vibrant testimony instead of lumping all of us into one bad egg basket. I appreciate that.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

I rest my case. You are not open for discussion

you have not identified anything only your view. And you are not open to discussion so it is a mute point.
It’s between you and God now

Ummmm.....I asked you a question. Questions spur discussions soooooo obviously I am open for discussion.

You didn't answer that question which, in effect, shuts down the discussion. Soooo who is really shutting down this discussion???

Keeping it real...Mary

 

[Eternally Grateful]

None of the churches today have the truth in it's fullness....but His Word promises us that there will be unity of faith in His Church againl.

Amen, what a glorious day that will be

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Ummmm.....I asked you a question. Questions spur discussions soooooo obviously I am open for discussion.

You didn't answer that question which, in effect, shuts down the discussion. Soooo who is really shutting down this discussion???

Keeping it real...Mary

Discussion has to be two way,

no matter what I answer, if it does not agree with your church you will say it is my private interpretation

stop trying to turn it on me, your the one who stopped discussion when you claim your church is perfect and has 100% truth

good day

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Discussion has to be two way,

no matter what I answer, if it does not agree with your church you will say it is my private interpretation

stop trying to turn it on me, your the one who stopped discussion when you claim your church is perfect and has 100% truth

good day

That is how I feel with this thread as well, and am done being ignored.

 

[Marymog]

None of the churches today have the truth in it's fullness.....

Hello Heart2Soul,

I have heard that same statement made by many Protestants. Your statement suggest that you know which doctrine each individual church teaches are false doctrines. The only way you could know what a false doctrine is by knowing the truth or what a true doctrine is. What baffles me is how do YOU know if "none of the churches today have the truth in it's fullness" unless you know the truth?

I have never received a logical answer to my inquiry. Maybe you can clear that up for me?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Discussion has to be two way,

no matter what I answer, if it does not agree with your church you will say it is my private interpretation

stop trying to turn it on me, your the one who stopped discussion when you claim your church is perfect and has 100% truth

good day

Ummmmm.......Scripture says that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. I professed to you that I have found the Church that Scripture is speaking of and then I asked you what church you believe is the pillar and foundation of truth....you didn't answer.... and I am the one who stopped the discussion????? Hmmmmm.......

Ummmmm.....You are the one who said you don't follow any man soooooo if you do give me an interpretation from Scripture wouldn't it be your own private interpretation???? Soooooo if I accuse you of it being your own private interpretation then I wouldn't be wrong...... now would I?

Thank you for your time.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Ummmmm.......Scripture says that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. I professed to you that I have found the Church that Scripture is speaking of and then I asked you what church you believe is the pillar and foundation of truth....you didn't answer.... and I am the one who stopped the discussion????? Hmmmmm.......

Ummmmm.....You are the one who said you don't follow any man soooooo if you do give me an interpretation from Scripture wouldn't it be your own private interpretation???? Soooooo if I accuse you of it being your own private interpretation then I wouldn't be wrong...... now would I?

Thank you for your time.

Same old song and dance

you think you found it. Yet I proved it was not

the church is. The church is not an organization it is a body. But you will
Never see it because again you think your church is 100% right

I am done. Go play your own game

 

[Heart2Soul]

Hello Heart2Soul,

I have heard that same statement made by many Protestants. Your statement suggest that you know which doctrine each individual church teaches are false doctrines. The only way you could know what a false doctrine is by knowing the truth or what a true doctrine is. What baffles me is how do YOU know if "none of the churches today have the truth in it's fullness" unless you know the truth?

I have never received a logical answer to my inquiry. Maybe you can clear that up for me?

Mary

Well Mary for one....I prayed and asked God why there were so many different denominations....He said it comes from man's pride to argue his interpretation as being correct over the other's interpretation as being correct.
And here is the Truth in scripture....
Ephesians 4:12-16
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


1 Corinthians 13:9-12
King James Version

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

My hope and expectation is that His Church will be ONE CHURCH made up of saints who are of one mind and one accord and are unified in their wisdom, knowledge and understanding of His Word.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Jn 8:32 and Jn 16:13 the church founded by Christ on a Peter and the apostles and their successors have the fullness of truth!
Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

2 Tim 4:3 applies to all your church maybe but not the one true church, Lk 10:16 if the church teaches error then Christ teaches error and God cannot teach error!

That is the Church that God is going to Restore! As it was on the day of Pentecost

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well Mary for one....I prayed and asked God why there were so many different denominations....He said it comes from man's pride to argue his interpretation as being correct over the other's interpretation as being correct.
And here is the Truth in scripture....
Ephesians 4:12-16
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


1 Corinthians 13:9-12
King James Version

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

My hope and expectation is that His Church will be ONE CHURCH made up of saints who are of one mind and one accord and are unified in their wisdom, knowledge and understanding of His Word.

Amen, why is it so hard?

 

[Marymog]

Same old song and dance

you think you found it. Yet I proved it was not

the church is. The church is not an organization it is a body. But you will
Never see it because again you think your church is 100% right

I am done. Go play your own game

Hi EG,

Ok....sooo your belief that The Church is a body. I do not understand what that means. I assume you mean that The Church is all Christians?

Thank you for your patience.

 

[amadeus]

Hi EG,

Ok....sooo your belief that The Church is a body. I do not understand what that means. I assume you mean that The Church is all Christians?

Thank you for your patience.

Not to intrude especially but hopefully to help with a verse that says that body is the church:

"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence" Col 1:18

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
For the body is not one member, but many." I Cor 12:12-14

 

[Marymog]

Well Mary for one....I prayed and asked God why there were so many different denominations....He said it comes from man's pride to argue his interpretation as being correct over the other's interpretation as being correct.
And here is the Truth in scripture....
Ephesians 4:12-16
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


1 Corinthians 13:9-12
King James Version

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

My hope and expectation is that His Church will be ONE CHURCH made up of saints who are of one mind and one accord and are unified in their wisdom, knowledge and understanding of His Word.

Thank you for your heartfelt response. I appreciate it and I appreciate the work you do as a staff member.

So I don't really see an answer to my question: How do YOU know if "none of the churches today have the truth in it's fullness" unless you know the truth?

I also hope that His Church will be ONE CHURCH. But how do we get there unless we all agree on what the Truth is?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Not to intrude especially but hopefully to help with a verse that says that body is the church:

"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence" Col 1:18

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
For the body is not one member, but many." I Cor 12:12-14

Thank you sir. I do not feel you are intruding.

We are all part of the church (body of Christ) but we individually are not The Church spoken of in 1 Timothy 3:15 and Matthew 18:17. For you see The Church speaks with one voice, has sound (not false) doctrine and we all agree with one another in what we say and there are no divisions among us and we are perfectly united in mind and thought. That is what makes a universal Church!!!

Mary

 

[amadeus]

Thank you sir. I do not feel you are intruding.

We are all part of the church (body of Christ) but we individually are not The Church spoken of in 1 Timothy 3:15 and Matthew 18:17. For you see The Church speaks with one voice, has sound (not false) doctrine and we all agree with one another in what we say and there are no divisions among us and we are perfectly united in mind and thought. That is what makes a universal Church!!!

Mary

I actually agree with your words although it is likely that our underlying understanding differs. I look to these verses in support of our need for helpers provided to us by God:

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." Eph 4:11-16

Without the five ministries mentioned, how can we move beyond childhood into mature perfected fitted part of the Body of Christ? A man can serve God all alone for times or for a time, but can he all alone finish his course in the Lord as a part of the Church connected to all the other parts and along with all of the other parts subject to the Head, which is Jesus?

Jonah ran away as did Elijah, but God let them both know where they were in error. If we are sincerely and submitted to Him, will He not bring us to where He knows that we should be at the end of our course? Consider where Apostle Paul was when he approached the end of his course:

"For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:" II Tim 4:6-7

 

[BreadOfLife]

If they have God-given authority as you so wrongly suggest, why did they hold a council? The Council at Jerusalem contradicts your point.
The Apostles held council, not to decide doctrine but to check each other's understanding of Jesus' teaching.

Listen to Paul.

Galatians 2:1-2
Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also. It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain.

Paul's submitted his gospel to the others. In this way, Paul demonstrates that it is The Gospel message not Paul himself, that carries the authority.

And again,

Galatians 2:11-14
But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. 13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

If Cephas had God-given authority, Paul would never question Peter, giving him his due respect. But Cephas doesn't have God-given authority in himself, and neither does Paul. This is why Paul argues from the Gospel message itself. Paul appeals to the message, not any kind of authority he might have.

You take Jesus out of context. What is the subject matter at hand? Let me remind you. Jesus is sending out 70 of his disciples to preach in the various cities he plans to visit. They will enter a city and stay in a particular household. They will preach that the kingdom of God is at hand, and other information which Jesus has taught them. This is the reason why Jesus says "whoever listens to you listens to me." These men are bringing the gospel message and they are teaching the people the gospel message accompanied by miracles. The same can be said of the scriptures. Whoever listens to the scriptures listens to Jesus. Whoever rejects the scriptures rejects Jesus.

Jesus is NOT saying, "You are free to speak on your own behalf and make up any kind of doctrine you wish."

WRONG on BOTH counts.

First of all, at the Council of Jerusalem - the Apostles made a decision. They made a decision BASED on Scripture and the teachings of Christ - but the decision was THEIRS.
Don't forget their conclusions in the letter they wrote:
Acts 14:24-28
WE have heard that some went out from us WITHOUT OUR AUTHORIZATION and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So WE ALL AGREED to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul—men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore WE are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to THE HOLY SPIRIT AND TO US not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements;

THAT'S Authority . . .

As for Peter and Paul - Peter was out of line and needed to be rebuked. The Pope is not beyond rebuke if he behaves badly.
This was NOT a matter of doctrine - but one of behavior - and Paul was well within his rights to rebuke him.

St. Catherine of Siena rebuked Pope Gregory XI and told him that he should return to Rome and leave Avignon.
Didn't make him ANY LESS a Pope . . .

 

[Heart2Soul]

Thank you for your heartfelt response. I appreciate it and I appreciate the work you do as a staff member.

So I don't really see an answer to my question: How do YOU know if "none of the churches today have the truth in it's fullness" unless you know the truth?

I also hope that His Church will be ONE CHURCH. But how do we get there unless we all agree on what the Truth is?

Mary

He will bring us together on His Truth
But He hasn't revealed it all to us yet....the Hidden Wisdom and the Mysteries of God that are kept hidden until the appointed time....therefore what we know at this point is what He wants us to know.
But an example of what I am saying is this...
Baptist: Their main focus is on salvation and water baptism.....they pretty much avoid the teaching on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit
Catholics: They focus on Communion, Confession, Charity and achieving sainthood...
Assemblies of God: main focus is Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Gifts

So there are 3 examples....
Now all 3 teach from the same Bible.....but not all 3 teach the same message in the Bible.

Does that make more sense?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

He will bring us together on His Truth
But He hasn't revealed it all to us yet....the Hidden Wisdom and the Mysteries of God that are kept hidden until the appointed time....therefore what we know at this point is what He wants us to know.
But an example of what I am saying is this...
Baptist: Their main focus is on salvation and water baptism.....they pretty much avoid the teaching on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit
Catholics: They focus on Communion, Confession, Charity and achieving sainthood...
Assemblies of God: main focus is Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Gifts

So there are 3 examples....
Now all 3 teach from the same Bible.....but not all 3 teach the same message in the Bible.

Does that make more sense?

Good post, but as a lifelong baptist Until I left that church, water baptism was never one of their main focuses,

I think one of the major issues we have is we do not really know everything the other does. So we stereotype them.
In doing so, we are hard of hearing because we think we already know

not saying all of us, but in my decade of being involved in one form or another in christian chat, it has been what I have experienced,

 

[Heart2Soul]

Good post, but as a lifelong baptist Until I left that church, water baptism was never one of their main focuses,

I think one of the major issues we have is we do not really know everything the other does. So we stereotype them.
In doing so, we are hard of hearing because we think we already know

not saying all of us, but in my decade of being involved in one form or another in christian chat, it has been what I have experienced,

it may have changed...I first got saved in the Baptist Church and they pressured me to get water baptized for over a year....I was only 7 when I got saved...but at 8 I finally got water baptized.