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theefaith

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@theefaith I am quoting myself because something just became known to me this morning... I realize that I have mistaken you with another poster who goes by a name close to yours... and SO... I am apologizing for my statement regarding having disabilities.

The first mistake I made was putting my nose in someone else's business in the first place. Anyways... lesson learned.

with the Christian virtue and of charity it’s all good
 

David in NJ

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What do you think "the keys of the Kingdom of heaven" refer to in Matthew 16:19? These keys allowed the apostles a special power that whatever they would bind on earth, would be bound in heaven and whatever they loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven.

The interpretation of this power: The power was the same power that Jesus held, to heal the sick, to raise the dead, to preach the truthfulness of the gospel, to forgive sins (loosing a man of his sins on earth would be recognized in heaven and God would loose this mans sins also).

So there is more to it than having the Holy Spirit. You have to have the Holy Spirit, but the church officers needed the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" to grow the church and administer and manage this growth.

So what do you think the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" were?

Was away on trip - just returned - will answer you in a day or two - thank you
 

David in NJ

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I have also asked this many times.
Here's what I've come up with...

In the beginning there was only the universal catholic church. Then it lost it's way and Luther began a new way, which was more like the original church. But with no centralized administration, different theologians soon began to arrive at different understandings of scripture. Different denominations began to flourish according to different beliefs...and here we are.

Was away on trip - just returned - will answer you in a day or two - thank you
 
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David in NJ

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Was away on trip - just returned - will answer you in a day or two - thank you

i do not believe that the 'keys to the Kingdom' were 'special powers' given to the Apostles.

evidence is in the phrase itself: keys to the Kingdom
Our Lord Jesus is the KEY that Opened for us entry to HIS Kingdom.
The term 'keys' in times past were(and still is) associated with Knowledge of the Spirit Realm. Pharoahs Magi had some of this knowledge and they served Pharoah with it. Their knowledge came from the spirit realm of the fallen angels who guided them.

The Apostles Knowledge was of HIM, who from Eternity, came to earth as a man to die for our sins. Becuase HE committed no sin, Death could not hold HIM and HE ascended back to the Father for our Benefit = the keys to the Kingdom.

It is all about who JESUS is and our submission to HIM.

Here is a main point on the 'Keys to the Kingdom' :
Then Peter said,
#1. Silver and gold have I none;
#2. but such as I have give I thee:
#3. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Any - ANY church, pastor or preacher who is making lots of money from the Gospel is not a true apostle, prophet, pastor, evangelist or teacher.

The more wealth a church or preacher has accumulated = the more they will give an account for their greed and misuse of the Gospel.
 
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David in NJ

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I have also asked this many times.
Here's what I've come up with...

In the beginning there was only the universal catholic church. Then it lost it's way and Luther began a new way, which was more like the original church. But with no centralized administration, different theologians soon began to arrive at different understandings of scripture. Different denominations began to flourish according to different beliefs...and here we are.

The One Universal Church was started by God in the Garden with Adam and Eve - then the Serpent came into His Church and began the dis-information campaign, which is raging on even more so today.

Our Heavenly Father knew beforehand this and always had the Plan of Redemption in His Bosom.

The catholic church which you refer to, in which i was born and raised in, is not His Universal Church.
 

Marymog

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i do not believe that the 'keys to the Kingdom' were 'special powers' given to the Apostles.

evidence is in the phrase itself: keys to the Kingdom
Our Lord Jesus is the KEY that Opened for us entry to HIS Kingdom.
The term 'keys' in times past were(and still is) associated with Knowledge of the Spirit Realm. Pharoahs Magi had some of this knowledge and they served Pharoah with it. Their knowledge came from the spirit realm of the fallen angels who guided them.

The Apostles Knowledge was of HIM, who from Eternity, came to earth as a man to die for our sins. Becuase HE committed no sin, Death could not hold HIM and HE ascended back to the Father for our Benefit = the keys to the Kingdom.

It is all about who JESUS is and our submission to HIM.

Here is a main point on the 'Keys to the Kingdom' :
Then Peter said,
#1. Silver and gold have I none;
#2. but such as I have give I thee:
#3. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Any - ANY church, pastor or preacher who is making lots of money from the Gospel is not a true apostle, prophet, pastor, evangelist or teacher.

The more wealth a church or preacher has accumulated = the more they will give an account for their greed and misuse of the Gospel.
Hey David,

Why don't you believe that the 'keys to the Kingdom' were 'special powers' given to the Apostles? Right after He says he is giving them the keys he indicates that those keys have binding and loosening powers. Soooooo that sounds like a pretty dang "special power" to me. :rolleyes:

Here is a little biblical history for you concerning the keys. At the time Jesus said that the Apostles would have know exactly what he was referring to since they knew the what we now call the OT like some Christians know the NT today.

The king is the head of the kingdom, the highest authority for the state. Underneath the king were various offices of ministry. For example, the Kingdom of David’s cabinet ministers included the head of the army, chief of the commissaries, superintendent of the labor force, etc. (see 1 Kings 4:1-6). Over these offices was the office of prime minister (sometimes call the master of the palace or the major domo). The prime minister’s job was to oversee the other ministers and to look after the day-to-day operation of the kingdom. A king could not be bothered with micromanaging the kingdom’s daily affairs, his concern was the macromanagment of the kingdom, such as long and short term planning, treatises and alliances, etc. The micromanagement of the kingdom was given to the prime minister, whose authority was second only to the king.

We catch a glimpse of this office in the Isaiah 22 when a wicked prime minister, Shebna, was removed and replaced more worthy servant named Eliakim. God says to Shebna through Isaiah:“On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim, son of Hilkiah; I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open. ”Among the signs of the prime minister’s office (a robe, a sash, the title “father”) was the “key of the House of David,” that is to say the keys of the kingdom. The prime minister wore this large key on his shoulder and used it to open and shut the gates of the kingdom.

Therefore, when Christ promised Simon Peter the “keys of the Kingdom,” the Apostles, knowing what the keys meant in the OT, must have realized two things by this action: First, they must have realized that by doing this Christ was acting as the son of David, the King of Messiah king, whose kingdom extends to both heaven and earth. Second, Jesus promised to install Simon Peter as the prime minister of this kingdom. His job, therefore, would be to oversee the other ministers in the kingdom (i.e., the Apostles) in their ministry. And just as the office of prime minister in the Davidic kingdom didn’t end when someone died or was removed from office, neither did Peter’s office end when Peter died. Rather, the office continued and the authority of the keys continues through St. Peter’s successors who now exercise the power of the keys.

I agree with your statement
that ANY church, pastor or preacher who is making lots of money from the Gospel is not a true apostle, prophet, pastor, evangelist or teacher.

Bible Study Mary
 

theefaith

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Had special power when it was still in the hands of the successors of Moses according to Jesus Christ “obedience was required”

now taken from them matt 23:43 given to the church in the person of peter matt 16:18 and the apostles Matt 18:18
Now they too must be obeyed

successors of Moses!

Matt 23 why does Jesus say to obey the successors of Moses?

The successors of Moses sit in the chair of Moses having the authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Matt 23 and Jesus commanded them to be obeyed! Then the kingdom was taken from them matt 21:43 and given to Peter, Matt 16:18 the apostles, Matt 18:18 and their successors with the authority of the keys and the power to bind and lose!

Jesus said to obey the authority of the successors of Moses mt 23 authority of the keys and power to bind and loose and this power and authority was taken from them matt and given by Christ to Peter, the apostles and their successors, mt 16:18 18:18 this same authority and power must be obeyed!

mt 28:18-20 all authority is given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors requiring obedience, rom 1:5 obedience to the faith!
And Jesus say to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: behold I am with you even until the end of the world!!!
So the apostles have to remain until the end! Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and Priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Reign with kingdom authority (keys) power (bind loose) matt 16:18
The successors of Peter and the apostles have a valid jurisdictional authority (keys) and power (bind and loose) by Jesus Christ!

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
 

farouk

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I have also asked this many times.
Here's what I've come up with...

In the beginning there was only the universal catholic church. Then it lost it's way and Luther began a new way, which was more like the original church. But with no centralized administration, different theologians soon began to arrive at different understandings of scripture. Different denominations began to flourish according to different beliefs...and here we are.
It's interesting that with the local church activities mentioned in Acts 2.42 I don't see the Roman Catholic Church at all...
 
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theefaith

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It's interesting that with the local church activities mentioned in Acts 2.42 I don't see the Roman Catholic Church at all...

Jn 10/16 one church
Jn 1:45 jn 3:16 universal or catholic or world

“then it lost its way”??????????????
Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13 matt 16:18-19

THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

theefaith

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Major covenants!

God initiated each covenant and the mediator always remains on earth mediating the covenant except for Christ who made Peter His personal representative and vicar! (Matt 16:18)

Adam
(Marriage covenant)

Noah
(Family covenant)

Abraham
(Tribal covenant)

Moses:
(National covenant)

Jesus Christ:
(Universal covenant)

New and eternal covenant founded by Jesus Christ! Matt 16:18

Universal (Catholic)
World universal

Lk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. ( catholic universal)

Lk 2:31 prepared before the face of all (catholic) people

Jn 1:29 lamb of God who takes way the sins of the world

Jn 3:16 for God so loved the world

1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Lk 2: 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. (All people universal)

1 Tim 2:5 one mediator

Jn 10:16 One new covenant church

Kingdom

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

the holy Catholic Church

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
 

Desire Of All Nations

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Had special power when it was still in the hands of the successors of Moses according to Jesus Christ “obedience was required”

now taken from them matt 23:43 given to the church in the person of peter matt 16:18 and the apostles Matt 18:18
Now they too must be obeyed

successors of Moses!

Matt 23 why does Jesus say to obey the successors of Moses?

The successors of Moses sit in the chair of Moses having the authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Matt 23 and Jesus commanded them to be obeyed! Then the kingdom was taken from them matt 21:43 and given to Peter, Matt 16:18 the apostles, Matt 18:18 and their successors with the authority of the keys and the power to bind and lose!

Jesus said to obey the authority of the successors of Moses mt 23 authority of the keys and power to bind and loose and this power and authority was taken from them matt and given by Christ to Peter, the apostles and their successors, mt 16:18 18:18 this same authority and power must be obeyed!

mt 28:18-20 all authority is given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors requiring obedience, rom 1:5 obedience to the faith!
And Jesus say to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: behold I am with you even until the end of the world!!!
So the apostles have to remain until the end! Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and Priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Reign with kingdom authority (keys) power (bind loose) matt 16:18
The successors of Peter and the apostles have a valid jurisdictional authority (keys) and power (bind and loose) by Jesus Christ!

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
The obvious problem with your theology is that Christ never called the scribes and Pharisees Moses' successors. He said they sat in Moses' seat, which makes a huge difference in the message He was conveying.It's also historically impossible to say the scribes and Pharisees' were Moses' successors when

1. the Bible shows Joshua being the only man that Moses gave his authority to
2. the religious leaders didn't believe or practice the things Moses wrote
3. the scribes and Pharisees didn't assume religious authority over the Jews until about 2 or 3 generations after Ezra and Nehemiah's death
 
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theefaith

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The obvious problem with your theology is that Christ never called the scribes and Pharisees Moses' successors. He said they sat in Moses' seat, which makes a huge difference in the message He was conveying.It's also historically impossible to say the scribes and Pharisees' were Moses' successors when

1. the Bible shows Joshua being the only man that Moses gave his authority to
2. the religious leaders didn't believe or practice the things Moses wrote
3. the scribes and Pharisees didn't assume religious authority over the Jews until about 2 or 3 generations after Ezra and Nehemiah's death

Really? Are you blind?

matt 23:1-2


Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

In Moses seat!

having the authority of Moses!

to open and close (keys)
Bind and loose

taken from them matt 21:43
Given to the church in the person of peter matt 16:18 and apostles Matt 18:18 jn 20:21-23

those who would bear fruit (the church abiding in Christ) jn 15:1
Not apart from Christ jn 15:5

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Seat: also called chair or cathedral
 

theefaith

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Who ever they are the important point is that they have the authority of the key and the power to bind and loose
And Christ says they must be obeyed
 

amadeus

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...
And Christ says they must be obeyed
Does it actually say this scripture, especially in the NT?
Things did change when Jesus arose from the and when the Holy Ghost was poured out as per Acts 2. In the OT leaders such as Moses and Joshua were given authority by God which frequently people disregarded which effectively meant they disregarded God.

That was then. Now there are ministers given to men by God, but to minister, not to command. To minister means to serve. Ephesians 4 explains their purpose to help people become like God wants them to be. But all people now have direct access to God Himself. Why do you insist on putting people back under the rules of men like the children of Israel following Moses? Now we have One greater than Moses who never stumbles and smites when he is supposed to speak.

People do choose to subject themselves to fallible men, but that is their choice. That is on them. From my early Catholicism through several layers of non-Catholic groups I have tried to subject myself to fallible men but it has never worked. Submitting myself directly to God through His Son does work.
 

theefaith

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Does it actually say this scripture, especially in the NT?
Things did change when Jesus arose from the and when the Holy Ghost was poured out as per Acts 2. In the OT leaders such as Moses and Joshua were given authority by God which frequently people disregarded which effectively meant they disregarded God.

That was then. Now there are ministers given to men by God, but to minister, not to command. To minister means to serve. Ephesians 4 explains their purpose to help people become like God wants them to be. But all people now have direct access to God Himself. Why do you insist on putting people back under the rules of men like the children of Israel following Moses? Now we have One greater than Moses who never stumbles and smites when he is supposed to speak.

People do choose to subject themselves to fallible men, but that is their choice. That is on them. From my early Catholicism through several layers of non-Catholic groups I have tried to subject myself to fallible men but it has never worked. Submitting myself directly to God through His Son does work.

yes in scripture
Matt 23:1
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

You’re right to refuse them is to refuse God as it is his authority they exercised

same as an attack on the authority or the apostles or the church is an attack on Christ acts 9:4
 

amadeus

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yes in scripture
Matt 23:1
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

You’re right to refuse them is to refuse God as it is his authority they exercised

same as an attack on the authority or the apostles or the church is an attack on Christ acts 9:4
In Moses seat there was authority, but what changed after Jesus died and resurrected? What changed when the Holy Ghost was poured to whosoever will in Acts chapter 2?

What changes in us when we have died to the ways of the flesh and have been born from above [born again] into the Way of God?
 
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theefaith

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In Moses seat there was authority, but what changed after Jesus died and resurrected? What changed when the Holy Ghost was poured to whosoever will in Acts chapter 2?

What changes in us when we have died to the ways of the flesh and have been born from above [born again] into the Way of God?

matt 21:43 matt 16:18 18:18
 

amadeus

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matt 21:43 matt 16:18 18:18
You did not answer my questions. The verses you indicate for me do not answer my questions. If you cannot answer them directly you may fall back on you living by faith.

Everybody does not have to know all of the answers, but when you insist that someone else is wrong, something more specific would be nice. You have given not one reason why I should cast aside what I believe and embrace what you believe.
 

theefaith

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You did not answer my questions. The verses you indicate for me do not answer my questions. If you cannot answer them directly you may fall back on you living by faith.

Everybody does not have to know all of the answers, but when you insist that someone else is wrong, something more specific would be nice. You have given not one reason why I should cast aside what I believe and embrace what you believe.

it changed cos Christ changed it
He took the kingdom from them and gave it to the church
 

amadeus

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it changed cos Christ changed it
He took the kingdom from them and gave it to the church
Thank you for your answer.

I have now have an important appointment to keep with a man about the scripture and the Lord. I hope to return here later today.

Perhaps in the interim you will explain when and how that kingdom transfer was accomplished and what effect it would have had on all those who lived their lives in the flesh before Messiah came to planet Earth as a man and paid the price he paid and before the Holy Ghost was poured out on "whosoever will"...