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Bible alone!

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by theefaith, Aug 22, 2021.

  1. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    I have also asked this many times.
    Here's what I've come up with...

    In the beginning there was only the universal catholic church. Then it lost it's way and Luther began a new way, which was more like the original church. But with no centralized administration, different theologians soon began to arrive at different understandings of scripture. Different denominations began to flourish according to different beliefs...and here we are.
     
  2. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    man does forgive sins
    John 20:21-23
     
  3. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Any priest will tell you that it is God that forgives the sin....the priest only confirms that it's forgiven,,,if it's a forgivable sin.
     
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  4. Gregory

    Gregory Active Member

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    It goes back to what you think and know about the "keys of the kingdom of heaven"? Jesus certainly had the keys of the kingdom of heaven and with those keys he was able to heal the sick, raise the dead, preach the true gospel, and forgive sins.

    As Jesus said in Mark 28:9, what is easier, to forgive a man his sins, or to say to a crippled man, stand up and walk. So we know that Peter and the apostles had the power to command crippled men and women to stand up and walk, so we know that they also had the power to forgive sins.

    God gives righteous men the power to forgive sins, but only if they have the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" then and only then when they forgive a man/woman of their sins, God in heaven also forgives that man/woman of their sins. See how that works.

    The men who hold the binding and loosing powers of the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" have the same kind of power that Jesus has. It has to be that way so that the church can grow and be beneficial to all mankind.
     
  5. Gregory

    Gregory Active Member

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    I believe that a true priest has the power to forgive sins. And if he is a true priest, heaven (God) will hear his pleading and be faithful to this righteous man who has the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" and will confirm from heaven that this mans sins are forgiven.

    That is the binding and loosing power of the "keys of the kingdom of heaven", given to Peter and the apostles by Jesus. (Matthew 16:19)
     
  6. Gregory

    Gregory Active Member

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    Very good scripture. Thank you.
     
  7. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    agree
    Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
    Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 mph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15
     
  8. Gregory

    Gregory Active Member

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    Your right, not just any priest has the binding and loosing powers that Jesus and the apostles had. So who today has power and authority to forgive sins?
     
  9. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    the apostles continue till the return of Christ


    What authority does Christ have?
    What power does Christ have?
    What mission / ministry does Christ have?

    Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

    The apostles are Christ’s successors!
    They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

    Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
    Apostolic succession!

    The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

    Hebrews 3:1
    Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

    Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

    Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

    Moral authority:
    (Teaching)
    Necessity of being taught by Christ:
    Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

    Jurisdictional authority:
    (Governing / administering)
    Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

    Spiritual authority:
    (Life of Grace)
    Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments
     
  10. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever read the great faith story of Susana dan ch. 13
     
  11. Gregory

    Gregory Active Member

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    In Matthew 16:19 it says that Jesus gave Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And later on we know that Jesus gave the apostles the power to loose and bind also.

    The apostles were all dead by 115ad, except maybe John. There is no where in the bible that it says that Peter gave to anyone the keys of the kingdom of heaven. I believe that because after the initial 12 and then several other men were called apostles, there has not been another person called "apostle".

    Bishops from the beginning of not having living apostles have fought over who is the leading bishop. If Peter gave the keys to someone, they would be called "apostle", not "bishop". Why after all these years no one calls themselves "apostle", it is because they did not have the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and so they resorted to calling themselves the apostles successors or bishops, but would not presume to call themselves apostles.

    If there have been apostles or their successors, then every church has the same authority and power and any other church with a bishop (apostles successor). So why is there 3,000 different Christian churches if there has been an apostle or an apostles successor? Are you not aware of the corruption that exists in some of the major churches, so corrupt that certainly their bishops are not apostolic successors, right?

    We can discuss if there are apostles or not, but I believe there are no true apostles on the earth today.
     
  12. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    then there is no salvation no teaching the nations no baptism of disciples

    Matt 28:19-20 I am with you (the apostles) until the end
     
  13. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    What authority does Christ have?
    What power does Christ have?
    What mission / ministry does Christ have?

    Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

    The apostles are Christ’s successors!
    They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

    Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
    Apostolic succession!

    The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

    Hebrews 3:1
    Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

    Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

    Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

    Moral authority:
    (Teaching)
    Necessity of being taught by Christ:
    Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

    Jurisdictional authority:
    (Governing / administering)
    Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

    Spiritual authority:
    (Life of Grace)
    Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

    The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4
     
  14. Gregory

    Gregory Active Member

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    You are aware that from the bible only, there are many different ways that churches teach how a person is saved? Which one is the true way, and is everyone else not saved?

    You are aware that there are many churches that teach a different version of the gospel of Jesus Christ? Which one is true and are the rest not being taught the truth?

    You are aware that there are many ways that the churches teach how people are baptized, even teaching that baptism is not necessary? Which one is the true baptism and are all other doing it wrong?

    Which way is the true way? The bible tells us there are multiple ways. I am confused.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021 at 5:21 PM
  15. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    no there is only one church Jn 10:16
    There is only one Lord one faith one baptism eph 4:5 Jude 1:3
    From Christ to the apostles
    Church built on the apostles Matt 16:18 eph 4:5
    HS leads the apostles into all truth Jn 16:13
    The apostles teach the nations and baptize the disciples Matt 28:19-20
    Jn 4:1
     
  16. MatthewG

    MatthewG Well-Known Member

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    Hello you who may be reading this,

    Just felt like talking to you about the usefulness of the bible.

    There is so much that you can learn by using the bible.

    It takes a little while to really get a understanding of scripture in depending how much time and attention you decide to give to scripture a good read. There is nothing wrong with reading scriptures and learning about God, and would encourage you to do so. God is a good, who is near to those who are broken hearted, and have a contrite spirit. God is love. God cares for you, and desires for you to receive peace from God (Romans 5:1;Romans 8:1-2; Romans 6:1-20; Romans 7:1-20). Jesus Himself is our peace according to the bible did you know that (Ephesians 2:14-22)? Through Christ Jesus all have access by the spirit to the Father.

    The bible is such a great resource for valuable and free wisdom and knowledge that comes from the wisdom of God rather than the wisdom of man. ( 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 ).

    May you be lead by the spirit by worshiping God in spirit and truth,
    With Love in Christ,
    Matthew G.
     
  17. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    have read the story of Susana? Dan 13
     
  18. MatthewG

    MatthewG Well-Known Member

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    No, I have not. What is that story about?
     
  19. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    Dan 13:1

    Now there was a man that dwelt in Babylon, and his name was Joakim:

    2 And he took a wife whose name was Susanna, the daughter of Helcias, a very beautiful woman, and one that feared God.

    3 For her parents being just, had instructed their daughter according to the law of Moses.

    4 Now Joakim was very rich, and had an orchard near his house: and the Jews resorted to him, because he was the most honourable of them all.

    5 And there were two of the ancients of the people appointed judges that year, of whom the Lord said: Iniquity came out from Babylon from the ancient judges, that seemed to govern the people.

    6 These men frequented the house of Joakim, and all that had any matters of judgment came to them.

    7 And when the people departed away at noon, Susanna went in, and walked in her husband's orchard.

    8 And the old men saw her going in every day, and walking: and they were inflamed with lust towards her:

    9 And they perverted their own mind and turned away their eyes that they might not look unto heaven, nor remember just judgments.

    10 So they were both wounded with the love of her, yet they did not make known their grief one to the other:

    11 For they were ashamed to declare to one another their lust, being desirous to have to do with her.

    12 And they watched carefully every day to see her. And one said to the other:

    13 Let us now go home, for it is dinner time. So going out they departed one from another.

    14 And turning back again, they came both to the same place: and asking one another the cause, they acknowledged their lust; and then they agreed upon a time, when they might find her alone.

    15 And it fell out, as they watched a fit day, she went in on a time, as yesterday and the day before, with two maids only, and was desirous to wash herself in the orchard: for it was hot weather.

    16 And there was nobody there, but the two old men that had hid themselves and were beholding her.

    17 So she said to the maids: Bring me oil, and washing balls, and shut the doors of the orchard, that I may wash me.

    18 And they did as she bade them: and they shut the doors of the orchard, and went out by a back door to fetch what she had commanded them, and they knew not that the elders were hid within.

    19 Now when the maids were gone forth, the two elders arose, and ran to her, and said:

    20 Behold the doors of the orchard are shut, and nobody seeth us, and we are in love with thee: wherefore consent to us, and lie with us.

    21 But if thou wilt not, we will bear witness against thee, that a young man was with thee, and therefore thou didst send away thy maids from thee.

    22 Susanna sighed, and said: I am straitened on every side: for if I do this thing, it is death to me: and if I do it not, I shall not escape your hands.

    23 But it is better for me to fall into your hands without doing it, than to sin in the sight of the Lord.

    24 With that Susanna cried out with a loud voice: and the elders also cried out against her.

    25 And one of them ran to the door of the orchard, and opened it.

    26 So when the servants of the house heard the cry in the orchard, they rushed in by the back door to see what was the matter.

    27 But after the old men had spoken, the servants were greatly ashamed: for never had there been any such word said of Susanna. And on the next day,

    28 When the people were come to Joakim her husband, the two elders also came full of wicked device against Susanna, to put her to death.

    29 And they said before the people: Send to Susanna daughter of Helcias the wife of Joakim. And presently they sent.

    30 And she came with her parents, and children, and all her kindred.

    31 Now Susanna was exceeding delicate, and beautiful to behold.

    32 But those wicked men commanded that her face should be uncovered, (for she was covered,) that so at least they might be satisfied with her beauty.

    33 Therefore her friends and all her acquaintance wept.

    34 But the two elders rising up in the midst of the people, laid their hands upon her head.

    35 And she weeping looked up to heaven, for her heart had confidence in the Lord.

    36 And the elders said: As we walked in the orchard alone, this woman came in with two maids, and shut the doors of the orchard, and sent away the maids from her.

    37 Then a young man that was there hid came to her, and lay with her.

    38 But we that were in a corner of the orchard, seeing this wickedness, ran up to them, and we saw them lie together.

    39 And him indeed we could not take, because he was stronger than us, and opening the doors he leaped out:

    40 But having taken this woman, we asked who the young man was, but she would not tell us: of this thing we are witnesses.

    41 The multitude believed them as being the elders and the judges of the people, and they condemned her to death.

    42 Then Susanna cried out with a loud voice, and said: O eternal God, who knowest hidden things, who knowest all things before they come to pass,

    43 Thou knowest that they have borne false witness against me: and behold I must die, whereas I have done none of these things, which these men have maliciously forged against me.

    44 And the Lord heard her voice.

    45 And when she was led to be put to death, the Lord raised up the holy spirit of a young boy, whose name was Daniel.

    46 And he cried out with a loud voice I am clear from the blood of this woman.

    47 Then all the people turning themselves towards him, said: What meaneth this word that thou hast spoken?

    48 But he standing in the midst of them, said: Are ye so foolish, ye children of Israel, that without examination or knowledge of the truth, you have condemned a daughter of Israel?

    49 Return to judgment, for they have borne false witness against her.

    50 So all the people turned again in haste, and the old men said to him: Come, and sit thou down among us, and shew it us: seeing God hath given thee the honour of old age.

    51 And Daniel said to the people: Separate these two far from one another, and I will examine them.

    52 So when they were put asunder one from the other, he called one of them, and said to him: O thou that art grown old in evil days, now are thy sins come out, which thou hast committed before:

    53 In judging unjust judgments, oppressing the innocent, and letting the guilty to go free, whereas the Lord saith: The innocent and the just thou shalt not kill.

    54 Now then, if thou sawest her, tell me under what tree thou sawest them conversing together. He said: Under a mastic tree.

    55 And Daniel said: Well hast thou lied against thy own head: for behold the angel of God having received the sentence of him, shall cut thee in two.

    56 And having put him aside, he commanded that the other should come, and he said to him: O thou seed of Chanaan, and not of Juda, beauty hath deceived thee, and lust hath perverted thy heart:

    57 Thus did you do to the daughters of Israel, and they for fear conversed with you: but a daughter of Juda would not abide your wickedness.

    58 Now therefore tell me, under what tree didst thou take them conversing together. And he answered: Under a holm tree.

    59 And Daniel said to him: Well hast thou also lied against thy own head: for the angel of the Lord waiteth with a sword to cut thee in two, and to destroy you.

    60 With that all the assembly cried out with a loud voice, and they blessed God, who saveth them that trust in him.

    61 And they rose up against the two elders, (for Daniel had convicted them of false witness by their own mouth,) and they did to them as they had maliciously dealt against their neighbour,

    62 To fulfill the law of Moses: and they put them to death, and innocent blood was saved in that day.

    63 But Helcias and his wife praised God, for their daughter Susanna, with Joakim her husband, and all her kindred, because there was no dishonesty found in her.

    64 And Daniel became great in the sight of the people from that day, and thenceforward.

    65 And king Astyages was gathered to his fathers, and Cyrus the Persian received his kingdom.
     
  20. Addy

    Addy Well-Known Member

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    @theefaith I am quoting myself because something just became known to me this morning... I realize that I have mistaken you with another poster who goes by a name close to yours... and SO... I am apologizing for my statement regarding having disabilities.

    The first mistake I made was putting my nose in someone else's business in the first place. Anyways... lesson learned.
     
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