Jim B
Well-Known Member
I repeat: I know that your mind is closed on this subject (and many others), so there is no reasoning with you. I mean it!
Bible alone!
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I repeat: I know that your mind is closed on this subject (and many others), so there is no reasoning with you. I mean it!
Jim B
Well-Known Member
don’t bother reading eph 4:5 either
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism
or Mk 16:16 he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.
Jim B
Well-Known Member
Again: I know that your mind is closed on this subject (and many others), so there is no reasoning with you. I mean it!
Anybody can take single verses out of context to argue for any doctrine. That doesn't make it valid.
On another note, one of the biggest mistakes made in Bible translation was the chopping up the text into chapters and verses. While they are useful as reference points they clearly distort the writings. The King James, by chopping up everything into verses, allows for all kinds of out-of-context distortions of what is being said.
Your continual pulling out single verses to prove doctrine is a prime example.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Water baptism was generally done by water immersion like in the Jordan, and not sprinkling.
Therefore: The sprinkling of the clean water is either by the Spirit or by the blood of Christ (or both).
For water is related to the Spirit in John 7:37-39.
And the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:2), whereby Ananias told Saul (Paul) to call upon the name of the Lord so as to wash away his sins (Acts 22:16). Remember, 1 John 5:8 says that the water and blood agree in one together.
You said:
Actually, being born again of water in John 3:5 is in reference to being born again by the incorruptible seed of the Word of God (like Scripture) as mentioned in 1 Peter 1:23-25, and 1 Peter 2:2. Christ gave Himself so that we might be sanctified with the washing of the water of the Word so that He may present to Himself a church that is holy and without blemish (See: Ephesians 5:25-27). Remember the parable of the sower? Luke 8:11 is the Communicated Word of God, and the sower is the Son of Man (according to parable of the weeds - Matthew 13:37). Obviously a person receives the seed of the gospel message of believing 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 in Scripture to be saved whereby they would rejoice. Being born again by the Word means you received the Communicated Word as Holy and authoritative for your life because you have been transformed by listening to it in calling upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, and not by following some man made institution.
You said:
This is referring to Spirit baptism (a changed heart, and life) that every genuine believer receives when they receive Jesus Christ as their Savior (Seeking forgiveness of their sins with Him and believing that Jesus died for their sins, He was buried, and He was risen the third day). It’s a change of heart and the receiving of the Spirit. I know because when I accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as my Savior, it was like a light went on inside me, and I had a love, joy, and peace that I had never known before. I was completely different person than who I was before.
You said:
Peter did not realize or understand Jesus’ words in that John baptized you with water but you shall be baptized with the Spirit.
It took time for the Jewish apostles to understand that Spirit baptism replaced John’s water baptism.
Don’t believe me? I would encourage you to slowly and carefully read Acts of the Apostles 19:1-6, and then read Acts of the Apostles 18:24-26.
Remember, Paul said he came not to baptize but to preach the gospel. So if baptism was for salvation, then Paul would be saying… I came not to save (baptize) but to preach the gospel (See: 1 Corinthians 1:17).
Hebrews 9:10 says:
“Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.”
The word “washings” in this verse is baptismos in the Greek. So this verse is saying that baptisms was imposed on them until the time of reformation. Don’t believe me? Look up the Greek word here at BlueLetterBible.
Baptismos (washings) - Strong’s G909 - BlueLetterBible
You said:
Philip like Peter was not aware yet of the change in God’s program in that Spirit baptism replaced John’s water baptism yet. However, we know Paul, Aquila, and Priscilla were aware of this later change in God’s program, though.
You said:
The word “and” creates a thought in meaning here in Acts of the Apostles 22:16. Calling upon the name of the Lord is what washes away one’s sins, and not water baptism. The word “and” does not include baptism in one’s sins being washed away. The word “and” starts a new thought. Water baptism even according to John’s water baptism did not save in the sense of putting away the filth of the flesh (i.e. sin - See 2 Corinthians 7:1, or cleanse in an outward ritualistic way) but it was merely done as answer to having an already clean conscience before God in calling upon the name of the Lord - which is only made truly effective by the resurrection of Jesus Christ (See: 1 Peter 3:21). In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter was giving his spiritual understanding on John’s water baptism before it was no longer applicable when Christ died upon the cross. It took time for Peter to learn that water baptism was no longer required. Peter is saying that water baptism does not even save in putting away sin but it saves one to giving an answer that they already have a clean conscience. A believer who has a clean conscience has already admitted prior that they sinned against God in their past old life to the Lord Jesus Christ (in calling upon the name of the Lord for salvation by way of prayer). So before the cross: John’s water baptism (that was temporary) was just a later pledge, promise, or answer in that you already washed away your conscience (your old life of sin) after having called upon the name of the Lord for salvation. This is what a Jewish believer was saved for before the cross with John’s water baptism. Noah and his family were saved by water in the sense that the global flood washed away that dark sinful influence of that old evil world (i.e. the wicked people) from the life of Noah, and his family. They were no longer influenced by sinful people of that old world anymore. Just as we are no longer to be influenced by our old life of sin because we have been forgiven of our past life of sin (When we called upon the name of the Lord).
You said:
Romans 6:3 is saying that Christ is buried with a person in baptism.
This would be Spirit baptism.
For Paul said:
“I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:” (1 Corinthians 1:14-17).
In reading Acts of the Apostles 19:1-6, we see Paul re-baptize some Ephesian believers who knew only of John’s water baptism because they were unaware of the Holy Spirit. Paul laid his hands on them in this baptism in the name of Jesus and they received the Spirit.
In other words, Spirit baptism is in view here (by the laying on of hands or when a person first accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior and they speak in tongues). Granted, today, tongues are not a necessary requirement to know whether a person has received the Spirit, but back in the early church this was one of the signs given to the early church (Because the Jews required a sign).
You said:
This verse is saying the same thing as Romans 6:3.
You said:
This verse is clearly saying Spirit baptism. It says by one Spirit you have all been baptized. So this is referring to the Spirit baptizing us and not any human man.
You said:
In Spirit baptism we put on Christ.
You said:
The word baptism does not even appear in this chapter.
The gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
You said:
Baptism is not mentioned here. Being in Christ is what makes a believer a new creation and its not a water ritual or John’s water baptism.
You said:
This mentions the gospel and not baptism.
Again, the gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, and not water baptism.
Nowhere will you find the words gospel being defined as water baptism.
The gospel is believing that Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and that He was risen the third day (for your salvation).
You said:
No baptism mentioned here.
You said:
John the Baptist said that he baptizes with water but there is one Mightier than him who will baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire. Jesus also repeated something similar to the disciples shortly before Pentecost. Cornelius and his family were baptized into the Spirit before they were water baptized (under Peter’’s confusion on the topic). This Spirit baptism is the one true baptism for the New Covenant. Water baptism was only a part of John’s baptism that was before the New Covenant officially began with Christ death upon the cross. It took time for the Jewish apostles to come to realize that Spirit baptism replaced water baptism. For the apostles were even confused about Christ’s resurrection at first. They did not even believe the women’s testimonies that He was risen.
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Jim B
Well-Known Member
You don't believe that you're saved? Really? Why not?
I got saved when a pastor prayed for me when I was in the hospital with severe asthma. She prayed, "Jesus, heal this man" and I was healed at the moment! I immediately believed in Christ!
"For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8
A day later I asked for and received my prayer language; I "spoke in tongues".
Thanks for asking!
SHE??? There are no women apostles or pastors! Only a man can be a father!
You said we need to adhere to the word of God!
Matt 24:13 endures to the end.
Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
1. Romans 11:22 – God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness
2. Colossians 1:21-23 – holy and blameless, if you continue in the faith"
3. The race of faith: the example of Paul
4. Hebrews 12:22-25: "we shall not escape if we turn away from Him"
5. Hebrews 4:1-3, 9-12: "strive to enter the rest of God"
6.Hebrews 6:4-9 – those who became partakers of the holy spirit and fell away
7. Hebrews 10:23-29, 35-39: "if we sin willfully", "if anyone draws back".
8. Matthew 24:13: He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved
9. Hebrews 3:4-6: Holding fast our confidence firm until the end
10. Matthew 24:13: "But the one who endures to the end will be saved"
11. 1 John 2:24-25 – "if what you heard from the beginning abides in you"
12. 2 John 8-9 : to "everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ
13. 2 Peter 1:5-11 : "Make every effort to supplement your faith"
14. Philippians 2:12-16: "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"
15. 1 Timothy 6:10-16: the love of money
16. Galatians 5:2-4 "Severed from Christ"
17. 2 Timothy 2:11-13: "if we deny him, he will also deny us"
18. James 5:19-20: the wandered brother
19. Some will abandon the faith
20. 1 Timothy 5:8: "he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever"
22. The real family of Jesus: "Those who hear the Word of God and do it"
23. 1 Corinthians 5:5: "so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord"
24. Peter 2: "It would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness"
25. Jude: "Turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness" - a much relevant warning
26. 1 Cor. 9:27 ....Lest I myself might become a castaway
Romans 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
(Must remain obedient)
Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
So salvation by “faith alone” is completely false and impossible!
Charity
Deut. 6:5
5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema.
Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
1 cor 13:2 all faith without charity avails nothing.
1 cor 13:12 now abide faith, hope, and charity, and the greatest of these is charity.
If salvation was by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!!!
If we are saved by faith alone then when we first believed we would be saved?
Romans 13:11
…our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Jim B
Well-Known Member
Oh boy, another misinterpretation of Scripture (deliberate or not).
1 Corinthians 16:19, "The churches in the province of Asia send greetings to you. Aquila and Prisca greet you warmly in the Lord, with the church that meets in their house.
Colossians 4:15, "Give my greetings to the brothers and sisters who are in Laodicea and to Nympha and the church that meets in her house.
Philemon 1:2, "to Apphia our sister, to Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church that meets in your house."
Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus."
I know that your Catholic denomination refuses to treat women as equals (contrary to Scripture) except for Mary, your false goddess, but that is not what Scripture says.
As I have shown above, churches met in houses where women lived and, more importantly, Ephesians says that the distinction between men and women doesn't exist in Christ!!!
Also, your statement that there are no women pastors is totally wrong!
The rest of your quotes are meaningless in this discussion.
I'm really concerned that your Catholicism has blinded you to the truth!!!
All the saints are equal
In Christ but have different roles
greeting a woman is ok
not authority
Jim B
Well-Known Member
So it's okay to greet a woman? Are you sure? Saying hello to a woman is permissible? Really?
As I wrote earlier, there is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus. There is no Scriptural basis for denying a woman any role in which she chooses to serve.
You're the one exalting Mary to be "the queen of heaven", yet you deny women can't be equal to men? You are confused!!!
Hello,
Topic: Bible Alone!
The Bible by itself is an interesting work, it has been documented as the "Holy" Bible - simply meaning Set apart from every other book in the world, Bible which contains the Old Testament books, and the Apostolic Record. The bible is not a science book by any means. The bible is a useful road map to spiritual fulfilment which always leads to Christ with the finishing sectional book called the Revelation. From Genesis to Revelation to Revelation to Genesis there is a lot of history to learn about, even spiritual things to learn about. The Holy Spirit is very helpful when reading the scriptures, also is the understanding of history, and when things were written even if they are debatable datings.
The more information you gather and understand about the bible can help make a person in the decision to deciding to read it, and I personally believe the 66 book Bible is enough to learn a significant amount of information of many differing nations, as well as the history of the Jewish people of the Nation of Israel. Always ask the W questions when going through the bible Who, Why, When, What, Where, throwing in even how?
God bless be encouraged.
Topic: Bible Alone!
The Bible by itself is an interesting work, it has been documented as the "Holy" Bible - simply meaning Set apart from every other book in the world, Bible which contains the Old Testament books, and the Apostolic Record. The bible is not a science book by any means. The bible is a useful road map to spiritual fulfilment which always leads to Christ with the finishing sectional book called the Revelation. From Genesis to Revelation to Revelation to Genesis there is a lot of history to learn about, even spiritual things to learn about. The Holy Spirit is very helpful when reading the scriptures, also is the understanding of history, and when things were written even if they are debatable datings.
The more information you gather and understand about the bible can help make a person in the decision to deciding to read it, and I personally believe the 66 book Bible is enough to learn a significant amount of information of many differing nations, as well as the history of the Jewish people of the Nation of Israel. Always ask the W questions when going through the bible Who, Why, When, What, Where, throwing in even how?
God bless be encouraged.
Dropship
Well-Known Member
Reading the whole Bible is fine, but let's never forget that the four gospels are it's "nuclear core" that gives it power and we shouldn't lose sight of that, hence Paul's warning..
Paul said - "I am worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:3)
Paul said - "I am worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:3)
Reading the whole Bible is fine, but let's never forget that the four gospels are it's "nuclear core" that gives it power and we shouldn't lose sight of that, hence Paul's warning..
Paul said - "I am worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:3)
Thanks for this, @Dropship. I'm no authority on what Paul did or didn't think was "simple" (if that's the best translation of ἁπλότητος) about Christian doctrine, but I'm pretty sure the four gospels didn't exist when Paul wrote to the Church at Corinth, so I doubt he was referring to those gospels when warning the Corinthians not to be led astray from the "simplicity" of Christ. It is safe to assume that Paul didn't know those future writings would be penned, much less what message they would contain -- and unlike us, the Corinthians he wrote to couldn't have turned to those gospels for any guidance on anything. The best those Corinthians could have done in looking to Scripture for confirmation of Paul's teachings was studying the OT (as, reportedly, the Berean Christians did, per Acts 17:10-11).
I love the "nuclear core" comment. But bolstering it with a reference to 2 Cor. 11:3? That's a stretch.
Dropship
Well-Known Member
The gospels must have existed in Paul's time, either in the minds of the multitudes who'd heard Jesus speaking, and/or on paper..
The early Christians knew Jesus was the "nuclear core" of the Bible-
"Jesus gives us all we need for life" (2 Peter 1:3)
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2)
"The covenant of which Jesus is mediator is superior to the old one" (Hebrews 8:6)
"The law was given by Moses,but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17)
"Through Jesus we are saved,and not through Moses" (Acts 13:39)
"We serve in the new way of the spirit,not in the old way of the written code" (Romans 7:6)
"The veil covers the old covenant,but is removed by Jesus" (2 Corinthians 3:12)
"Jesus is worthy of more honour than Moses" (Hebrews 3:3)
"The first covenant had rules of worship, but Jesus's rules are not man-made" (Hebrews 9:1-15)
The gospels must have existed in Paul's time, either in the minds of the multitudes who'd heard Jesus speaking, and/or on paper..
I wish I understood what you meant here about Matthew, Mark, Luke and John -- the "nuclear core" -- existing "in the minds of the multitudes who heard Jesus speaking." Less than 5% of the words recorded in those gospels are recorded as being spoken to "the multitudes." Are you saying that these listeners came away with the "nuclear core" from that <5% alone? And how does that help us understand Paul's words to the Corinthians (who, presumably, were not among the multitudes who had heard Jesus a few decades earlier)?
Dropship
Well-Known Member
How many eyewitnesses to Jesus would you like?
Here ya go..
"Jesus went through all the towns and villages" (Matthew 9:35)
"Large crowds from Galilee, the Ten Cities, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him" (Matthew 4:25)
Jesus said “I've spoken openly to the world..I said nothing in secret" (John 18:20)
And there were crowds of over 5000 and 4000 at two places alone (Matthew 14:13, Matthew 15:32)
Then later the gospels were written with help from "..eyewitnesses and ministers of the word" (Luke 1:2)..
My bad, @Dropship, I totally misunderstood what you were saying. Sure, Jesus likely spoke over a million words to the multitudes. I thought you were suggesting that the multitudes were able to distill the "nuclear core" contained in the four gospels from the 400 or so words that the four written gospels record him saying to the crowds. I see now you had a different definition of "gospel" in mind.
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