Bible alone

[Illuminator]

Why do you bother to reference scriptures that do not say what you claim they say?

Acts of the Apostles 1:20

“For it is written in the book of Psalms:
‘MAY HIS RESIDENCE BE MADE DESOLATE,
AND MAY THERE BE NONE LIVING IN IT’;
and,
‘MAY ANOTHER TAKE HIS OFFICE.’​

Notice that that verse DOES NOT SAY "their Bishoprics were successive." ... it does not imply it ... it does not suggest it ... it does not HINT at the possibility.

What part of ‘MAY ANOTHER TAKE HIS OFFICE.’ don't you understand? If that's not succession, what else would you call it?

At best, it says that one new apostle must replace Judas (which is how the 11 Apostles interpreted it)

..."At best"??? How do you interpret it?

however more Apostles were martyred almost immediately and they did not draw lots and lay hands to replace those Apostles, did they?

First, they drew lots at that time because they had the authority to determine how to elect a replacement. Jesus didn't tell them directly to draw lots. Second, drawing lots to elect a successor is not a tradition or a doctrine, so the Church had the authority to change the method of election to make it more practical as the Church grew. Authority is always the issue, isn't it?
Third, authority is transferred by the laying on of hands by a higher authority than the one being ordained, not by a lesser authority.
Fourth, If an Apostolic office has no successors, it's not an office.
Fifth, the transfer of authority from Apostle to bishop is done by the laying on of hands; either by an Apostle, or another bishop(s).
Finally, I'm guessing your bishop, if you even have one, has no pedigree.[/QUOTE]

Non sequitur.
You were claiming to have oral wisdom from Saint Paul heard in Thessalonica, but you refuse to share this oral wisdom.

Straw man. You can't acknowledge the divine quality of Paul's oral preaching even exists! Only 3 of the Eleven wrote, what happened to the preaching of the other 8? Did that content vanish into thin air or has it been passed down? God is not so cruel as to keep everything Jesus and the Apostles taught a secret. It's available to any serious investigator. And not every single authentic belief and practice got written down because the Bible doesn't say it has to be. "sufficient" or "adequate" or "profitable" does not mean exclusive.

Paul said none of what you wrote above (which contradicts HIS writings).

Simply asserting a contradiction doesn't prove anything. Luther and Calvin baptized infants so they must contradict his writings too.

It has already been shown that Paul in the First Century wrote to Timothy explaining that Scripture is adequate.

Let's take a look at what Paul wrote to Timothy:
page 4, post #61
Your reply in post 64, you asserted corruption of Tradition and the Magisterium without any proof. Another uneducated, baseless insult. You lack faith that God would preserve His Church until the end and deny the Bible that says He would.

Both your timeline and your facts are off.
The 16th Century was just a European return to Biblical Truth and a rejection of Roman apostasy (triggered by people finally able to read what God wrote through the Apostles) ... as the rest of Christianity had rejected Roman apostasy in the 11th Century.

A stupid, baseless hate rant based on prejudice. Four falsehoods in one sentence.

 

[theefaith]

Sola scriptura?

Jn 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

2 John 1:12
Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, andspeak face to face, that our joy may be full.

2 Corinthians 1:15
And in this confidence I was minded to come unto you before, that ye might have a second benefit;

if an apostle teaches by:

Smoke signals
Sign language
Radio
TV
Internet or
In person

we refuse to accept it!

But if he writes it down then and only then will we believe!

even though the content is exactly the same!

the apostles themselves have no authority!
Only what the write!!!!

fundamentalism is faith without reason, logic, or rational thought!

 

[atpollard]

Ummmm, the Psalms are in the OLD Testament.
I said the NEW Testament was written in Koine Greek.

Pay attention . . .

You chose Acts 1:20 which begins: “For it is written in the book of Psalms:”
Your Greek did not help you with basic reading comprehension … the Apostles were quoting from Psalms.

 

[atpollard]

What part of ‘MAY ANOTHER TAKE HIS OFFICE.’ don't you understand? If that's not succession, what else would you call it?

I bow before the master of eisegesis.
You can make anything say whatever you want.

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less. ' 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things. '

 

[atpollard]

if an apostle teaches by:

Smoke signals
Sign language
Radio
TV
Internet or
In person

Therein lies the problem … the RCC claims to still be receiving “smoke signals, sign language, radio waves, TV transmissions, Internet messages and personal meetings” from the Apostles that tell them crazy things like Mary was assumed into Heaven, the Pope is Christ on Earth, Mary is Queen of Heaven, all prayers should go through Mary to reach God, the Church saves rather than the blood of Christ, Mary is co-redemptrix alongside Jesus Christ, and we should confess to men rather than God if we want our sins forgiven … all of which are contradicted by what the Apostles WROTE when they were alive.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You chose Acts 1:20 which begins: “For it is written in the book of Psalms:”
Your Greek did not help you with basic reading comprehension … the Apostles were quoting from Psalms.

This tells us TWO things:
1. Luke got HIS reference to Psalm 19 from the Septuagint – the GREEK translation of the OT.

2, This is further evidence that Jesus and the Apostles studied from the Septuagint, which contains the Seven (7) Deuterocanonical Books that Protestants REMOVED in the 16th century – and which are referenced in the NT almost 200 times.

Interesting . . .

 

[atpollard]

Alexandria … Home of Hellenistic Judaism and birthplace of the Septuagint, Gnosticism and most of the early Church heresies. Yes, let us embrace all they loved and taught as we reject the teachings of Paul.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Alexandria … Home of Hellenistic Judaism and birthplace of the Septuagint, Gnosticism and most of the early Church heresies. Yes, let us embrace all they loved and taught as we reject the teachings of Paul.

Soooooo, because YOU were humiliated by NOT understanding that there was a GREEK Translation of the OT 0 the Septuagint - ir is now a "heretical Gnostic source" according to you??

There isn't a Scripture scholar aline - Jesich, Catholic or Protestant who wouldn't LAUGH ar tiy for that idiotic claim.

And what does Acts 1:20 have to do with the teachings of Paul??

 

[n2thelight]

Salvation is not the issue here. You have no answer to the question. Wasn’t the requirement of baptism already firmly fixed in the life and belief of the churches before the New Testament was written? Yes! But you think the 1st century Christians practiced Baptism by reading the New Testament. You can't see how absurd your position is.

Are you saying the Old Testament is the sole rule of faith? Another absurdity. Whenever Jesus referred to the Old Testament, He explained what it meant, He didn't let the Scriptures speak for themselves! If you bother to check your Bible and see the verses Jesus was referring to, none of them support sola scriptura.
The Passover Seder, the Tradition Jesus and His family practiced annually.
Bad traditions of men does not automatically rule out the good traditions Paul commands us to follow. Equating the two does violence to everything Paul wrote on the matter.
Creating a false dichotomy between scripture and tradition is a man made tradition in itself. It's also the result of brain damage caused by sola scriptura because it blinds you from the true nature of Tradition. You simply cannot comprehend it, like you cannot answer my question: Wasn’t the requirement of baptism already firmly fixed in the life and belief of the churches before the New Testament was written?
Yes, and the overwhelming evidence is there for anyone who wishes to see it.

What I'm saying is at the time that's all they had

Salvation is not the issue here. You have no answer to the question. Wasn’t the requirement of baptism already firmly fixed in the life and belief of the churches before the New Testament was written? Yes! But you think the 1st century Christians practiced Baptism by reading the New Testament. You can't see how absurd your position is.

Are you saying the Old Testament is the sole rule of faith? Another absurdity. Whenever Jesus referred to the Old Testament, He explained what it meant, He didn't let the Scriptures speak for themselves! If you bother to check your Bible and see the verses Jesus was referring to, none of them support sola scriptura.
The Passover Seder, the Tradition Jesus and His family practiced annually.
Bad traditions of men does not automatically rule out the good traditions Paul commands us to follow. Equating the two does violence to everything Paul wrote on the matter.
Creating a false dichotomy between scripture and tradition is a man made tradition in itself. It's also the result of brain damage caused by sola scriptura because it blinds you from the true nature of Tradition. You simply cannot comprehend it, like you cannot answer my question: Wasn’t the requirement of baptism already firmly fixed in the life and belief of the churches before the New Testament was written?
Yes, and the overwhelming evidence is there for anyone who wishes to see it.

Let's put it this way , why would I or need the Catholic Church traditions or anything for that matter outside of scripture ?

What do you all's traditions offer me that's not in scripture ?

Finally , what's wrong with scripture alone ,I'm I missing something ?

 

[n2thelight]

the point here is that they had the authority and MUST BE OBEYED!

there persons not scripture

and this authority was taken from them Matt 21:43 and given to Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18-19 18:18 Lk 22:19 Matt 28:19 Jn 20:21 eph 2:20 etc.

So submit and obey!

obedience to the apostles is obedience to Christ!

But the catholic church are not them, they remain traditions of men . I mean for real how can any organization of Christ prohibit the reading of His Word

 

[Brakelite]

That’s your opinion, not a documented FACT – and you KNOW what they say about opinions . . .

WHY is it that you guys can make false accusations with th ease in which you draw breath – but when you are asked to substantiate it – you FAIL??

Don’t you fear GOD, who commands you:
Thou SHALL NOT bear false witness (Exod. 20:16)??

A photo doesn't constitute documented fact??? Perhaps you need a clearer pic? What have we got here exactly?

• A man seated on a great white throne...(Revelation 20:11)
• Between two cherubim...(Exodus 25:22)
• And 4 living creatures...(Revelation 4:6)
• And in the midst of elders...(Revelation 5:6).

What else can this possibly be a depiction of other than self glorification, with the approval and participation of the church hierarchy?

 

[Brakelite]

A photo doesn't constitute documented fact??? Perhaps you need a clearer pic? What have we got here exactly?

• A man seated on a great white throne...(Revelation 20:11)
• Between two cherubim...(Exodus 25:22)
• And 4 living creatures...(Revelation 4:6)
• And in the midst of elders...(Revelation 5:6).

What else can this possibly be a depiction of other than self glorification, with the approval and participation of the church hierarchy? View attachment 24352

It was precisely mindsets, attitudes, pronouncements and practises such as this which gave powerful impetus to the truths that the reformation was revealing, and which modem protestantism has forgotten. That the succession of popes, the system of the Papacy under their autocratic rule and authority, is indeed the Antichrist of scripture southern of by Paul, John, and the prophet Daniel. A man seated in the place of Christ using the authority of the dragon and heading a counterfeit Christian religion. Antichrist..."instead of Christ"..." In place of Christ".




Vicarius filii dei.

 

[atpollard]

Soooooo, because YOU were humiliated by NOT understanding that there was a GREEK Translation of the OT 0 the Septuagint - ir is now a "heretical Gnostic source" according to you??

There isn't a Scripture scholar aline - Jesich, Catholic or Protestant who wouldn't LAUGH ar tiy for that idiotic claim.

And what does Acts 1:20 have to do with the teachings of Paul??

I will be called to give account for my willful rejection of the RCC veneration of Mary (the reason that I could not, as a matter of conscience, join the Catholic Church when I converted from Atheism) which my conscience could not allow me to affirm when what I read in the Bible seemed to contradict so much of it.

You will be called to give an account for your false accusations against one whom Christ purchased with His shed blood and sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Luke may have quoted from the Septuagint, but we have no early examples of the Septuagint surviving, only copies of later manuscripts. Your claims about what books were in the ‘Septuagint’ that Luke quoted are pure speculation (an argument from silence). However, that is 100% irrelevant since the meaning of a quote from Psalms (Psalms being written in Hebrew originally) would be most clearly understood from examining the original passage (Psalms) in its original language (Hebrew) … which is irrespective of any later translations employed in quoting it.

You are clueless what I know or do not know about the Septuagint. You are merely rude and presumptuous. I will grant you this … I am far less impressed with what books Secular Greek Jews thought were important to translate from Hebrew and Aramaic into Greek than you are. I am far more interested in what the actual Apostles and their contemporary traveling companions (like Luke and Mark) wrote about what Jesus taught. Your fascination with “secret knowledge” of the ECFs shares much with the Gnostic cults and explains your shared fascination with the same flawed books that they loved and Jerome rejected (so it is not just a Protestant thing unless you want to claim Jerome was a Protestant).

 

[BreadOfLife]

A photo doesn't constitute documented fact??? Perhaps you need a clearer pic? What have we got here exactly?

• A man seated on a great white throne...(Revelation 20:11)
• Between two cherubim...(Exodus 25:22)
• And 4 living creatures...(Revelation 4:6)
• And in the midst of elders...(Revelation 5:6).

What else can this possibly be a depiction of other than self glorification, with the approval and participation of the church hierarchy? View attachment 24352

NO, it doesn't - and YOU should knpoe better because we've discussed this before.
But, just like your goddes/founder, Ellen White - you perpetuate this filth out of pure hate, not ignorance.
If it was only a matter of ignorance - your woundn't be guilty (John 9:41).

FIRST of all, so that you are exposed before everybosy here - taking four phrases from from different places in Scripture and patchworking them together to create soome ominous warning is not only sinful - it BLASPHEMOUS. You're misrepresenting God by taking takiing unrelated verses from His Word and gluing them together to make ONE message.

And, although your disgusting hatred is rooted in ignorance - it doesn't stop there,
There picture you posted is of a MASS being celebrated, as I told you before. You conveniently LEFT OIT the rest of the picture.

The other Bisops in the picture are concelebrants. On special occassions, a mass may include SEVERAL priests who are celebrating the Liturgy. there is ONE Celebrante and multiple CONcelebrants. If you've ever been to an Ordination - you can literally have HUNDREDS of priests taking part.

You're a dishonest person and yoiur SDA cult survives on the LIES it feeds on.
If you hate the Catholic Church - that's fine with me. But if you need to resort to lying to get your point across - try explaining that to God when Hew is judging you . . .

Exod. 20:16
“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."

Good luck with that . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I will be called to give account for my willful rejection of the RCC veneration of Mary (the reason that I could not, as a matter of conscience, join the Catholic Church when I converted from Atheism) which my conscience could not allow me to affirm when what I read in the Bible seemed to contradict so much of it.

That's because your ignorance of ALL things Cathlic is FAR mor powerful.
There's not a SINGLE Catholic teaching that "contraducts" Scripture.

You will be called to give an account for your false accusations against one whom Christ purchased with His shed blood and sealed with the Holy Spirit.

HUH??

If you're talking about yourself - then I don't know this to be the case.
First of all - I haven't engaged iin "FALSE" accusations of anybody.

Secondly, if you ARE talking about yourself - then I DON'T know you to be "Sealed with the Holy Spirit."
Those who are sealed with the Holy Spirit DON'T come onto public forums like this one and vomite out the filth that YOU do.

Luke may have quoted from the Septuagint, but we have no early examples of the Septuagint surviving, only copies of later manuscripts. Your claims about what books were in the ‘Septuagint’ that Luke quoted are pure speculation (an argument from silence). However, that is 100% irrelevant since the meaning of a quote from Psalms (Psalms being written in Hebrew originally) would be most clearly understood from examining the original passage (Psalms) in its original language (Hebrew) … which is irrespective of any later translations employed in quoting it.

Ummmmmm, you never heard pof the Dead Sea Scrolls??
Your claim had slightly more validity before they were found in a cave in Qumran in 1946.
The Deuterocanonical Books were included in the collection.

Of course - your case FALLS APART when you see that almost 200 rquotes and references to them on the pages of the NT. Here are a couple of examples:
Eph. 6:13-17 - The whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

As to your point about Luke making a 'mistake' because he quotes from the Septuagint - that's something you'll have to take up with GOD, who assures us that His Word is breathed out by HIM (2 Tim. 3:16).

You are clueless what I know or do not know about the Septuagint. You are merely rude and presumptuous. I will grant you this … I am far less impressed with what books Secular Greek Jews thought were important to translate from Hebrew and Aramaic into Greek than you are. I am far more interested in what the actual Apostles and their contemporary traveling companions (like Luke and Mark) wrote about what Jesus taught. Your fascination with “secret knowledge” of the ECFs shares much with the Gnostic cults and explains your shared fascination with the same flawed books that they loved and Jerome rejected (so it is not just a Protestant thing unless you want to claim Jerome was a Protestant).

WOW.
You are truly babkrupt of ALL Scriptural AND historical knowledge.
Time for another Lesson . . .

Jerome didn't "reject" the Deuterocanonical Books. He was COERCED into believing so by the Jewish scholars of his day. As I already explained in an earllier post - the OT Canon was closed at the Rabbinical gathering at Jamnia (Jabneh) some time AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

The Chief Rabbi and advocated for deleting the Deuterocanonical Books was Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph (A.D. 37-137). This is the SAME guy who declared that a man named Simon Simon Bar Kokhba was the “real” Messiah during the 2nd Jewish Revolt (circa 132 AD). A NEW Greek ttranslation of the OT was written - WITHOUT the 7 Books.

So, a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Canon of Scripture that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Akiva) who proclaimed a FALSE “Christ” (Kokhba). And YOUR Protestant Fathers followed the edict of this FALSE Prophet (Akiva).
Congratulations.

Now - BACK to Jerome . . .
When he was translating the Scriptures into Latin, he sought the help of Jewish scholars, who convinced him that the Deuterocanonicals were NOT inspired. He later recanted.

Here, in his own words, Jerome explains this and condemns people like YOU who reject the Deuterocanonicals:
"What sin have I committed if I followed the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susanna, the Son of the Three Children, and the story of Bel and the Dragon, which are not found in the Hebrew volume (ie. canon), proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. For I wasn't relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they [the Jews] are wont to make against us" (Against Rufinus 11:33 [A.D. 402]).

Finally - why is it that uneducated Catholics who stay in their place and allow people like YOU to spew their filth are considered "nice" - but an educated Catholic who exposes yout lies piblicly. "Rude and presumptuous"??
What complete hypocrisy . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

It was precisely mindsets, attitudes, pronouncements and practises such as this which gave powerful impetus to the truths that the reformation was revealing, and which modem protestantism has forgotten. That the succession of popes, the system of the Papacy under their autocratic rule and authority, is indeed the Antichrist of scripture southern of by Paul, John, and the prophet Daniel. A man seated in the place of Christ using the authority of the dragon and heading a counterfeit Christian religion. Antichrist..."instead of Christ"..." In place of Christ".
View attachment 24353
Vicarius filii dei.
View attachment 24354

And there you go again with your goddess's (Elle White) manure.

The term "Vicarus Fili Day" that she used to "deduce" that the Pope is the Anti-Christ by calculating the numerical value of this title as "666". The problem is tjat this term is from a spurious 8th century FORGERY called, the Donation of Constantine.

ANOTHER problem for you is that "Vicarus Fili Dei" is NOT a title of the Pope.
His official Titles are:
- Bishop of Rome
- Vicar of Jesus Christ, aka Vicar of Christ
- Successor of the Prince of the Apostles
- Primate of Italy
- Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province
- Sovereign of the State of Vatican City
- Servant of the Servants of God

“Pope” is not even an official title.
So much for your SDA LIES . . .

 

[Illuminator]

Your fascination with “secret knowledge” of the ECFs shares much with the Gnostic cults and explains your shared fascination with the same flawed books that they loved and Jerome rejected (so it is not just a Protestant thing unless you want to claim Jerome was a Protestant).

St. Jerome’s thoughts on the deuterocanon in his Vulgate must be squared with his statements elsewhere. For example, in his Letter to Eustochium he quotes Sirach 13:2: “For does not the scripture say: ‘Burden not yourself above your power?’” Elsewhere Jerome also refers to Baruch (Letter to Oceanus), the Story of Susannah (Letter to Paulinus) and Wisdom (Letter 51) as Scripture. Moreover, during St. Jerome’s life (c. 347-420) the canon of Scripture was still unsettled and up for debate, and thus his opinion was not in explicit contradiction to Catholic teaching. Several local councils — Hippo, Carthage, and Rome — affirmed the deuterocanon as Scripture, but none were ecumenical and thus binding on the entire Church.​

https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2020/09/29/st-jerome-and-protestantism/

"Your fascination with “secret knowledge” of the ECFs shares much with the Gnostic cults", a statement that reeks of Modernism.

Modernism is the most dangerous of all heresies because it destroys any basis for belief in a supernatural world, whereas previous heresies had restricted themselves to denying one or more teachings of the Catholic faith.

St. Pius X described Modernism as "the synthesis of all heresies" as it seeks to "lay the axe not to the branches and shoots (of the Catholic Church) but to the very root", that is, to the faith and "its deepest fibers, and once they have struck the axe "they (modernists) proceed to diffuse poison throughout the whole tree, so that there is no part of the Catholic truth which they leave untouched" (Pascendi). Modernism poses a threat to our faith, and hence to our hope of salvation.

It would not be false to call the Modernists the worst enemies of the Church for it is not from without but from within that they plot the destruction of the Church; by mingling in themselves rationalism and Catholicism, which is used to subtly seduce the ignorant in the name of "progress".​

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/modernism/modnsm.htm

 

[BreadOfLife]

A photo doesn't constitute documented fact??? Perhaps you need a clearer pic? What have we got here exactly?
What else can this possibly be a depiction of other than self glorification, with the approval and participation of the church hierarchy? View attachment 24352

So - if sitting in a fancy chair is the mark of "self-worship" - then the following world leaders, by YOUR standard s- are "Worshipping"" themselves??
What a crock . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

AA photo doesn't constitute documented fact??? Perhaps you need a clearer pic? What have we got here exactly?

• A man seated on a great white throne...(Revelation 20:11)
• Between two cherubim...(Exodus 25:22)
• And 4 living creatures...(Revelation 4:6)
• And in the midst of elders...(Revelation 5:6).

What else can this possibly be a depiction of other than self glorification, with the approval and participation of the church hierarchy?

Examples of World Leaders – surrounded by “Four living creatures” (Rev. 4:6).

Do you now realize ho random and stupid your understanding of Scripture is?

 

[atpollard]

That's because your ignorance of ALL things Cathlic is FAR mor powerful.
There's not a SINGLE Catholic teaching that "contraducts" Scripture.

My “ignorance” of all things Catholic stems from the Catechism for Inquirers (the publication and the class) and that portion of your PONDEROUS Catechism that I have read. The “contradiction” exists if one accepts the words on the page at face value without placing equal value on the Traditions that claim the Scripture means the opposite of what the words say.

• [Matthew 12:47] Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
  
• [Mark 3:32] A crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You."
  
• [Luke 8:20] And it was reported to Him, "Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wishing to see You."

Three classic examples … this invisible and unprovable tradition tells me that THREE DIFFERENT AUTHORS said “mother and brothers” when they really meant “not-brothers”. (Assuming one subscribes to the ‘brother means cousin’ myth rather than the ‘Joseph had a previous wife and sons’ myth … neither of which Luke, who recorded the details, thought a detail worth mentioning.)

So a more accurate statement is: There's not a single Catholic teaching that contradicts Catholic reinterpretation of Scripture.