Biblical Foreknowledge

[GodsGrace]

I believe it can be said God decreed everything that occurs because knowing what would occur God created.

This does not mean that God authors evil, but that God works everything for the good and this not in the sense of reaction.

And this is a philosophical answer to a philosophical question.

I stick to Scripture as well. I believe that everything holds together in Christ, that God knows even the numbers of hairs on my head, that God feeds the sparrows and clothes the flowers. Man makes his plans but God controls his steps. Nothing happens that has not been ordained to occur by God. Nothing.

At the same time we act freely and our plans are ours. We make our own choices. God does not force unwilling people to belief or disbelief.

I do not have to understand how these things fit together. I only have to believe both are true - we do not allow our "yes" to Scripture become a "no" to other passages.

I do agree that we have to come to our own understanding of this.
You've gone to seminary and have gone through this thoroughly, I'm sure.
I've also studied this a lot with teachers.
I've come to understand that there's a difference between allowing evil and causing it.
I think we agree on this.
Agreed with Romans 8:28 all things work for the good.....

And you know what they say:
Man proposes
and God disposes.

God works all things to His will.

But I don't know what you mean by your very first sentence...
I believe it can be said God decreed everything that occurs because knowing what would occur God created.

Then a little further down you state that nothing happens that God does not ORDAIN to happen.

Are you one of those that believes that if God knows something (foreknowledge) He will cause it to happen? If not, could you explain better --- Thanks.

 

[Enoch111]

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (John 6.37)

Do Calvinists even understand this in the light of ALL Gospel truth?

1. Whom does the Father given to the Son? All those who believe on the Son.

2. Who can come to Christ? Anyone and everyone.

So what this verse tells us is (a) all believers are secure in Christ, (b) anyone who repents and believes can come to Christ, and (c) those who believe are given to the Son by the Father.

Does this verse have any connection to Unconditional Election? None whatsoever.

 

[farouk]

Do Calvinists even understand this in the light of ALL Gospel truth?

1. Whom does the Father given to the Son? All those who believe on the Son.

2. Who can come to Christ? Anyone and everyone.

So what this verse tells us is (a) all believers are secure in Christ, (b) anyone who repents and believes can come to Christ, and (c) those who believe arr given to the Son by the Father.

Does this verse have any connection to Unconditional Election? None whatsoever.

I think we need to look at the issues through Scripture directly, rather than through logic.

 

[John Caldwell]

I do agree that we have to come to our own understanding of this.
You've gone to seminary and have gone through this thoroughly, I'm sure.
I've also studied this a lot with teachers.
I've come to understand that there's a difference between allowing evil and causing it.
I think we agree on this.
Agreed with Romans 8:28 all things work for the good.....

And you know what they say:
Man proposes
and God disposes.

God works all things to His will.

But I don't know what you mean by your very first sentence...
I believe it can be said God decreed everything that occurs because knowing what would occur God created.

Then a little further down you state that nothing happens that God does not ORDAIN to happen.

Are you one of those that believes that if God knows something (foreknowledge) He will cause it to happen? If not, could you explain better --- Thanks.

I think that God has decreed all to hapoen as He knows it will happen. This goes beyond "ordain" I suppose because God made certain the future woud occur no other way when He created.

I could shoot a watermelon and claim I was not responsible because all I did was pull the trigger knowing what would happen. The propulsion supplied by the power caused the bullet to speed through the air and strike the mellon.

The difference is that men have free will, so we are responsible. But this does not mean that God was not in control (only that God did not author our evil).

 

[GodsGrace]

I think we need to look at the issues through Scripture directly, rather than through logic.

Enoch is talking about scripture.
He just didn't post it...
everything he said is biblical and has verses.

 

[Enoch111]

I think we need to look at the issues through Scripture directly, rather than through logic.

Sure. Why don't you look at it in the light of Revelation 22:17?

And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely.

Now if the Spirit and the Bride say "Come" is it not true that the Father and the Son also say "Come"? After all the Father is the one who gives the Bride to the Son, and Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, along with the Bride say "Come and take of the Water of Life freely". Eternal life is God's GIFT to the one who believes, and WHOSOEVER means anyone and everyone.

 

[John Caldwell]

Do Calvinists even understand this in the light of ALL Gospel truth?

Calvinism tries to explain how and why the gospel is necessary but does not have anything to do with the gospel itself. That's why holding it as a gospel is idolatry. Calvinism us philosophy- addressing predestination in salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think that God has decreed all to hapoen as He knows it will happen. This goes beyond "ordain" I suppose because God made certain the future woud occur no other way when He created.

I could shoot a watermelon and claim I was not responsible because all I did was pull the trigger knowing what would happen. The propulsion supplied by the power caused the bullet to speed through the air and strike the mellon.

The difference is that men have free will, so we are responsible. But this does not mean that God was not in control (only that God did not author our evil).

Hmmm. This requires some thought.
I feel like we're saying the same thing, but not saying the same thing!

What came first...
The decreeing
or the knowing what will happen??!

Something one teacher insists on when I say that God knew something from the beginning....

God knew it but not until it happened.

Good luck with that!

 

[Grailhunter]

It's very late h ere and this has to wait till tomorrow,,,
but could you please explain to me what prescience is?
I don't like to learn anything from google, except if I already know what I'm reading is correct.
IOW, what's the difference between prescience and foreknowledge. (I know what foreknowledge is)


This is the dictionary explanation which means little in matters of the bible (most times).

prescience
/ˈprɛsɪəns/

noun

1. the fact of knowing something in advance; foreknowledge.
   "with extraordinary prescience, Jung actually predicted the Nazi eruption"
   sinonimi: far-sightedness, foresight, foreknowledge;

It is kind of like John is unprepossessing....lol Just kidding John.

 

[Grailhunter]

Hmmm. This requires some thought.
I feel like we're saying the same thing, but not saying the same thing!

What came first...
The decreeing
or the knowing what will happen??!

Something one teacher insists on when I say that God knew something from the beginning....

God knew it but not until it happened.

Good luck with that!

The problem is with the implication of decreed...God created and it went forth, no decree other than the command to create. And the watermelon should be able to shoot back if it has free-will. God lives in timelines. He sees the beginning and the end....but little or no predestination. In the end we do not know the glory we will achieve. Very few people pay attention to the fact that Christ said, "You are gods." That does not sound like puppets to me!

 

[John Caldwell]

Hmmm. This requires some thought.
I feel like we're saying the same thing, but not saying the same thing!

What came first...
The decreeing
or the knowing what will happen??!

Something one teacher insists on when I say that God knew something from the beginning....

God knew it but not until it happened.

Good luck with that!

That's easy .

Neither came first. If God is omniscient then He does not learn the future but simply knows all. If God is omniscient then the act of choosing between two options is not accurate either as one cannot be a true option.

 

[Enoch111]

I think that God has decreed all to happen as He knows it will happen.

Now you are repeating what the Westminster Confession of Faith says. But a decree is an order having the force of law, or in terms of theology God's foreordaining will.
decree
noun
de·cree | \ di-ˈkrē \
Definition of decree
1: an order usually having the force of law, a judicial decree by royal decree
2 a: a religious ordinance enacted by council or titular head a papal decree
b: a foreordaining will -- God's decree

The only problem with equating foreknowledge or omniscience with a decree is that it makes God directly responsible for all the sin and evil in the world. AND THAT IS ABSOLUTE NONSENSE. And because this is nonsensical, Five Point Calvinism is nonsense.

 

[farouk]

Now you are repeating what the Westminster Confession of Faith says. But a decree is an order having the force of law, or in terms of theology God's foreordaining will.
decree
noun
de·cree | \ di-ˈkrē \
Definition of decree
1: an order usually having the force of law, a judicial decree by royal decree
2 a: a religious ordinance enacted by council or titular head a papal decree
b: a foreordaining will -- God's decree

The only problem with equating foreknowledge of omniscience with a decree is that it makes God directly responsible for all the sin and evil in the world. AND THAT IS ABSOLUTE NONSENSE. And because this is nonsensicial, Five Point Calvinism is nonsense.

I do think there is ample Scripture for all the Points of Calvinism, but what Scripture reveals in totality is broader than what is contained in them. This is one reason why I am not too keen on putting too much confidence in abstract logic.

 

[GodsGrace]

The problem is with the implication of decreed...God created and it went forth, no decree other than the command to create. And the watermelon should be able to shoot back if it has free-will. God lives in timelines. He sees the beginning and the end....but little or no predestination. In the end we do not know the glory we will achieve. Very few people pay attention to the fact that Christ said, "You are gods." That does not sound like puppets to me!

God created and it went forward....
The watermelon rather reminded me of those that want to say that
the gun shot the person....take the guns away and all will be OK.
NO! The person shot the person.

I do agree with you that there is some predestination because God WILL achieve His ultimate will....His ultimate plan...whatever that may be -- we do not know.

Have I ever given my analogy of the football game?
The game is life.
The end is God's will.
The plays are our free will...
but God will work it out to HIS ENDING.

I don't think anyone in this conversation is saying we are puppets...
but there are those who do.
And, of course, we are not.
GOD would be happy with fake love?
MAN is not happy with fake love.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's easy .

Neither came first. If God is omniscient then He does not learn the future but simply knows all. If God is omniscient then the act of choosing between two options is not accurate either as one cannot be a true option.

Oh. Yeah.
That's as clear as mud.
Maybe you'd like to meet Fra' Lorenzo?
I'm just happy more than one person understands this.

 

[GodsGrace]

I do think there is ample Scripture for all the Points of Calvinism, but what Scripture reveals in totality is broader than what is contained in them. This is one reason why I am not too keen on putting too much confidence in abstract logic.

Logic is good.
We have to read scripture...
but we also need to UNDERSTAND it.
Matthew 22:37

 

[Grailhunter]

God created and it went forward....
The watermelon rather reminded me of those that want to say that
the gun shot the person....take the guns away and all will be OK.
NO! The person shot the person.

I do agree with you that there is some predestination because God WILL achieve His ultimate will....His ultimate plan...whatever that may be -- we do not know.

Have I ever given my analogy of the football game?
The game is life.
The end is God's will.
The plays are our free will...
but God will work it out to HIS ENDING.

I don't think anyone in this conversation is saying we are puppets...
but there are those who do.
And, of course, we are not.
GOD would be happy with fake love?
MAN is not happy with fake love.

lol I love it!

 

[John Caldwell]

Now you are repeating what the Westminster Confession of Faith says. But a decree is an order having the force of law, or in terms of theology God's foreordaining will.
decree
noun
de·cree | \ di-ˈkrē \
Definition of decree
1: an order usually having the force of law, a judicial decree by royal decree
2 a: a religious ordinance enacted by council or titular head a papal decree
b: a foreordaining will -- God's decree

The only problem with equating foreknowledge or omniscience with a decree is that it makes God directly responsible for all the sin and evil in the world. AND THAT IS ABSOLUTE NONSENSE. And because this is nonsensical, Five Point Calvinism is nonsense.

It depends. In the our court system knowledge is often evinence enough to hold on responsible without making that person actually guilty of the offense itself.

I am by no means saying God authors evil or sin. I am saying God by the act of creating men while knowing these men would sin can be viewed as a decree (not that men should sin but that men would sin).

 

[John Caldwell]

Oh. Yeah.
That's as clear as mud.
Maybe you'd like to meet Fra' Lorenzo?
I'm just happy more than one person understands this.

Karl Barth would righy say this is all philosophy and no theology because theology goes streight to Christ. But being that Karl is dead, I'll say it.

 

[Enoch111]

I am by no means saying God authors evil or sin. I am saying God by the act of creating men while knowing these men would sin can be viewed as a decree

Sorry, but that won't fly. The only decree in the act of creation was to be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. But man would be responsible for fulfilling that.

A Royal Decree is a royal decree, and a Divine Decree is a divine decree. It has the force of law. So to claim that God decreed everything which must come to pass means that He ruled that sin and evil would flourish on earth by Divine Decree. So it is far better to say that this whole concept is BOGUS.