Biblical justification for harming or killing followers of Jesus

[Anchorite]

Thanks Matthias, this is happening in the church my son attends, and yes, he spoke to elders and pastor and no it didn't go anywhere. I have encouraged him to consider leaving, but since his wife is not on board with that, it may create a whole new problem for him. Seeing this particular topic, I thought it might be helpful to hear from other Christians to know if this is common, because I've been attending churches for several years and I have never heard a prayer from anyone in the church that asks for God to remove by death anyone from this earth. It kind of sounds like making themselves judges of another person's heart. I can't help but think about Jonah when he didn't want to preach to Ninevah because he knew of God's compassion. God certainly did not tell him he was okay with that.. Thanks again, many blessings.

As my wife and I entered a church that we were leaders in, the pastor greeted us, saying, “We have to kill the mullahs!”

He exhibited some other bizarre behaviors, so we quit that church.

When church leaders talk about killing enemies, or pray for God to kill enemies, the Spirit of Christ has departed — and you must get out of there immediately.

 

[Anchorite]

From the OP:

and

As always, we seek balance in scripture to understand application of doctrine. While it is true that much New Testament teaching, including the Lord's examples of "turning the other cheek", "forgive them for they know not what they do", etc. are the higher law to be practiced by Christians, we also note examples where believers are given authority to act in an offensive manner:

Read what Paul brought upon Elymas the sorcerer when he interfered with the work of the Gospel in Acts 13:

"9 Then Saul (who also is called Paul), filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,

10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the
right ways of the Lord?

11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand."

In his second epistle to Timothy, Paul record this insight:

"14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words. {our words: or, our preachings

16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge."

This verse is notable in how Paul, on one hand, acts in an imprecatory manner against the coppersmith, while interceding for those who failed to stand up for him (Paul). This same Alexander is also named in 1 Timothy 1:20, along with Hymeneus as a blasphemer whom Paul there turns over to Satan.

What appears to be a rather consistent pattern in scripture is the model of those whom we would label "reprobate" - according to Webster, "one morally abandoned or lost". Imprecatory action would be preceded by much intercession, striving with and attempts to bring a person to right standing. This was the model given by Christ in Matthew 18:7-20.

As Christians, we do not curse out of personal vengeance, hatred or malice, but strive with the person for a season until it becomes apparent that the person will not turn from unrighteousness. It also appears that there are special circumstances whereby we may deal with one in an imprecatory fashion:

1.) Where the work of the gospel is impeded and the will of God would be opposed.

2.) Where there appears to be no repentance, contrition or desire to turn from a path of unrighteousness.

3.) Where legal remedies are exhausted WITHOUT justice and the work and/or will of God is opposed.

In situations requiring examination of an imprecatory action, it would be my counsel to anyone to examine deliberately the scriptures and apply the examples outlined by Jesus and his followers. I believe the three points listed above will become obvious.

Imprecatory Prayer - The concept of offensive oriented combative prayer as seen in various Old Testament settings, particularly in the Psalms (6:10, 59:10, 79:12, 139:22, 143:12, etc.). While some superficially equate this practice as a curse that is antithetical to Christ's Scriptural admonition to love thy enemies, there are numerous New Testament passages that indicate imprecatory prayer is an appropriate weapon on occasion.

One final point: during the height of the tribulation, we see the two witnesses given power that:

" ... if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this
manner be killed."

Depending on how you interpret WHO the two witnesses are, it becomes apparent that the power of Elijah will be restored in some fashion to tribulation saints (see 2 Kings 2).

You avoid answering the question of Christians killing enemies, or praying for their deaths, by mentioning the Lord punishing a sorcerer with temporary blindness, Alexander the coppersmith reaping what he sowed, and Psalms-based imprecatory prayers.

None of which have anything to do with Christians killing or praying for enemies to be killed.


Luke 9

51As the day of His ascension approached, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem.

52He sent messengers on ahead, who went into a village of the Samaritans to make arrangements for Him.

53But the people there refused to welcome Him, because He was heading for Jerusalem.

54When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do You want us to call down fire from heaven to consume them?”

55But Jesus turned and rebuked them.

56And He and His disciples went on to another village.

 

[doctrox]

You avoid answering the question of Christians killing enemies,

The Holy Bible is replete with examples where God ordered the Israelites into certain areas/cities to kill every man, woman, child and animal. I won't bore you by posting the copious scriptures.

 

[Matthias]

The Holy Bible is replete with examples where God ordered the Israelites into certain areas/cities to kill every man, woman, child and animal. I won't bore you by posting the copious scriptures.

Where does God do that in the New Testament?

Are you prepared to kill fellow Christians? Are you prepared to go into cities and kill every man, woman, child and animal?

 

[doctrox]

You avoid answering the question of Christians killing enemies,

and

Where does God do that in the New Testament?

The Israelite scenarios (re: killing one's enemies) I mentioned are OT.

None of which have anything to do with Christians killing or praying for enemies to be killed.

Believers in the NT are to love and forgive enemies, renounce violence and condemn murder.

 

[Matthias]

The Israelite scenarios (re: killing one's enemies) I mentioned are OT.

What does that have to do with Christians?

 

[doctrox]

What does that have to do with Christians?

Define "Christians" (Or do you wish to exclude Israelites from your query?)

 

[Matthias]

Define "Christians."

Followers of Messiah Jesus.

 

[doctrox]

Followers of Messiah Jesus.

1) Self-defense (e.g. Jesus instructed his disciples: If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. - Luke 22:36).
2) Capital punishment (e.g. God's servants who "bear the sword" execute wrath on evildoers, effectively sanctioning capital punishment. - Romans 13:4).

 

[Matthias]

1) Self-defense (e.g. Jesus instructed his disciples: If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. - Luke 22:36).

How many times did Jesus and the apostles use a sword to defend themselves?

”We do not use the weapons of the world.” - Paul

2) Capital punishment (e.g. God's servants who "bear the sword" execute wrath on evildoers, effectively sanctioning capital punishment. - Romans 13:4).

That’s the role of the state, not the followers of Jesus. (Nero and his government in the days of Paul.)

 

[doctrox]

Are you prepared to kill fellow Christians? Are you prepared to go into cities and kill every man, woman, child and animal?

I am prepared to do whatever God tells me to do i.e. being obedient.

And, because most ppl do not read the Holy Bible for themselves but rather listen to men who talk about the Holy Bible, they do not understand the reason why God commanded the wipeout of certain cities/ppl.

”We do not use the weapons of the world.” - Paul

Indeed. However, most ppl don't use any weapon and so are losing the battle as we speak..

 

[Matthias]

I am prepared to do whatever God tells me to do i.e. being obedient.

Has God ever told you to kill fellow Christians? Has God ever told you that it’s okay for followers of Jesus to kill one another, for any reason?

And, because most ppl do not read the Holy Bible for themselves but rather listen to men who talk about the Holy Bible, they do not understand the reason why God commanded the wipeout of certain cities/ppl.

 

[doctrox]

That’s the role of the state.

There is no true separation between God and "the state."

 

[Matthias]

There is no true separation between God and "the state."

The state is exercising God’s vengeance on the wicked.

 

[doctrox]

Has God ever told you to kill fellow Christians? Has God ever told you that it’s okay for followers of Jesus to kill one another for any reason?

God has never told me, a follower of Christ, to kill another follower of Christ.

 

[doctrox]

The state is exercising God’s vengeance on the wicked.

"The state" is not a separate entity, re: the "separation of church and state" lie.

In truth, there is to be no such separation. So let's expose the real red herring.

To illustrate, the "United States" is a corporation (28 USC § 3002(15)(A)), from which we get the word "corpse" i.e. a body, a dead thing.

Compromising with temporal powers can never lead to redemption. Most "Christians" have accepted the unrighteous code of the corporation, instead of insisting that the corporation follow the Laws of Almighty God. The majority do not discern the difference between the two, between Law and force, thus they are destroyed for lack of knowledge. The kingdoms of this world use force, for there is no love in what they do. Whereas the kingdom of God uses Law, for love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8).

There is only one lawgiver (James 4:12). This one lawgiver is the Lord (Isaiah 33:22). Man does not have authority to make laws, but only the authority to make ‘ordinances’ which enforce Laws already in existence, which are the Laws of God. To obey the so-called ‘laws’ conjured up by the worldly governing authorities is to set aside the gospel of our Lord, and place oneself under a separate government, other than his.

The Constitution states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (First Amendment).

Do you realize that the Constitution allows everybody to freely worship any god they choose to? This is one of the greatest abominations to God.

Old Testament Israel had this same exact law also, and God would punish them whenever they enacted this law. Whenever people would worship other gods in his country, he would command them to tear down their temples and idols. If they refused, God would always punish his people. Even if there was a mixture of people worshipping the True God and people worshipping false gods, this was an abomination also, as his people are not to mix the two. God even commanded his people to go to neighboring countries of the heathen and tear down their temples and idols.

The truth is, the freedom of religion is an abomination to God. Man only has the "right" to worship Almighty God. To be free to worship any other god or partake of any other religion is an abomination to him, and violates the first Two Commandments:

Exodus 20:3-5, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:"

 

[Matthias]

God has never told me, a follower of Christ, to kill another follower of Christ.

Has God ever told you that it’s okay for followers of Jesus to kill one another, for any reason?

 

[Matthias]

"The state" is not a separate entity.

God and the state aren't the same entity. The state is an agent of God.

 

[doctrox]

God and the state aren't the same entity. The state is an agent of God.

While God can and does use the ungodly as his rod of correction, there is no separation between "church and state." There is only one Lawgiver (James 4:12). Anyone who attempts to impose otherwise, the same is a deceiver.

 

[Anchorite]

1) Self-defense (e.g. Jesus instructed his disciples: If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. - Luke 22:36).
2) Capital punishment (e.g. God's servants who "bear the sword" execute wrath on evildoers, effectively sanctioning capital punishment. - Romans 13:4).

Wrong. Jesus never told His disciples to defend themselves with weapons.

When Jesus said buy a sword, and the disciples replied they had two swords, Jesus said that was enough.

Thus, the swords were not for self defense or for killing those who attack. Two swords would not be nearly enough to combat the Roman soldiers who were coming to arrest Jesus.

In fact, when Peter used his sword to cut off someone’s ear, Jesus healed the ear and scolded Peter to put away his sword.

Jesus condemned weaponry by saying that all who use the sword will perish by the sword.

Those two swords were enough for Jesus to be reckoned among the transgressors. The Roman soldiers could see the swords and arrest Jesus for being an instigator of armed rebellion against the empire.

"Jesus reckoned among the transgressors" refers to the fulfillment of prophecy (Isaiah 53:12) where Jesus was treated, condemned, and executed as a common criminal, specifically by being crucified between two thieves. This act represents his deep identification with sinful humanity, substituting himself in the place of sinners to achieve atonement and reconciliation with God.