Biblical Mary

[Illuminator]

Just admit the sources for Mary being sinless and an ever virgin are extra-Biblical, not the Word of God and irrelevant to salvation, then we can move on.

You bypass Luke 1:28. Just admit the relatively recent flip flop, in defiance of the reformers and covered up by modernist Protestants, is a man made tradition, then we can move on.

 

[Wrangler]

You bypass Luke 1:28. Just admit the relatively recent flip flop, in defiance of the reformers and covered up by modernist Protestants, is a man made tradition, then we can move on.

No. It is a False Alternative that the original Reformers fully addressed all the man made traditions in violation of Scripture.

Predictable that you cannot admit the Marian doctrine is not found in Scripture. And no, Luke 1:28 does NOT explicitly teach what is the Marian doctrine.

 

[rockytopva]

Firstborn…. Hmmm….

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus. - Matthew 1

6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn. - Luke 2

 

[Ronald Nolette]

And yet, you FAILED to prove that from Scripture - didn't you, my Sola Scripturist friend?

I gave you mountains of evidence to the contrary - and all YOU brought to the table were angry, anti-Catholic opinions . . .

I did- you just refuse to believe it!

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

You simply do all you can to twist teh normal reading of Scrip-ture to desperately hold on to your false doctrines about that blessed woman.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Enmity between Devil and Eve.
Enmity between Devil and Eve's seed...
Eve's seed...
Cain, Abel, Seth.
Seth to Noah,
Noah to Abraham,
Abraham to David,
King David to Joseph, (who married Mary...ONE flesh of the House of David) to Jesus, Son of man.
Nothing to do with Mary's SEED...everything to do with Mary's husband Joseph of the Hous of David.

The Word of God Came down from Heaven, without His Reputation, in the likeness as a man, called the Son of man, called Jesus, Returned to Heaven. Sits in Heaven with His Reputation. Shall return to earth as the Son of Man, Jesus, with His Reputation; "Christ, the Power of God".

Too long, to little...boo hoo.

God is a Spirit.
A FORM is a Body.
God chose to take upon Himself a BODY He PREPARED...and the LOOK of the BODY He chose to PREPARE and take upon Himself....(WAS NOT a body LIKE an angel, WAS NOT a body LIKE an Animal, Was NOT a body LIKE a Fish)....expressly He took upon Himself....the BODY LIKE A SPECIFIC earthly man! (a Jew, a Servant of God) Sheesh Bible study 101!

Jews like SIGNS. Greeks like PHILOSOPHIES.
Catholics like RITUALS. I like Jesus' TRUTH.
Jesus' BODY came forth out from God IN Heaven and Returned to God IN Heaven.

Body's of Humans come forth out from the Earth and return to Earth. Mary was no exception.
So NARROW minded!
Sinless Son of man...was BORN of God
....Became He came forth OUT from God!
Sinless Son of God....was BORN of God.
....Because He came forth OUT from God!
Jews Converted IN Christ...were/are Born of God
.....Because they CONFESSED heartful Belief.
Gentiles Converted IN Christ..were /are Born of God.
....Because they CONFESSED heartful Belief.

Christian, Jew, Gentile, Catholic, Israeli .... are descriptions....None of those Words MEAN CONVERTED IN Chirst.

The Parallel Scripture is;
1 John 3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God[/U]

And the CONDITION OF WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD...
doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Jesus could not sin....because He was born of God.....WHEN HE CAME FORTH OUT FROM GOD.
Converted men can not sin....Because they are born of God....WHEN THEY BECOME CONVERTED IN CHRIST, Born of Gods Seed! (And NEVER does scripture teach....that Gods SEED fertilizes a Humans seed)...

LOL...DIVIDING the WORD OF TRUTH, REQUIRES CHERRY PICKING....otherwise you sit in the corner with a dunce hat, pretending everything you screech out APPLIES to EVERYONE....whether or not it is even in Scripture.

ONE thing you haven't learned about Scripture is that God DOESN'T make mistakes - and He DOESN'T depend on coincidence.

Eve is not the "Woman" being spoken of in Gen. 3:15 - Mary is.
Eve is the prototype - Mary is the fulfillment.
Eve tied the knot of sin by her disobedience.
Mary UNTIES that know by her obedience.

Even dying on the cross, Jesus looks over at His mother and refers to her as "Woman" as the fulfillment of the Gen. 3:15 prophecy is taking place on Calvary.

As for your asinine gibberish above in RED - NOTHING you can say and NO amount of Scriptural acrobatics can change the fact that the Spirit of God overshadowed Mary and she CONCEIVED in HER womb (Luke 1:31). God didn't "implant" a fetus in her womb - she CONCEIVED in her womb. HER seed crushed the head of the serpent on Calvary.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Firstborn…. Hmmm….

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus. - Matthew 1

6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn. - Luke 2

In Jewish culture - "firstborn" does NOT imply more children afterward.
It simply means, "the one who opened his mother's womb" (Exod. 13:12, 12, Luke 2:23).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Wrong again. Have the last word- I am through with you rjuvenile lying.

No - I think I've proven my point with you quite substantially . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I did- you just refuse to believe it!
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.
You simply do all you can to twist teh normal reading of Scrip-ture to desperately hold on to your false doctrines about that blessed woman.

Your problem is that you're a POOR Bible student and you try to pass yourself off as "knowledgeable".

The Greek (heos) and Hebrew (`ad) words for "until" do NOT imply a subsequent action (sorry for the big word).
There are MANY examples of this in Scripture - IF you just bothered to look . . .

Did Mary have other children after Jesus? As we have examined – the Bible does NOT support this idea. Let’s see what the Scriptures say about the use of the word, “until”.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Moses was buried by God in the valley of Moab after his death. Deut. 34:6 explicitly states: And he buried him in the valley of the land of Moab over against Phogor: and no man hath known of his sepulchre UNTIL this present day.
Sooooo – did they find his grave after this??

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44): For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool."'

Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool? The problem here is that the IGNORANT anti-Catholic attempts to apply 21st century English to Hebrew and Greek from a culture thousands of years ago.
COLOSSAL FAIL . . .

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Your problem is that you're a POOR Bible student and you try to pass yourself off as "knowledgeable".

The Greek (heos) and Hebrew (`ad) words for "until" do NOT imply a subsequent action (sorry for the big word).
There are MANY examples of this in Scripture - IF you just bothered to look . . .

Did Mary have other children after Jesus? As we have examined – the Bible does NOT support this idea. Let’s see what the Scriptures say about the use of the word, “until”.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Moses was buried by God in the valley of Moab after his death. Deut. 34:6 explicitly states: And he buried him in the valley of the land of Moab over against Phogor: and no man hath known of his sepulchre UNTIL this present day.
Sooooo – did they find his grave after this??

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44): For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool."'

Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool? The problem here is that the IGNORANT anti-Catholic attempts to apply 21st century English to Hebrew and Greek from a culture thousands of years ago.
COLOSSAL FAIL . . .

So prove Mary had no sex with Joseph then. You iuse minimal examples, especially from the OT.

but teh greek of Matt. 1 is heos and here is it s meaning

ἕως héōs, heh'-oce; of uncertain affinity; a conjunction, preposition and adverb of continuance, until (of time and place):—even (until, unto), (as) far (as), how long, (un-)til(-l), (hither-, un-, up) to, while(-s).

and for teh word "AD" (to) here is its partial meaning:

ad: as far as, even to, up to, until, while

its fuller usage is:

account (1), afar* (1), after (1), all the way (1), along (1), before (7), before* (3), beside* (1), beyond (2), beyond* (1), both* (1), completely* (1), either...or (1), equal (1), even (24), even including (1), exceedingly* (3), extremely* (1), far (131), far* (1), forever* (66), forevermore* (1), here* (2), how many* (2), including (1), like (2), little while* (1), long (23), long* (25), momentary* (1), never* (2), only (1), or (9), over (1), over there* (1), point (1), reaching (1), since* (1), so long (1), still* (1), there (1), threatened* (1), till (3), time (1), toward (1), unfathomable* (1), until (365), until the when (1), until* (43), utterly* (3), very (1), very* (2), violently* (1), when (1), when* (1), while (7), while i was still (1), within (1), without* (2), yet (1), yet* (1).
Original Word: עַד


As witrh many many words context determines meaning same with the greek!

As far as your comment the Lord: He is at the right hand of ?God now! He will leave that position to come back to earth and reign from here for the 1,000 years. YOur lack of understanding is astonishing!
well as I am not anticatholic, I cannot answer to your phony charge.

But I DO LOOK TO THE ANCIENT CULTURES, LINGUIISTIC USAGES ETC. THAT IS WEHY i KNOW YOU ARE STRAINING AT GNATS TO TRY TO GET US TO SWALLOW A CAMEL. MY LIBRARY IS STOCK FULL OF LINGIUOSTIC STIUDIES AS WELL AS CULTURAL STUDIES. I AMSURE FAR GREATER THAN YOURS.

NOW JUST SIMPLY PROVE THAT MARY DID NOT HAVE SEX WITH joseph IN CONTRADISTINCTION TO THEIR CULTURE, UPBRINGING AND LAW AND EXHORTATIONS FROM THE PSALMS. IT WAS CONISDERED SIN TO NOT HAVE SEX . SO THE BURDEN IS ONYOU. The normative normal usual reading of Matt. is that they refrained from sex UNTIL Jesus was born. YOu have to show that it means they didn't at all. Until is a word of change of circumstances with a change of condition!

As for MIchal-- it is better translated as she was barren even til the day of her death. Meaning her barrenness continued until death changed the circumstances.

As for the sepulcher, you should know it means that the sepulcher remains unknown even to this day! so it was a simply continuance.

Sad so dsad, you try to play grammatic tricks to prove th eunprovable.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Greek (heos) and Hebrew (`ad) words for "until" do NOT imply a subsequent action (sorry for the big word).
There are MANY examples of this in Scripture - IF you just bothered to look . . .

Three examples is not many and two of those three show a change of circumstance which produced a change in condition- Michal remained barren to the day of her death, and Jesus will sit at the right hand until He returns! Maybe you should go back and learn basic English grammar. Then you wouldn't attempt to pass on phony examples to all here.

But Heos (unto, until , as far as) and ad( all the definitions given ) unless modified by something- show that one condition continues UNTIL (heos, AD) athere is a change of event and then circumstances change.

Let me give you a first grade example to help you learn.

"Momma said we have to stay inside UNTIL it stops raining" Now this one doesn't mean you have to go outside, but it means you have to stay in this condition until something changes and allows a new cxondition. I use this one purposely, to give you the shot to prove Mary stayed sexless (so she had 7 immaculate conceptions then,( Jesus, James, Joses, Simon and Judah and at least 2 sisters).

Waiting for you rempirical evidence to show Mary denied her husband sex for as long as they both lived!

 

[rockytopva]

And knew her not till…. Hmmm….

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus. - Matthew 1

 

[Ronald Nolette]

And knew her not till…. Hmmm….

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus. - Matthew 1

Also considering that Matthew wrote this approx 20 years after Jesus ascended back to heaven, it is odd that God would inspire him to write "firstborn" which presupposes at least a second born.

 

[rockytopva]

Also considering that Matthew wrote this approx 20 years after Jesus ascended back to heaven, it is odd that God would inspire him to write "firstborn" which presupposes at least a second born.

But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. - Galatians 1:19

 

[rockytopva]

I can imagine Christ eager to get out in ministry and to leave his immediate family in the care of each other….

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! - Matthew 12

32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! - Mark 3

It would have been interesting to have grown up with the Christ Jesus. Unfortunately the scripture does not get into great detail on the family life.

But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. - Galatians 1:19

That would have been an interesting chat with James the Lord’s brother!

 

[Taken]

ONE thing you haven't learned about Scripture is that God DOESN'T make mistakes.

That juvenile comment has zero merit.

 

[BreadOfLife]

So prove Mary had no sex with Joseph then. You iuse minimal examples, especially from the OT.

but teh greek of Matt. 1 is heos and here is it s meaning

ἕως héōs, heh'-oce; of uncertain affinity; a conjunction, preposition and adverb of continuance, until (of time and place):—even (until, unto), (as) far (as), how long, (un-)til(-l), (hither-, un-, up) to, while(-s).

and for teh word "AD" (to) here is its partial meaning:

ad: as far as, even to, up to, until, while

its fuller usage is:

account (1), afar* (1), after (1), all the way (1), along (1), before (7), before* (3), beside* (1), beyond (2), beyond* (1), both* (1), completely* (1), either...or (1), equal (1), even (24), even including (1), exceedingly* (3), extremely* (1), far (131), far* (1), forever* (66), forevermore* (1), here* (2), how many* (2), including (1), like (2), little while* (1), long (23), long* (25), momentary* (1), never* (2), only (1), or (9), over (1), over there* (1), point (1), reaching (1), since* (1), so long (1), still* (1), there (1), threatened* (1), till (3), time (1), toward (1), unfathomable* (1), until (365), until the when (1), until* (43), utterly* (3), very (1), very* (2), violently* (1), when (1), when* (1), while (7), while i was still (1), within (1), without* (2), yet (1), yet* (1).
Original Word: עַד


As witrh many many words context determines meaning same with the greek!

As far as your comment the Lord: He is at the right hand of ?God now! He will leave that position to come back to earth and reign from here for the 1,000 years. YOur lack of understanding is astonishing!
well as I am not anticatholic, I cannot answer to your phony charge.

But I DO LOOK TO THE ANCIENT CULTURES, LINGUIISTIC USAGES ETC. THAT IS WEHY i KNOW YOU ARE STRAINING AT GNATS TO TRY TO GET US TO SWALLOW A CAMEL. MY LIBRARY IS STOCK FULL OF LINGIUOSTIC STIUDIES AS WELL AS CULTURAL STUDIES. I AMSURE FAR GREATER THAN YOURS.

NOW JUST SIMPLY PROVE THAT MARY DID NOT HAVE SEX WITH joseph IN CONTRADISTINCTION TO THEIR CULTURE, UPBRINGING AND LAW AND EXHORTATIONS FROM THE PSALMS. IT WAS CONISDERED SIN TO NOT HAVE SEX . SO THE BURDEN IS ONYOU. The normative normal usual reading of Matt. is that they refrained from sex UNTIL Jesus was born. YOu have to show that it means they didn't at all. Until is a word of change of circumstances with a change of condition!

As for MIchal-- it is better translated as she was barren even til the day of her death. Meaning her barrenness continued until death changed the circumstances.

As for the sepulcher, you should know it means that the sepulcher remains unknown even to this day! so it was a simply continuance.

Sad so dsad, you try to play grammatic tricks to prove th eunprovable.

That’s an idiotic challenge because you are placing the onus on ME to provide a negative – because YOU failed to prove your point Mary had “a lot of sex” with Joseph.
It’s as stupid as asking me to “prove” that Paul wasn’t taken up in a spaceship and probed.

As for the Scriptural examples that I gave you that use the word "Until" - your explanations are nothing more than a continuance of your denial. Those verses say what they say - whether YOU like it or not.
When you take the CONTEXT of everything said about Mary in Scripture - whether in the NT or as an OT Type - and NOT just Matt. 1:23 - it is crystal-clear that she had no other children than Jesus.

 

[amigo de christo]

And knew her not till…. Hmmm….

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus. - Matthew 1

IF what the church of darkness says is true . THEN the scripture would have read this ,
and never knew her at all . BUT IT SAYS TILL AFTER she brought forth her firstborn child .
Its obvious what it means . LEST ONE is and has been sucked under the R double C .
Not one mention of all this mary stuff is made in the scriptures , that rome makes .
She was a virgin who brought forth a child IS RIGHT . her staying a virgin after his birth is NOT TRUE .
OR it would have said so . it said and he knew her not , UNTIL , TILL , AFTER THE CHILD WAS BORN .

 

[amigo de christo]

Bread of death is no scholar of the bible . HE is only a scholar of ROME .
Yet accuses all others . Let no man , no woman , not even a child go in the direction of that catholic church .
And let me be put on record for saying it .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Three examples is not many and two of those three show a change of circumstance which produced a change in condition- Michal remained barren to the day of her death, and Jesus will sit at the right hand until He returns! Maybe you should go back and learn basic English grammar. Then you wouldn't attempt to pass on phony examples to all here.

But Heos (unto, until , as far as) and ad( all the definitions given ) unless modified by something- show that one condition continues UNTIL (heos, AD) athere is a change of event and then circumstances change.

Let me give you a first grade example to help you learn.

"Momma said we have to stay inside UNTIL it stops raining" Now this one doesn't mean you have to go outside, but it means you have to stay in this condition until something changes and allows a new cxondition. I use this one purposely, to give you the shot to prove Mary stayed sexless (so she had 7 immaculate conceptions then,( Jesus, James, Joses, Simon and Judah and at least 2 sisters).

Waiting for you rempirical evidence to show Mary denied her husband sex for as long as they both lived!

WOW.

What a childish understanding of grammar and linguistics.
In BOTH cases - the Hebrew 'ad and the Greek heos do NOT have one meaning and do NOT always connote a subsequent action.

As to James, Joses, etc. - I have already shown you on SEVERAL posts now that they were the children of the "other" Mary standing near the cross at the crucifixion.
a. She is called the "adelphe" (sister/relation) of Mary, mother of Jesus.
b. She is called the wife of Alphaeus/Clopas.
c. She is called the mother of James the Less (Apostle/"Brother" of Jesus, Gal. 1:19)

ONE more time, Einstein . . .
Matt. 27:56 says, "…among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph (Joses), and the mother of the sons of Zebedee".

Mark 15:40 states, "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome".

Finally, John 19:25 states, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister *adelphe), Mary the wife of Clopas (Alphaeus)*, and Mary Magdalene".

*Luke 6:15 - Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus (Clopas), Simon who was called the Zealot,


YOUR insistence that they are the children of Mary, mother of Jesus is not only Biblically bankrupt - it is a desperate and stupid. attempt to change the Word of God.
You are ILL-equipped to debate on just about EVERY subject that we have touched on. This is why I keep having to admonish you to do your homework . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

And knew her not till…. Hmmm….

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus. - Matthew 1

Yes, you already said that in post #1123 - and I already corrected you in post #1126 . . .

In Jewish culture - "firstborn" does NOT imply more children afterward.
It simply means, "the one who opened his mother's womb" (Exod. 13:12, 12, Luke 2:23).

As for the word "until" - that was also covered in post #1128 and others . . .