Biblical Mary

[Brakelite]

you want to count the men that The Church didn’t kill but were killed in battle defending the Truth.

The church was responsible for staying the wars, so they were responsible for the deaths in both sides yes

Also, I never said they were killed in the defense of the truth. I said what THEY believe to be the truth.

?

 

[Marymog]

The church was responsible for staying the wars, so they were responsible for the deaths in both sides yes

Ok,,,thats a twisted way of looking at it but....ok!!! Take away personal responsibility and all the other aforementioned factors that I mentioned and you are 100% right.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Hey Ronald,

Help me out here.....If you are anti-Catholic doctrine then wouldn’t that logically mean you are anti anyone who practices or teaches them?

Of course not! I can disagree, even heatedly with something someone believes without being anti them! What it means is that we cannot fellowship in that area. We have all heard love the sinner but hate the sin.

I can wish and pray well for someone even I am against everything they stand for!

I am sure Jesus is anti everything the flesh believes, but yet He so loves us! this is the model we are to emulate. I look at Catholics (as I once was) more as victims of bad teaching than enemies. they are ensnared in areas by false doctrine.

sorry for the delayed response, I just got home from 8 days in the hospital having aortic valve replacement surgery.

 

[Marymog]

Of course not! I can disagree, even heatedly with something someone believes without being anti them! What it means is that we cannot fellowship in that area. We have all heard love the sinner but hate the sin.

I can wish and pray well for someone even I am against everything they stand for!

I am sure Jesus is anti everything the flesh believes, but yet He so loves us! this is the model we are to emulate. I look at Catholics (as I once was) more as victims of bad teaching than enemies. they are ensnared in areas by false doctrine.

sorry for the delayed response, I just got home from 8 days in the hospital having aortic valve replacement surgery.

Hi Ronald,

OMG...I am so sorry you had to have that surgery. No need to apologize. I hope you recover well and I wish you the best and my prayers are with you.

It sounds like you believe that you are no longer “ensnared in areas by false doctrine”. I am curious..... How do you determine what a false doctrine is?

Mary

 

[Illuminator]

Hi Ronald,

OMG...I am so sorry you had to have that surgery. No need to apologize. I hope you recover well and I wish you the best and my prayers are with you.

It sounds like you believe that you are no longer “ensnared in areas by false doctrine”. I am curious..... How do you determine what a false doctrine is?

Mary

"doctrine" needs to be defined, because there are different meanings for the same word.
Our Sunday Visitor’s Catholic Encyclopedia defines “discipline” as an “instruction, system of teaching or of law, given under the authority of the Church [which] can be changed with the approval of proper authority, as opposed to doctrine, which is unchangeable” (334).

Scripture refers to doctrine as “the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 1:3). As mentioned before, doctrine can develop over time as the Church comes to understand it better—but it cannot change. No one—not even the pope—has the authority to change doctrine.

Is It a Doctrine or a Discipline? | Catholic Answers

further reading: Basic Tenets of Catholicism
Development of Doctrine: A Corruption of Biblical Teaching?

@Ronald Nolette, I had a quadruple bipass, so we are brothers in suffering. Get well soon!

 

[Mark51]

Biblical Mary:

Mother of God Lk 1:43

Immaculate conception (sinless) gen 3:15 enmity or total war none of satans works are found in Mary
Also Lk 1:28 full of grace lk 1:49 great things plural (immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus) Rev12:1 woman clothed with the sun. Immaculate purity

Lk 1:30 found favor with God (the salvation lost by Adam) mother of our salvation Lk 2:30

Perpetual Virgin Isa 7:14 matt 1:21
Lk 1:31-34

You have misunderstandings of the scriptures that you quoted.

At Luke 1:43, Mary was only a surrogate mother/vessel-not the “Mother of God.” Her genes are not in Jesus. This is likened to in vitro fertilization today. Mary’s cousin, Elizabeth, uttered those words. Compare 1 Kings 8:46; Romans 5:12; 6:23.

Luke 2:30 is not referring to Mary as our means of salvation.-1 Corinthians 15:45.

Genesis 3:15 is not referring to Mary. It is a prophecy referring to the woman as symbolic for Gods symbolic/figurative wife. The birth is of God’s heavenly organization/kingdom with Jesus crowned as king.-Revelation 1:1; 12:1-6.

Isaiah 7:14 does not mention a “perpetual virgin.” Mary was indeed a virgin even during her pregnancy with Jesus; however, after the birth of Jesus, she had relations/children with her husband.-Matthew 1:25; 15:55, 56.

 

[theefaith]

You have misunderstandings of the scriptures that you quoted.

At Luke 1:43, Mary was only a surrogate mother/vessel-not the “Mother of God.” Her genes are not in Jesus. This is likened to in vitro fertilization today. Mary’s cousin, Elizabeth, uttered those words. Compare 1 Kings 8:46; Romans 5:12; 6:23.

no Jesus is God and Mary is his mother

Luke 2:30 is not referring to Mary as our means of salvation.-1 Corinthians 15:45.
I never said “means” Jesus is our salvation Mary is his mother

Lk 1:28 before the incarnation Mary is full of grace, blessed, and the Lord is with Her, there is a mystical union between mother and child Lk 2:35

Genesis 3:15 is not referring to Mary. It is a prophecy referring to the woman as symbolic for Gods symbolic/figurative wife. The birth is of God’s heavenly organization/kingdom with Jesus crowned as king.-Revelation 1:1; 12:1-6.

the seed that crushes Satan is Jesus Mary is his mother same in rev 12:1

Isaiah 7:14 does not mention a “perpetual virgin.” Mary was indeed a virgin even during her pregnancy with Jesus; however, after the birth of Jesus, she had relations/children with her husband.-Matthew 1:25; 15:55, 56.

A Son singular and the Bible never says Mary had sex just the opposite Lk 1:34
Even the so called reformers defend the perpetual virginity of Mary
It really says more about who Jesus is
The divine son of God

Martin Luther

It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)

John Calvin

(On the Heretic Helvidius) Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s “brothers” are sometimes mentioned. (Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)

[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called “first-born”; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107)

Under the word “brethren” the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3])

John Wesley

‘I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin’ (‘Letter to a Roman Catholic’, The Works of Rev. John Wesley, vol 10, p. 81).

and the church has always defended this truth
St Augustine, Sermons 186.1 (early 5th century):

“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).

“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).

St Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III.28.3 (13th century):

"Without any hesitation we must abhor the error of Helvidius, who dared to assert that Christ's Mother, after His Birth, was carnally known by Joseph, and bore other children.

For, in the first place, this is derogatory to Christ's perfection: for as He is in His Godhead the Only-Begotten of the Father, being thus His Son in every respect perfect, so it was becoming that He should be the Only-begotten son of His Mother, as being her perfect offspring.

“Secondly, this error is an insult to the Holy Ghost, whose "shrine" was the virginal womb, wherein He had formed the flesh of Christ: wherefore it was unbecoming that it should be desecrated by intercourse with man.

“Thirdly, this is derogatory to the dignity and holiness of God's Mother: for thus she would seem to be most ungrateful, were she not content with such a Son; and were she, of her own accord, by carnal intercourse to forfeit that virginity which had been miraculously preserved in her.

“Fourthly, it would be tantamount to an imputation of extreme presumption in Joseph, to assume that he attempted to violate her whom by the angel's revelation he knew to have conceived by the Holy Ghost.

“We must therefore simply assert that the Mother of God, as she was a virgin in conceiving Him and a virgin in giving Him birth, did she remain a virgin ever afterwards."

The blessed Mary mother of God, is a perpetual virgin to the glory of God!

 

[Brakelite]

A Son singular and the Bible never says Mary had sex just the opposite Lk 1:34
Even the so called reformers defend the perpetual virginity of Mary
It really says more about who Jesus is
The divine son of God

Martin Luther

It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)

John Calvin

(On the Heretic Helvidius) Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s “brothers” are sometimes mentioned. (Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)

[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called “first-born”; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107)

Under the word “brethren” the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3])

John Wesley

‘I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin’ (‘Letter to a Roman Catholic’, The Works of Rev. John Wesley, vol 10, p. 81).

and the church has always defended this truth
St Augustine, Sermons 186.1 (early 5th century):

“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).

“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).

St Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III.28.3 (13th century):

"Without any hesitation we must abhor the error of Helvidius, who dared to assert that Christ's Mother, after His Birth, was carnally known by Joseph, and bore other children.

For, in the first place, this is derogatory to Christ's perfection: for as He is in His Godhead the Only-Begotten of the Father, being thus His Son in every respect perfect, so it was becoming that He should be the Only-begotten son of His Mother, as being her perfect offspring.

“Secondly, this error is an insult to the Holy Ghost, whose "shrine" was the virginal womb, wherein He had formed the flesh of Christ: wherefore it was unbecoming that it should be desecrated by intercourse with man.

“Thirdly, this is derogatory to the dignity and holiness of God's Mother: for thus she would seem to be most ungrateful, were she not content with such a Son; and were she, of her own accord, by carnal intercourse to forfeit that virginity which had been miraculously preserved in her.

“Fourthly, it would be tantamount to an imputation of extreme presumption in Joseph, to assume that he attempted to violate her whom by the angel's revelation he knew to have conceived by the Holy Ghost.

“We must therefore simply assert that the Mother of God, as she was a virgin in conceiving Him and a virgin in giving Him birth, did she remain a virgin ever afterwards."

The blessed Mary mother of God, is a perpetual virgin to the glory of God!

Can you direct me to the writings of Helvidius where he claims those statements against Mary. In other words, please prove he was a heretic.

 

[Illuminator]

Anti-Mary Christians busy themselves in covering up what the reformers taught about Mary because it doesn't fit their preconceived notions and man made traditions of the 18th century.

 

[Brakelite]

Anti-Mary Christians busy themselves in covering up what the reformers taught about Mary because it doesn't fit their preconceived notions and man made traditions of the 18th century.

Hahaha. You are so predictable. A real live woke Catholic. Someone disagrees with you... They're anti Mary. Lol. Next you'll be calling them Maryphobic. Haha

 

[theefaith]

Can you direct me to the writings of Helvidius where he claims those statements against Mary. In other words, please prove he was a heretic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvidius

[URL="https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm"]CHURCH FATHERS: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary (Jerome)[/URL]

 

[theefaith]

Hahaha. You are so predictable. A real live woke Catholic. Someone disagrees with you... They're anti Mary. Lol. Next you'll be calling them Maryphobic. Haha

well do you obey scripture and call her blessed

is she you’re mother? If you’re a disciple of Christ she must be

 

[Brakelite]

Helvidius - Wikipedia
CHURCH FATHERS: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary (Jerome)

No, I'm not taking Jerome's word for Helvidius' so called heresies. Helvidius rebuked Jerome on several occasions for using corrupt manuscripts in his vulgate translation, Jerome was a known ego driven mean and abusive person who threw down on anyone be disagreed with using invective and a caustic tongue in so doing, in other words, his character was majorly flawed.
I asked for proof from Helvidius own writings. Not those of his enemies.

 

[Brakelite]

well do you obey scripture and call her blessed

is she you’re mother? If you’re a disciple of Christ she must be

She was absolutely blessed. No doubt about that. However, the Catholic meaning of blessed is very different to how I understand it.
Is she my mother? No. Nor am I required to acknowledge her as such, except you force your extra-biblical Catholic dogma upon me.

 

[theefaith]

No, I'm not taking Jerome's word for Helvidius' so called heresies. Helvidius rebuked Jerome on several occasions for using corrupt manuscripts in his vulgate translation, Jerome was a known ego driven mean and abusive person who threw down on anyone be disagreed with using invective and a caustic tongue in so doing, in other words, his character was majorly flawed.
I asked for proof from Helvidius own writings. Not those of his enemies.

don’t hold back man

what you’re opinion of Saint John Chrysostom on so called anti-semitism?

google I guess but all I found was the church fathers refuting him

 

[theefaith]

She was absolutely blessed. No doubt about that. However, the Catholic meaning of blessed is very different to how I understand it.
Is she my mother? No. Nor am I required to acknowledge her as such, except you force your extra-biblical Catholic dogma upon me.

how about scripture

key word is disciple

Jesus is not speaking to John according to scripture but to the disciple standing there who represents all disciples

Behold thy mother!

What does Behold in scripture mean?

A marvelous thing!
A miraculous action!
A wonder!
An awe inspiring declaration!

Behold thy mother!

John 19:26-27
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith has he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

Jesus is not asking John to care for His mother, if so He would have said so, he is not even speaking to John, scripture says He is addressing the disciple, therefore it applies to all disciples.

Jesus is making Mary spiritual mother to all disciples! And all disciples take Her into thier home, And if the apostle John needs a spiritual mother so do we!

What is the family of God without a mother? The mother is the heart of the family! Jesus said I will not leave you orphans! Jn 14:18 He gave Mary to be the mother of one disciple then He does so for all disciples!

As eve was the mother of all the living in the first creation, gen 3:20 so Mary is the mother of all those who live in Christ and the new creation! Behold, I make all things new!

Rev 12:17 our spiritual mother!

Rachel is spiritual mother of Israel!
A type of Mary as spiritual mother of Christians!

The 12 sons of Jacob have 4 biological mothers, but Rachel is the spiritual mother of all Israel!

Matt 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are no more.

 

[theefaith]

She was absolutely blessed. No doubt about that. However, the Catholic meaning of blessed is very different to how I understand it.
Is she my mother? No. Nor am I required to acknowledge her as such, except you force your extra-biblical Catholic dogma upon me.

why was she blessed?

was she blessed before consenting to our salvation?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Hi Ronald,

OMG...I am so sorry you had to have that surgery. No need to apologize. I hope you recover well and I wish you the best and my prayers are with you.

It sounds like you believe that you are no longer “ensnared in areas by false doctrine”. I am curious..... How do you determine what a false doctrine is?

Mary

False doctrine is anything that goes against the clear teaching of Scripture. Am I no longer ensnared by nearly all of the false Catholic doctrine I believed in as a youth. do I have still false doctrine? Sure! I am still human and strill imperfect so I am convinced that I believe in dopctrines that are wrong (fasle) I am always willing to change if one can present a much stronger argument from Scripture than I hold in a n area. that is SCripture and not assumptions, drawing conclusions from assumptions, etc.

Well I wished I didn't have to have the surgery. but it turned into a wonderful oportunity to serve the Lord. I shared the gospel with 6 people, prayed with a PCA whowas really down, met some wonderful believers that we were able to fellowshiop, and had one nurse who is a sister spend hours asking me questions and sitting and learning. If it took replacing a heart valve to see those folks blessed, then I guess that was a small, but painful price to pay to see Jesus glorified.

 

[theefaith]

False doctrine is anything that goes against the clear teaching of Scripture. Am I no longer ensnared by nearly all of the false Catholic doctrine I believed in as a youth. do I have still false doctrine? Sure! I am still human and strill imperfect so I am convinced that I believe in dopctrines that are wrong (fasle) I am always willing to change if one can present a much stronger argument from Scripture than I hold in a n area. that is SCripture and not assumptions, drawing conclusions from assumptions, etc.

Well I wished I didn't have to have the surgery. but it turned into a wonderful oportunity to serve the Lord. I shared the gospel with 6 people, prayed with a PCA whowas really down, met some wonderful believers that we were able to fellowshiop, and had one nurse who is a sister spend hours asking me questions and sitting and learning. If it took replacing a heart valve to see those folks blessed, then I guess that was a small, but painful price to pay to see Jesus glorified.

so then what is the rule of faith for Christians?

what is the pillar and ground of truth?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

so then what is the rule of faith for Christians?

what is the pillar and ground of truth?

I would need something more specific to accurately answer.

Jesus is the pillar andground of teh truth and then the teachings of the apostles. The rule of faith depends on what you mean by rule. I do not wish ot misunderstand you.