amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Yeah , i have been reminding folks with what one of our friends wrote last night .
Biblical Mary
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
simple. I read the scriptures and compare what any man says in light of what the Word reads!
Nowhere in Scripture will you find any of the following dogmas held by the roman Catholic church:
1. Perpetual virginity of Mary.
2. she had no further children.
3. she is th equeen of heaven.
4. there is a place called purgatory or limbo
5. Salvation by works.
6. the need to pray repetitious prayers
7. penance for remission of sins.
8. etc.ertc.etc.
Some of these are derived by reinterpreting Scriptures and some from ancient pagan religions and their beliefs added to the church and justified by reinterpreting Scripture.
Let me state this unequivocally, I believe there is much truthy in roman Catholicism. I believe there are million of saved saints in Roman Catholicism. I believe that Roman Catholicism like all sects of Christendom has been infected with false doctrines in areas. Augustine did enormous harm to the pre-Catholic Church with his popularization of covenant theology and the allegorical interpretation of Scipture. It laid th efoundation for many cruel and insidious false doctrines ot be born. And many other sects follow that pernicioous way.
Constantine, by ending the official persecution of Christianity and by giving it an implied preferred status in the kingdom, did great harm and conceived what was to become th eroman Catholic Church that brought Europe into the dark ages.
There have been many honorable clergy in roman Catholicism, but there also has been many wolves in sheeps clothing there as well. I am not agains tCatholics, but against the false doctrines of Catholicism. If this thread were about Episcoplainism or Baptists, I would also speak against their false doctrines as well.
But this is a thread about unique Catholic doctrine so I expose it ot the lkight of Scripture. am I perfect? No! But like Luther, unless I ma sow by SCripture how I am wrong, I stand on Scripture aqnd not a churches opinion of SCripture! And if you know me, you would know that is true.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
The real problem with Bible alone, is that it gets in the way of teachings and traditions of men apart from God.
There are people who really, really like lies over truth, especially when they really really study them very very carefully.
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
Who would want to forbid men to marry, or to abstain from certain meats?
Those who reject the Bible is the sole source for traditions and doctrine and commandment of God.
Why go through all the psycho-babble of pretended honor toward Scripture, in order to reject Scripture? Just be open and honest about it, and say you don't want to be limited by Scripture, because you really like a bunch of other stuff outside Scripture.
There are people who really, really like lies over truth, especially when they really really study them very very carefully.
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
Who would want to forbid men to marry, or to abstain from certain meats?
Those who reject the Bible is the sole source for traditions and doctrine and commandment of God.
Why go through all the psycho-babble of pretended honor toward Scripture, in order to reject Scripture? Just be open and honest about it, and say you don't want to be limited by Scripture, because you really like a bunch of other stuff outside Scripture.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
depart from the faith means to reject the faith and the church and that’s means you and the Protestant revolt
Marymog
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Thanks Ronald.
Soooo YOU know what truths The Church got right and which ones they didn't? YOU know the false doctrines all churches have been infected with in Christendom? You stand on Scripture....not a churches opinion of Scripture. The Catholics, Episcepalions and Baptist have false doctrines but YOU don't?
Translation: Only YOUR opinion is right...everyone else is wrong. You admit you are not perfect, which means you could get some things wrong, but you also admit that you know that everyone else is wrong and you are right. Very confusing indeed!!!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well concernign Mary- yes I do knkow which ones they got wrong. Because the Word of God does not call Mary, a perpetual vigin, bearing no other children, the queen of heaven, co-redemptrix, co-mediatrix all of which the catholic church declares.
My opinion means nothing if it is not in agreement with gods Word!
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
And may i stand bold on this hill . I shall not enter into covenant with that which is false and of darkness .
Upon the solid stone let the lambs stand . Come yet out of her and partake not of her delicacies , for her water is stolen
her keys can not OPEN the DOOR , and her chambers lead down to hell . We must not partake of the buffet of the harlot .
Instead let us follow Christ .
Illuminator
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Sola scriptura is like going to a baseball game and suddenly all the players are umpires.
BreadOfLife
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The mere fact that Scripture DOESN'T mention Mary as having ANY other children should be your first clue . . .
Rev. 12:1 shows her in glory in wearing a crown of Twelve stars.
Time for a little Bible Lesson, Einstein . . .
In the Davidic Kingdom, the wife of the King was not the Queen – but rather, his MOTHER was elevated to that station.
“Queen Mother” was a royal title and an office which was bestowed upon the mothers of the Kings of Israel - those in the line of David.
Jesus Christ is the heir of David. He is the fulfillment of the covenant promises made to David in 2 Samuel 7:16; 23:5, and repeated to Mary in Luke 1:26-36. Mary’s Son rules from the Kingdom of the heavenly Jerusalem. It is Scripturally-fitting that His mother should enjoy the same role that other Davidic Queen mothers enjoyed.
1 Kings 2:19-20 tells us: So Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him about Adonijah; the king got up to meet her and bowed before her; he then sat down on his throne; a seat was brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down on his right.
Just as with the Davidic Kingdom, as Jesus is the King, Mary is the Queen Mother.
The Catholic Church doesn't teach that there is a pace called Purgatory or Limbo, Einstein.
Do your homework . . .
The Catholic Church doesn't teach in salvation by works, Einstein.
Do your homework . . .
The Catholic Church doesn't teach that we need to say repetitious prayers, Einstein.
Do your homework . . .
Our sins are remitted in the confessional, Einstein.
Do your homework . . .
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Straining a gnat to sawallow a camel. Scripture does mentiopn Jesus four half brothers and at least 2 half sisters.
So my Catholic Action bible is in error then?
purgatory
[ˈpərɡəˌtôrē]
NOUN
- (in Roman Catholic doctrine) a place or state of suffering inhabited by the souls of sinners who are expiating their sins before going to heaven.
"all her sins were forgiven and she would not need to go to Purgatory" ·
[more]
Limbo - Wikipedia
- Overview
- Limbo of the Patriarchs
- Limbo of Infants
- In other denominations and religions
- Cultural references
- See also
- External links
Sorry we had to show you!
What then are the ten prayers said between the our fathers when you count on your little beads? Ten in a row is repetitious, unless of course Rome has redefined what repitition means.
Well let us look at that Queen as you call her.
Revelation 12
King James Version
12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Isn't it amazing that this vision matches almost perfectly the vision Joseph had of Israel! consistency says both visions are of the nation of Israel. When Did Mary flee to the wilderness for 3 1/2 years to a place prepared by god
Then:
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
When did Satan persecute Mary?
Floods are symbolic of ARMIES- WHEN DID SATAN SEND AN ARMY AFTER MARY?
vSE 17---
According to you roman Catholic reinterpretation:
So the devil was angry with Mary, and went to make war with the remainder of her children!!!! WHOOPS!!! You lose!
BreadOfLife
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WRONG.
NOWHERE does Scripture say that Jesus had 4 “half-brothers” and 2 “half-sisters”. That is a complete LIE.
And NOWHERE does Scripture even imply that these relatives of Jesus are children of MARY, His mother.
Try again, Einstein . . .
No – that Bible isn’t wrong – YOU are.
YOUR original statement was:
“4. there is a place called purgatory or limbo”
Purgatory isn’t necessarily a PLACE – but a state of Final Purification.
In fact – that is what it is called in the Catechism of the Catholic Church: Final Purification of the Elect (CCC 1030).
This process is detailed in 1 Cor. 3:10-15 . . .
According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it,
for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ.
If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work.
If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.
As for “Limbo” – this has NEVER been a doctrine of the Church. It was ALWAYS just a was to reason the fate of unbaptized children because Scripture and Tradition are silent on the matter.
Do your HOMEWORK, Einstein . . .
Once again – YOU are wrong because YOU stupidly stated:
“6. the need to pray repetitious prayers”
We don’t “NEED” to pray repetitiously. However, we DO it because ut us Biblically-sound, my ignorant, ignorant friend . . .
In Matt. 26:44, Christ prayed the EXACT SAME PRAYER - THREE TIMES in the Garden of Gethsemane after the Last Supper.
In the Parable of the Determined Widow in Luke 18:7, Jesus emphatically states that God hears those who keep petitioning him in sincere faith: “Will not God then secure the rights of his chosen ones who call out to him day and night? Will he be slow to answer them? I tell you, he will see to it that justice is done for them speedily.”
In Luke 18:13, the tax collector kept beating his breast and praying, “God be merciful to me, a sinner.” This was pleasing to God.
We see in Rev. 4:8 that the angels pray the EXACT SAME PRAYER - day and night without ceasing in the presence of almighty God, “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty.”
Psalm 136 goes on for 26 verses in a row, repeating the EXACT SAME PRAYER “God's love endures forever”.
In Dan. 3:56-88 we read the eEXACT SAME PRAYER for 32 verses, which is “bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.”
So much for YOUR disapproval of repetitious prayer . . .
Once again, my Scripturally-BANKRUPT friend – it doesn’t start with Rev. 12:1.
Those of us who are educated understand that the Bible was NOT written in Chapter and Verse. That was ADDED by the Catholic Church during the Middle Ages.
The story of the “Woman clothed with the Sun” actually begins a chapter earlier with Rev. 11:19:
Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and THE ARK OF HIS COVENANT could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.
The very next verse is in Chapter 12 (Rev 12:1): A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
Verse 2 says: She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.
We know that this child is Jesus because in verse 4, we read: She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.
There is simply NO getting around the fact that the Woman here in Revelation 12 is Mary.
This polyvalent passage (sorry for the big word) refers to BOTH Mary AND Israel.[/QUOTE]
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Matthew 13:55-56
King James Version
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
YOu have not proven this means cousin as it does not in the NT for that word would be syngenes (kinfolk) or anepsis (cousin).
The only thing all of you have done is shown that in translating the OT from Hebrew/Aramaic in a few verses to Greek the word adelphos (or a derivative) was used to describe someone who was not an actual brother but just kinsmen. And I showed the reason why.
But for the NT, the only definition of adelphos (and derivatives ) is this:
- a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
- having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
- any fellow or man
- a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
- an associate in employment or office
- brethren in Christ
- his brothers by blood
- all men
- apostles
- his brothers by blood
- a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
so it might be a place? Is heaven and hell places or just concepts?
The very fact that Romanism believes in purgatory is tragic. what thjey teach is thatr the blood of Jesus and the intercession of Jesus is not enough to remove all sins, and men must suffer for some of their sins. That is a more greivous blasphemy than any thing we can debate about Mary.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Just a reminder:
Revelation 12
King James Version
12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
1. You believe the war in heaven took place while Mary was alive and on earth. When did it happen since it is history.
2. When did Satan make war with Mary. when and where did she flee into the wilderness where god fed her for 3 1/2 years. since according to you this is history
3. Who are the remnant of Mary's seed. Seed are offspring biblically. so it can't be Israel. It can't be the church since we are born of God and not Mary. so who are these offspring of Mary???
BreadOfLife
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And you continue to LIE.
WHY is that? WHY is it that you cannot just be honest??
ALL anti-Catholics have to lie because they don't have a Scriptural OR historical leg to stand on - and you're no different.
First of all - I've already educated you about the fact that we are the Catholic Church - not "Romanism". Calling us "Romanists" is just another cheap shot hurled at us by ignorant, Scripturally-bankrupt people like YOU . . .
Secondly - the Catholic Church DOES believe in the sufficiency of the Blood of Christ.
Ummmmm - WE are the ones who taught YOUR Protestant Fathers about it, Einstein.
Finally - 1 Cor. 3:10-15 describes what happened at our Judgement (the "Day"). It states explicitly that a if a person's work is burned up - that person will SUDDER LOSS but they WILLBE SAVED (1 Cor. 3:15).
- This CANNOT be Heaven because there is NO suffering in Heaven.
- This CANNOT be Hell because the person WILL BE saved.
- This is describing a THIRD state - the state of Final Purification.
Finally - NOWHERE do the Scriptures tell us that these names "Adelphoi" of Jesus are the children of Mary, His mother..
In FACT - as I have educated you repeatedly - they are the children of the OTHER Mary standing near the cross who is called the "Adelphe" of Mary, mother of Jesus and her husband, Clopas/Alphaeus.
The fact that you reject the Scriptures is on YOU . . .
BreadOfLife
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In other words - in the depths of your boundless ignorance - you have NO way of arguing against the AMPLE evidence I presented about Mary being the "Woman" of Rev. 12.
That's what I thought . . .
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
And you continue to bear false witness by lying through your teeth in calling me anti catholic.
REsorting to baseless ad-hominems is usually a sign one can no longer defend their position and must attack the man instead of debating civilly.
first- you need to get thicker skin man. You Romansits sure are touchy!
second- the catholic church does not believe in the sufficeincy of the blood. If it did it would not believe one can lose their salvation (which means Jesus did not pay for all your sins) or in purgatory I(which means ytou have to pay for th elittle sins)
To your finally- the judgment at 1 Cort. 3, happens after the rapture of believers. It is a different judgment altogether from the final judgment in Rev. 20.
Your second finally: Sorry but as I showed you adelphoii in th eNew Testament wnen referring to family can only mean brothers or sisters- not cousins nephews aunties uncles grandpa or grandma. All you did in your futile attempt to keep Jesus mother a virgin was show that other people in the circle of followers had those names and then try to force them on Jesus half brothers. Pathetically weak and desperate.
With teacher like you - no wonder the romanist church's is suffering so.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I do and did. You just look at that woman and with a romanist mindset make a huge assumptive leap to call her the Queen of heaven!
You presented no evidence other than declaring the woman is Mary.
But you failed to provide answers that concern the woman.
Revelation 12
King James Version
12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
1. You failed to say when satan sent an army (flood) after Mary.
2. You failed to say when Mary fled into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years
3. YOu failed to identify the earth which overcame the military assault on Mary.
4. You failed to identofy the remnant of the seed of Mary- She is supposed to have no seed after Jesus. They can't be Israel for that seed was long before Mary, and it can't be the church for we are the seed of God not Mary.
5. so Mary has some unidentified seed that you seem to have no clue who they are!
But from Gen. 37:
6 And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed:
7 For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.
8 And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.
9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
god is very consistent and a woman symbolically always has meant a religion or peoples. and the 12 stars are the twelve children of Israel. But I will giv eyou anothyer chance (if you can stop vomiting ad-hominems) to show why we should reject the symbol the bible gives us to define this woman and accept yours!
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
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