Biblical Mary

[Bruce Atkinson]

That neither says nor implies that Mary and Joseph had sex at any time.
Your quotes do not say those were the children of Mary.
Show me one verse that plainly says that Mary and Joseph had sex
Show me one verse that plainly says that Mary had children other than Jesus.

If Mary and Joseph didn't produce the half-brothers and half-sisters of Jesus, then Joseph was an adulterer! If that were true, then the Bible would clearly record where he got stoned to death for adultery, as demanded by Mosaic law!

 

[Bruce Atkinson]

And by the way @Marymog, still regarding Acts 15 council of Jerusalem church:

Why is the letter, which you seems to teach as catholic doctrine, only have this:

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Why only those things as being necessary? What happened to do not murder, steal, covet, bear false witness, make graven image of created things and beings?

Curious.

Any RCC apologist can clarify please? @theefaith and @Mungo perhaps? Thanks.

Tong
R4587

To get the reasoning behind Acts 15:28-29, one needs some background on the Jerusalem council.

It was held sometime after Paul had received direct teaching by Jesus while 3 years in the desert about his (Paul) going to the gentiles. I've read/heard that it likely happened sometime after 50 AD. One would have to be able to construct a better 'timeline' of Sauls' meeting Jesus while on the road to Damascus in Acts 9. It certainly wasn't soon after Pentecost, for example. Some Bible scholars place it sometime after 40 AD. After that, he went to synagogues only proclaiming Jesus IS the risen Messiah that had been crucified in Acts 9:18-22 -

Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Act 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
Act 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
Act 9:21 But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?
Act 9:22 But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ. (KJV)

How long between his meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus and his being led by the spirit to go into the desert? A year? A couple years? Paul writes that he did not go to Jerusalem to get the 'scoop' from the disciples. Instead, he was led by the spirit to go to the heathen...aka, the Gentiles (Jews considered Gentiles to be the scum of the world). It's clear he was in the Arabian desert for 3 years. Some theologians believe he was at Mount Sinai where Moses received the law. That would make sense, but is not backed up by scripture as far as I know.

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
Gal 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. (KJV)

That was Pauls FIRST trip to Jerusalem. It was not the meeting with the 'Jerusalem council'.

Of note is that the disciples in Jerusalem preached only that Jesus was the Messiah who was crucified and rose from the dead. The Gospel Paul preached of His death for our sins, burial, and resurrection on the 3rd day according to scripture was unknown to them as Paul preached that to the Gentiles!

The disciples were still following the 613 laws given by God through Moses as best as any good Jew could do. That including abstaining from unclean things including fowls of the air and animals with cloven hooves (pigs,etc). In short, everything had to be 'kosher', including how animals are killed, etc. The Temple in Jerusalem was still up and functioning as it always had with sacrifices, offerings, prayers, and everything else going on as usual. Judaism was still in full swing.

What was the most important (to us) outcome of the Council at Jerusalem? The determination that, indeed, God was going to Gentiles (often called 'the uncircumcised' in the New Testament) and that Paul and Barnabas were to continue going to them while the church in Jerusalem, including the disciples, would continue to practice Judaism as usual, believing only that Jesus was the promised Messiah and will come again as shown in Galations 2:1-9

Gal 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
Gal 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
Gal 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Gal 2:5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
Gal 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. (KJV)

Note especially verse 9.

In short, Acts 15:28-29 are nothing more than the Jewish disciples restating part of the Mosaic law that they followed, as did all Jews. It would take 100s of pages (scrolls) to restate all the Mosaic laws.

 

[Tong2020]

In short, Acts 15:28-29 are nothing more than the Jewish disciples restating part of the Mosaic law that they followed, as did all Jews. It would take 100s of pages (scrolls) to restate all the Mosaic laws.

Going by what is contained in the letter, and I quote:

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

<<<restating part of the Mosaic law that they followed>>>

Do they not follow the ten commandments? It would not take ten statements to state those. Their exclusion leads the reader to the intent and purpose of the letter made by the Jerusalem council.

And this I think should not be taken as to support the position that the church is establishing doctrines, new doctrines even.

The gospel had been preached by the apostles. And it is what the first believers have received and believed. The gospel is not about some set of instructions and commandments that they are to follow to get saved, but about what God had accomplished to save His people, through Jesus Christ.

Tong
R4608

 

[Mungo]

Agreed.
It's like Limbo.
Not an official teaching of the CC,,,but it was allowed to flourish.

It was a theological speculation.
Theologians are allowed to speculate as long as they do not contradict official Catholic doctrine.

Would you prefer to have the Church be very authoritarian and stamp on any speculation?

 

[Mungo]

Thank you for pointing me to #1858 in the Catechism. I finally downloaded all 1425 pages of the Catechism and scrolled down to read it.

I find it interesting that both Jesus and the Catechism omit 5 of the 10 commandments: No other Gods, Don't make graven images, Don't take the Lords' name in vain, Keep the Sabbath and Not to Covet. I'll take a guess that in the interest of dealing with the rich man expeditiously, He shortened the list as the rich man, being a Jew, knew all 10 commandments. So why does the Catechism only call those 5 'grave'? Sin is sin. Stealing your little sisters' candy bar, a car, or $1,000,000 from a bank is all stealing. I understand the Catechism where it says violence against parents is more grave than against a stranger. Does the same thinking differentiate between a relatives' candy, or car, versus that of a stranger?

The Catechism has a major section on the Ten Commandments - all of them.
In my paper copy that covers pages 445 - 542, 98 pages.

Why do I maintain that the only sin unto death/mortal sin is 'unbelief'? Simple. 1 John 1:5-10 makes it clear:

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (KJV)

If one does not believe that Jesus shed blood paid for ALL our sins, past, present and future, they are doomed to the eternal lake of fire. And if one believes Jesus paid the price in full, then keeping a 'clean slate' by confessing our sins to Him as soon as possible after committing them is necessary.

So we can murder, lie, worship false gods etc. and it doesn't affect our salvation?

 

[Mungo]

If Mary and Joseph didn't produce the half-brothers and half-sisters of Jesus, then Joseph was an adulterer! If that were true, then the Bible would clearly record where he got stoned to death for adultery, as demanded by Mosaic law!

Please explain why that would make Joseph an adulterer.

 

[Mungo]

@Mungo

After a man or husband knew his woman or wife, will she still be a virgin?

Adam knew his wife Eve. After that, whether Eve got pregnant or not, isn’t Eve no longer a virgin?

In my view, after the man knew his wife, the wife is no longer a virgin.

Did Joseph knew his wife Mary? Do you know of scriptures that speaks of that?

What can you say about that?

Thanks.

Tong
R4607

Scripture doesn't say Joseph "knew" Mary.

 

[Mungo]

Are you by that saying all along that you don’t believe that Mary is co-redeemer?

Are you by that saying all along that you don’t believe that Mary is fount of grace?

Which IOW she isn’t what catholics say she is in many catholic authored web sites?

Are you by that saying all along that you those catholic authored web sites speak lies? I wonder if there is one catholic web site that condemns such lies which misrepresent the RCC. Do you know of any?

Tong
R4606

Can you show me a Catholic web site that says Mary is co-redeemer or fount of all grace?
Ronald Nolette couldn't and he made the claim.

 

[GodsGrace]

It was a theological speculation.
Theologians are allowed to speculate as long as they do not contradict official Catholic doctrine.

Would you prefer to have the Church be very authoritarian and stamp on any speculation?

Mingo
Maybe hell and heaven are speculations too??
Theologians can have speculations , but this is why it's dangerous to leave biblical grounds,,,,Carholics have believed that Limbo really exists.

Augustine made this speculation almost necessary due to his teachings on original sin and the church accepted them at the time. Too horrible to believe a baby could end up in hell.

 

[Marymog]

So, in the letter of the Jerusalem council, please tell what is the doctrine that is taught. For you contended that the letter is new doctrine that settles an unsettled doctrine.

Thank you.

Tong
R4605

Circumcision and the issue of whether Gentile Christians should be required to follow all of the Jewish ritual purity laws were settled doctrinaly at the Council of Jerusalem.

After all, if these matters were already settled BEFORE the meeting then why would they meet? They were only settled AFTER the meeting.

Mary

 

[Tong2020]

Scripture doesn't say Joseph "knew" Mary.

At least you concede that in scriptures, when it says for example, Adam knew Eve, or Cain knew his wife, or a husband to know his wife, it is referring to the husband and wife sleeping together and have sexual intercourse, which tells us that the woman after, is no virgin any longer, whether she got pregnant after or not.

And Joseph did know Mary, though not until Mary gave birth to Jesus. Would you believe that?

Tong
R4611

 

[Mungo]

Mingo
Maybe hell and heaven are speculations too??

Why should they be speculations?

Theologians can have speculations , but this is why it's dangerous to leave biblical grounds,,,,Carholics have believed that Limbo really exists.

Where have they left biblical grounds?
Where does the Bible state what happens to a baby who dies unbaptised?

Augustine made this speculation almost necessary due to his teachings on original sin and the church accepted them at the time.

The Church did not accept Augustines views as official Church teaching.

Too horrible to believe a baby could end up in hell.

Limbo was not hell.

 

[Mungo]

At least you concede that in scriptures, when it says for example, Adam knew Eve, or Cain knew his wife, or a husband to know his wife, it is referring to the husband and wife sleeping together and have sexual intercourse, which tells us that the woman after, is no virgin any longer, whether she got pregnant after or not.

And Joseph did know Mary, though not until Mary gave birth to Jesus. Would you believe that?

Tong
R4611

No. All that scriptures says is that Mary and Joseph did not have sex before the birth of Jesus. It says nothing about what happened afterwards.
Anything more is your interpretation.
You seem to be assuming that 'until' must mean something changed. But that is not true.

 

[Tong2020]

Can you show me a Catholic web site that says Mary is co-redeemer or fount of all grace?
Ronald Nolette couldn't and he made the claim.

That really isn’t necessary. For my point is that you, as one who knows what RCC official doctrines are about Mary, don’t believe that Mary is co-redeemer nor is fount of grace, since it is not a doctrine of RCC since 2000 years ago. So that, if say any member of your church, more so a leader, a priest, would say and teach that Mary is co-redeemer and is fount of grace, you would be able to tell him that he is is preaching a doctrine that is not an official doctrine of the RCC and should not be doing such. It is disobedience to the RCC church leaders, to the Pope, and the bishops, the successors of the apostles. I guess you will not object that legitimate members and leaders even, teaching what is not official doctrine of RCC is bad and dangerous, and must be stopped by all means, if not, strongly and emphatically discouraged under pain of penalty of some sort of disciplinary action against such.

Tong
R4612

 

[theefaith]

I'm going to jump in on a couple of things. The first is Mary's being full of grace.

For starters, it would seem the Catholic Church 'invented' that Mary was 'full of grace'. In particular, except for the DRB, eg, Douay-Rheims (I think the Catholic Church stopped using that translation not long after Vatican II - I'm probably wrong as I'm was never a Catholic) Luke 1:28 has no mention of 'grace' whatsoever! I checked multiple bible translations that I have downloaded on e-Sword - KJV, ESV, NLT, NASB, NIV, ISV, NRSV-CE and DRB. Compare the differences - (by the way, e-Sword is free for downloading, most Bible translations are free)

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (KJV)
28 And he came to her and said, "Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!" (ESV)
28 Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!” (NLT)
28 And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you." (NASB)
28 The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." (NIV)
28 The angel came to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you!" (ISV)
28 And he came to her and said, 'Greetings, favoured one! The Lord is with you.' (NRSV-CE - Catholic Edition)
28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (DRB)

The Douay-Rheims uses 'grace' a 2nd time in verse 30.
30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. (DRB)

In doing a quick search of the 4 Gospel and Acts in e-Sword, most versions do not use 'grace' except in connection with Jesus and God. In particular, many versions 1st use of 'grace' in the Gospels is Luke 2:40 describing Jesus' childhood -

Luk 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. (KJV)

Other versions 1st use of 'grace' in the Gospels is in John 1:14 -
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (KJV)

It is JESUS that is full of grace! Draw your own conclusions about Mary's being filled with grace.

My second concern is tying ('manufactured') grace in Luke 1:28 to grace in Hebrews 4:16. The issue is taking a verse out of context. Read the preceding verses of Hebrews to get the context of verse 16 -

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (KJV)

It's clear that the grace in verse 16 speaks of Jesus IS the throne of grace...no reference whatsoever to Mary.

Remember, too, that Hebrews was written after Jesus ascended into Heaven to show Israel that Jesus WAS the Messiah they've been looking for and that FAITH in Him is the way to salvation. In the Gospels, Jesus was all about showing Israel directly that HE was the promised Messiah as he fulfilled all the prophecies about the Messiah in the Old Testament. The leaders simply couldn't believe that the lowly carpenters' son WAS the promised Messiah!

thanks for sharing

no Jesus sits at the right hand of the father on the great white throne rev. 20

All graces are from God merited by Christ and do not belong to Mary, only come thru Mary
Jn 1:16-17 Jesus came thru Mary
Jn 1:23

it is in the Bible

Luke 1:28
Wycliffe Bible

28 And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed bethou among women.

you will also find it in gen 3:15 and rev 12:1
See more below

 

[theefaith]

Old Testament type or example provided by God for our instruction!

Queen Esther

Queen Esther fair: est 2:7
Mary all fair: gen 3:15 Song of Solomon 4:12 Lk 1:28 rev 12:1

And the king loved Esther above all the women, and she obtained grace and favour in his sight more than all the virgins; est 2:17
Song of S. 4:2 love of God for Mary!
And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.
Lk 1:28 also Lk 1:30 1:42 1:45 1:48
Mary obtained grace and favor: Lk 1:28
Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Esther merits the graces of the king for the people. Est
Mary merits the graces we need but don’t deserve. Lk 1:30
Mother is the mother of our savior and our salvation! Lk 2:30 matt 1:21

They prayed to Esther to intercede for them before the king. As Mary intercedes for Christians before God.

Queen Esther found favor with the king: est 2:17
Mary found favor with God: Lk 1:30

Queen Esther saves her people interceding with the king: est 8:17
Mary provides the savior of the world!
Lk 2:10-11

Queen Esther receives half the kingdom!
Mary receives half the kingdom, Christ retains the kingdom of justice as just judge and Mary is the queen of grace & mercy! Hence the throne of grace is Mary’s throne! Heb 4:16
Depicted in genesis as the greater light that rules the day (those living in God’s will) and the lesser light that governs the night (those living in sin) Mary the mother of mercy and refuge of sinners!
Notice the sun is the source of all good and moon only reflects this goodness!
She directs all to Her divine son! Jn 2:5


Mary is created by God thru the immaculate conception worthy to receive grace, and the miraculous conception of the Holy Spirit, and the savior and our salvation!

Notice how Christ died for us!

Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

We were not worthy to die for our own salvation!

The same applies to grace, we are not worthy to receive grace, so God made Mary by the immaculate conception worthy to receive all grace for us, and worthy to miraculously conceive of the Holy Spirit and to give birth to our savior and worthy to receive our salvation!

Lk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Lk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

Lk 2:30 I have seen my salvation.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Lk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

God will not give grace to one who is not worthy or who cannot receive it, God will not give graces only to be lost or wasted but must be Efficacious!

All graces are merited by Christ (Jn 1:16-17 1 Jn 1:7) and given to men in the immaculate conception, (Lk 1:28 Lk 1:49 Heb 4:16 until we are able thru baptism (Jn 3:5) to receive them!

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Mary had this faith for us, (Lk 1:45 )and became the mother of our salvation!
(Lk 2:30)

Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Just as redemption is held in Christ so grace is held on Mary! Lk 1:28 full of grace Heb 4:16 the throne of grace Lk 1:30 found favor of our salvation

This applies to Mary not by nature but by the power and will of God!

A good tree!

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!

Queen of heaven
In the line of david’s kingdom the mother of the king is always queen!
Jesus is king Lk 1:32-33
And Jesus is the king of heaven & earth & all the angels & saints, so Mary is queen of heaven & earth & all the angels & saints!

A Royal greeting!

Lk 1:28 is the only place in the Bible where such a greeting takes place!
Mary is of the tribe of Judah and the royal house of David the king!

God himself is greeting Mary thru the instrument of the angel Gabriel!

This is a Royal greeting of the queen of heaven and earth! Queen of the angels and saints! Mary is of the house of king David!

In the line of king David the mother of the king is the queen, as Jesus Christ is the king of heaven and earth and the angels and saints so Mary is the queen of the same! Lk 1:32-33

Lk 1:28 And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.
29 And when she had heard, she was troubled in his word, and thought what manner salutation this was.
30 And the angel said to her, Dread thou not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

Mary is queen in rev 12:1 and heb 4:16
Mother of divine grace who is the throne of divine grace!

 

[theefaith]

Mary is our spiritual mother

Mary is the Mother of the living in Christ and the new creation!

Genesis 3:20
And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

John 19:26-27
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith has he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

Jesus is not just asking John to care for His mother, if so He would have said so.

Jesus is in the very least making Mary John’s spiritual mother! And if the apostle John needs a spiritual mother so do we!
What is the family of God without a mother? The mother is the heart of the family! Jesus said I will not leave you orphans! Jn 14:18 He proved Mary the mother of one disciple then He does so for all disciples!

As eve was the mother of all the living in the first creation, gen 3:20 so Mary is the mother of all those who live in Christ and the new creation!

Rev 12:17 our spiritual mother!

Rachel is spiritual mother of Israel!
A type of Mary as spiritual mother of Christians!

The 12 sons of Jacob have 4 biological mothers, but Rachel is the spiritual mother of all Israel!

Matt 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are no more.

 

[theefaith]

Ark of the new covenant!
The dwelling place of God!
God dwelt in Mary’s womb for 9 months, remember the ark was incorruptible wood covered with pure gold signifying Mary’s immaculate purity!
read exodus or any place in the Old Testament where something came into contact with God or was consecrated to the service of God it had to be pure and Holy!
In the ark was the word of God!
In Mary the new ark is the living Word!
In the ark was the mana!
In Mary was the bread come down from heaven! Jn 6
Bethlehem means house to of bread!

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, (Isa 7:14) and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Holy mother of God!

Lk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.



Biblical principle:
Anything Consecrated to God must be pure and used only for the purpose of serving God!

See exodus: the ark of the covenant, everything used in the temple etc.

Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”

Mary and her virginity are Consecrated to God in immaculate purity, the pure gold of divine love!

Mary was the dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone!


Can a man use the ark of the covenant for a common dinner table?

Then Joseph can in no any way use Mary for a common wife!

No mere man may enter where God conceived! Ez 44:2

Mary would not consent to God’s will and to receive the exalted dignity of the mother of God if it means violating her vow of perpetual virginity then why simply consent relations with Joseph!

That’s impossible!

Lk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

(This verse imply’s that Mary is consecrated to God alone! and has taken a vow of perpetual virginity! She was s willing to refuse even the exalted dignity of mother of God, the mother of our savior, and mother of all Christians if it means violating Her vow of perpetual virginity)

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

She consented to our salvation when she realized it would not violate her vow of perpetual virginity!

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So, in the letter of the Jerusalem council, please tell what is the doctrine that is taught. For you contended that the letter is new doctrine that settles an unsettled doctrine.

Thank you.

Circumcision and the issue of whether Gentile Christians should be required to follow all of the Jewish ritual purity laws were settled doctrinaly at the Council of Jerusalem.

After all, if these matters were already settled BEFORE the meeting then why would they meet? They were only settled AFTER the meeting.

Mary

23 They wrote this letter by them:

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,

To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

First, is that how RCC official doctrines come and look like and are made, you say?

Second, there isn’t any teaching that was laid out there regarding the matter of circumcision and the law, but only a denial of the church at Jerusalem as giving the commandment “You must be circumcised and keep the law”, to those the men who went out from them, who requires of the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia.

Tong
R4613

 

[theefaith]

I'm going to jump in on a couple of things. The first is Mary's being full of grace.

For starters, it would seem the Catholic Church 'invented' that Mary was 'full of grace'. In particular, except for the DRB, eg, Douay-Rheims (I think the Catholic Church stopped using that translation not long after Vatican II - I'm probably wrong as I'm was never a Catholic) Luke 1:28 has no mention of 'grace' whatsoever! I checked multiple bible translations that I have downloaded on e-Sword - KJV, ESV, NLT, NASB, NIV, ISV, NRSV-CE and DRB. Compare the differences - (by the way, e-Sword is free for downloading, most Bible translations are free)

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (KJV)
28 And he came to her and said, "Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!" (ESV)
28 Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!” (NLT)
28 And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you." (NASB)
28 The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." (NIV)
28 The angel came to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you!" (ISV)
28 And he came to her and said, 'Greetings, favoured one! The Lord is with you.' (NRSV-CE - Catholic Edition)
28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (DRB)

The Douay-Rheims uses 'grace' a 2nd time in verse 30.
30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. (DRB)

Could it be the Protestant translators mostly got it wrong, after all they are not apostles and have no authority from Christ

the deemed many books and chapters not to be scripture simply by the “tradyof men” ever read Daniel 13 the story of Susana and great faith in God? Most Protestants never heard of it, sad