God has loved His enemies....He sent His only begotten Son to die for them. No greater love than that. But that is a door that will be closed one day......as scripture clearly teaches. You believe that is unrighteous....well Steven that is your opinion but it changes nothing about what the scriptures do teach. So we better heed them.
Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Hobie
Well-Known Member
Yet there are those who know every letter in the book and have no understanding of what it says, to say nothing of wisdom and knowledge that comes from God..
That's another aspect.
We'll have to call it something other than Bibliolatry.
Any suggestions?
/
2Pe 3:3-7
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
You know what word comes from the Greek word ORGE? Ever been to an ORGY? I have and yes the "desire" and "violent passion" were very real. Just like the "desire" and "passion" of God are real for all who are sinners. Including ME and YOU.
SRN 3709 (31X) orge: prop. desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by anal.) violent passion (ire, or [justifiable]
abhorrence); by impl. punishment: wrath, anger, indignation, vengeance
But do you know how God is going to manifest His ORGE WRATH? HIS "desire" and "violent passion" on BELIEVERS and UNBELIEVERS? And Not in some ETERNAL HELL in the hereafter.
JOH 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath/orge of God abideth ON HIM.
ABIDES ON HIM WHEN? AS LONG AS YOU BELIEVETH NOT NOW!
So what is the purpose of GOD'S wrath/ORGE for man? Is it manifest HERE AND NOW ABIDING ON YOU NOW.
Now read every verse below with the lenses of those who serve a God you obviously don't know as well at you've been 'led to believe' in.
ROM 1:18 For the wrath/orge of God is revealed FROM heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, WHO HOLD the truth in unrighteousness;
BRINGS WRATH NOW OR HEREAFTER? DO YOU EVER PRACTICE UNRIGHTEOUSNESS?
ROM 4:15 for the Law brings about wrath/orge, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
IS THERE LAW NOW?
ROM 5:9 Much more then, having NOW been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
ARE WE FREE FROM WRATH NOW? YOU ARE IF YOU ARE WALKING IN 'HIS LIFE' AND NOT 'IN SIN'.
EPH 4:31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
WRITTEN TO CHRISTIANS NOW?
I AM saved from his WRATH when I do not sin in this life. If I do sin, I guarnan 'GOD DAMMED' te you, that the wrath of God's judgment WILL be ON ME and ON YOU today. And it will be there for an eternal purpose. And that purpose won't be to TORTURE you ETERNALLY for no "DAMMED" reason, in the hereafter. It will be to make you hopefully sick and tired of how sin makes you feel.
NOW find me one verse that proves WRATH is for the hereafter?
It is appointed unto man but once to die.........and THEN the judgment.
Agree there is wrath now and that the whole world lies under it. Suffering and death are having their moment right now.....the wages of sin. But we are also warned of a future day of wrath and perdition of the ungodly. We see how it ended up for the rich man as opposed to poor Lazarus AFTER they died. And there is a reason why we are told not to envy the wicked when they prosper..........see how many wicked do tend to prosper in this world and the filthy rich tend to be well, filthy unfortunately....the debauched courts of "kings" are pretty much common knowledge now. And how do you see the 2 Peter 3 passage that I posted to Steven?
And for the third or fourth time I don't believe in eternal torment, at least not for humans. I consider that it will be a second and permanent DEATH in the end for those who are not in the Lamb's book of life.......destruction......but also probably torment at least to an extent and for a time that is just and appropriate to the sins one committed during their lifetime. The rich man was in torment. The bible speaks of weeping and gnashing of teeth. But God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, and nor do I. It just is what it is and God cannot deny Himself....though He is longsuffering now....He is a consuming fire..........so that is why the gospel must be preached. To warn and try to save as many as possible from the inevitable that is coming....day of judgment and perdition.
Maybe you can tell me what is the difference between salvation and perdition? To inherit eternal life.... or to not inherit eternal life and perish? It's one or the other, no? And the idea of inheriting it....tells me there is a condition attached to it. One has to be in the family of God to inherit.....it must be WILLED to us. It is clear in scripture that not all will inherit eternal life. So what happens to those who don't inherit? It's either eternal life or no eternal life. Immortality or mortality. I mean, what else can all those terms mean? It was the serpent at the tree that accused God of lying essentially......by telling Adam and Eve they will NOT surely DIE if they disobey God.
Just to be clear. I'm not scoffing at God.
I'm scoffing at you. - LOL
So, unless you claim to be God...
/
What is being scoffed is the idea of God pouring out His wrath and judging. Are you going to address the scripture I posted?
LOL
What comes after the judgment?
You assume it automatically means punishment.
Will not the saints be judged as well?
There is a progression with options.
Judgement> Reward and/or Sentencing> Mercy and/or Correction> Restoration> Ultimate Redemption
/ @Hillsage
No, it's your definition of wrath that I disagree with. (scoff at)
And that's backwards anyway.
Do you believe God pours out his wrath before judging?
You probably believe that God's wrath pouring out is judging.
You need to get your ducks in a row on this subject.
I thought I did.
Seemed your point was to judge me. (scoffer)
(which engaged "... lest ye be judged.")
/
I don’t have all day to ferret out every scripture on what judgment means, but I think these should be enough to tie judgment with wrath…against those who aren’t found in the book of life. Yes we will all be judged but the difference is not all will be judged with mercy……there will be those who will be judged with wrath, to the fullest extent of the Law I think we could accurately say.
Mar 6:11
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Luk 10:14
But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
Rom 1:32
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Rom 2:5
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Heb 10:27
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Jas 2:13
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
1Pe 4:16-18
Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
2Pe 2:9
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished
2Pe 3:7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Rev 17:1
And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
Rev 18:10
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
(She was tormented and burned with fire and destroyed, no? That was the judgment she reaped.)
Wrath would only be applicable for Israel in the time when Jesus returned -the wrath of God would come upon them - which was the with the use of the Roman army, who laid to waste their world as they knew and burnt down the temple to the ground.
Again, you lose the debate over definitions.
Do you not know how to use the tools at our disposal?
God restored the fortunes of Sodom and Gomorrha.
That's right. Sodom and Gomorrha RESTORED. = the wrath of God.
Knowing the judgment of God? To bad you aren't included in that.
The day of wrath? What do you suppose that means? How long is a day?
The day of wrath and revelation? What do you suppose that means?
What sort of revelation?
LOL
Surprised you quoted this one.
Mercy rejoices AGAINST judgment.
The righteous shall scarcely be saved? Where does that leave you?
Judgment begins with the house of God. How will you escape?
Are you obeying the gospel of God? What does that EVEN mean? - LOL
Define punished.
Reserved unto fire? What sort of fire?
The kind that burns wood hay and stubble?
A refining fire?
Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.
Define judgment.
/ @Hillsage
Are you the guy who suggest because I love Muslims, I am going onwards to hell? Or that I should hate an abhor a whole group of people?
Mercy triumphs over judgment for those who receive that mercy, yes. The gospel is the remedy for judgment. But sadly not all will receive the gospel, so they don't receive mercy....they will be judged without mercy. Better read that verse again.
Anyhow, told you I don't want to play 20 questions, thanks. But feel free to make your points.
Though here are a couple of questions for you, since you like questions....Why did Paul write in Hebrews that he had more to say to those who were still in need of milk, but that they couldn't BEAR it now? Because the meatier things in God's word are not very palatable, they are the harder facts of life that are for the grown ups...they are hard to bear, while milk for babies and small children is much easier to accept. Why do we need to ENDURE sound doctrine? Because it isn't easy to endure. Well, at least I answered my questions for you.
You have yet to show me any scripture that teaches judgment/wrath isn't the end of the road.
Mercy is granted, not taken.
The saints won't be judged? You still need to work on definitions.
What about the wood, hay and stubble?
Wrong again. Those who show no mercy, whether believers or not, will receive no mercy.
Better read that verse again. - LOL
Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
Do I want to play 20 questions? - LOLThough here are a couple of questions for you, since you like questions....Why did Paul write in Hebrews that he had more to say to those who were still in need of milk, but that they couldn't BEAR it now? Because the meatier things in God's word are not very palatable, they are the harder facts of life that are for the grown ups...they are hard to bear, while milk for babies and small children is much easier to accept. Why do we need to ENDURE sound doctrine? Because it isn't easy to endure. Well, at least I answered my questions for you.
So, you believe that spiritual meat is the brutal realities of an angry judgmental God? - LOL
More of your character assassination of God. Do you actually think he appreciates that?
/
What's fascinating is that the "scoffers" of the Last Days are always "people who disagree with ME."
What I always want to ask the self-righteous Bibliolatrists is, "Has it ever occurred to you that the false prophets and false teachers of the Last Days might be YOU?" Nah, I didn't think so - but it has certainly occurred to me.
What I always want to ask the self-righteous Bibliolatrists is, "Has it ever occurred to you that the false prophets and false teachers of the Last Days might be YOU?" Nah, I didn't think so - but it has certainly occurred to me.
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
And the wages of sin being death is still the case for CHRISTIANS to this day. That's why all have PHYSICALLY died and gone to HADES/HELL. This verse is talking to ALL born again believers IMO. Including you, if you are. I don't know. My testimony is in my
1CO 15:55 O death/thantos, where is thy sting? O grave/HADES, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
Physical death was the death SENTENCE given in the Garden as the ultimate consequence for sin. The verse above proves that is still the truth, no matter how much the nominal teaching is immediate 'spiritual death' is what happened in the Garden.
The "future day of wrath" will have the same purpose as the present day of wrath. I already supported that POV with scripture. And asked you for ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE to refute my position. I DON'T SEE IT IN YOUR POST. So.....if you aren't going to answer my questions quit asking me yours. I feel that is just a parrying JW ploy you have been taught to detour and win arguments IMO.
I do keep forgetting you are of the same 'faith' as my sister in law WAS before she met me and marrying my unsaved Roman Catholic brother.
Please pay attention The Lamb's book of LIFE is not the Lamb's book of DESTRUCTION. Every ones name is in that book, upon accepting Jesus and being spirit/soul/body saved. That is, until you sin for the first time and you aren't in that IMMORTAL LIFE condition anymore and you die...physically. I think it's pretty dumb to say you HAVE eternal life after getting born again, only to die and be buried just like Adam and Eve.
"Just and appropriate", you say....to what end? Negating the fact that Jesus paid the total price for all 2,000 years ago? Now you think God requires you to die for those same sins???? What for? Did Jesus die for ALL, or not. You don't accept Jesus to BE forgiven. You accept Jesus to FEEL forgiven....which lasts from the moment your were first saved until you commit your next sin. ONE sin leads to death NOT LIFE. Heathens and Christians all paying the same dirt and ashes beginning.
LUK 16:23 And in hell/HADES/grave he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
This passage is talking about HADES and not the lake of fire which "death and Hades" are both going to be cast in to. Rev 20:14
PSA 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be SILENT in the grave.
Psalms 115:17 The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into silence.
Their torment is not being able to yet give praise to the LORD, until their time comes from a pure heart. A heart purified by FIRE, just like were were baptized with holy ghost and FIRE.
MAR 9:49 For every one will be salted with fire.
How tormented have YOU BEEN with the FIRE? Did it feel like the TORTURING FIRE of HELL where nothing is CONSUMED. Like you said "OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE."...correct so what's being CONSUMED LIZ? My God is consuming ALL that can not exist in HIS KINGDOM.
And the consuming fire of God made Lazarus request WHAT? That his brothers get their lives straight here and now....sooner and not later.
What exactly is inheriting ETERNAL LIFE?
JOH 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
So why are you waiting to die and go to your grave so you can be raised from the DEAD and have ETERNAL LIFE. Who's your savior? Jesus who died or are you your savior when you die, go to HELL/grave and pay the price for sin?
You don't really have a clue IMO. I've had these discussions with your best JW's here, and they don't get it either.
RSV ROM 2:7* to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
YLT ROM 2:7 to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility - life age-during;
What's the difference between "immortality/incorruptibility" and "eternal life" and "life age-during". Why in RSV does IMMORTALITY precede getting "ETERNAL LIFE"?
PLease don't post so much. You're just like AUNTY you post so much wrong thinking that it takes a book to answer, and you never answer my questions as well as you think you do.
I hate writing this much. You won't....no you can't respond well enough for anyone to really get anything out of what you wrote and what I've had to increase to respond. It's why I typically won't continue dialoguing with you or others who do so. It's just not productive IMO.
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