Shabbat shalom, Mark S.
Hi Retrobyter,
That's interesting! You are dividing the creation of the light itself from the source of that light.
So when it says, "God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness," you are thinking that this means the light only, not the celestial bodies that emmanate the light, is that correct?
As far as the Creation of the Heavens (the Skies) and the Earth, yes; however, don't forget that Mosheh (Moses) quickly added, "He made the stars also," per inspiration. God did NOT create the stars and then wait around for millions of years for the light to get here. I believe that He created BOTH the "source" of the light and the light itself already
en route to earth's surface. Thus, the light was already IN the atmosphere of our planet the moment He created it. He didn't have to wait 8 1/3 minutes for the light to get here from the sun either.
Remember: He created animals full grown instantaneously. He created the man's body fully mature. Why shouldn't He create processes fully integrated?
I explained earlier about the Greek:
ouranos = "heaven"; the sky; the atmosphere
ouranoi = "heavens"; the skies; the atmospheric gases
ouranios = "heavenly"; of the sky; of the atmosphere
ouranothen = "from heaven"; from the sky; from the atmosphere
mesouraneema = "in the midst of heaven"; in the middle of the sky; in the middle of the atmosphere
epouranios = "heavenly/celestial"; from above the sky; from above the atmosphere
In the Hebrew, we only have two such forms to consider:
hashaamayim = "the heavens"; the skies; the atmospheric expanse of gases
shmeey hashaamayim = "the heaven of heavens"; the sky of the skies; the expanse of the atmospheric expanse of gases
Neh 9:6
6 Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven (hashaamayim), the heaven of heavens (shmeey hashaamayim), with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.
KJV
1 Kings 8:27
27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
KJV
2 Chron 2:6
6 But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?
KJV
2 Chron 6:18
18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!
KJV
When one expands the gases of our atmosphere to their most rarified limits, we have outer space. The air thins gradually but consistently as one gets farther and farther away from the surface of the earth until it is empty space.
So then you are restricting the meaning of "the heavens" to the actual atmosphere only.
No, not entirely; however, from our perspective of THIS ground and THIS atmosphere, Mosheh's (Moses') record of the Creation dealt with the Creation of what we can see and sense, not with areas of the universe we cannot experience first-hand.
If we took away the sun itself, and the moon itself, their light would remain?
Sure, it would ... for a while. If the moon disappeared, it would take less than 1.5 seconds for its light to disappear, too. If the sun disappeared, the light would last for 8 1/3 minutes before it disappeared. However, if you took away the actual "Dog Star" (Sirius), our closest neighboring star, it's light would continue for about four and a half years! Some galaxies, such as the Andromeda Galaxy, could disappear and its light would remain for 2.5 million years (theoretically)!
If it is the light itself that that is set in the heavens to rule over the day and over the night, this is a light without a separate source, not from a star. But then it is quickly replaced with the light that comes from the newly created star, though not what was just described as being created, that was just the light. That seems like a very awkward interpretation to me. When you say "photons from the sun" and so forth, they wouldn't have actually been from the sun, and if that's how it was all happening, you don't even need the sun, just the light streaming through.
Right. That is a technicality. I probably should have said "photons AS THOUGH from the sun." However, the sun and its light are a UNIT. The moon and its reflected light from the sun are another UNIT. They go together and when God created each one, He created each UNIT - each SYSTEM! Although He created the "greater light" system initially with photonic energy that did NOT originate from the sun, 8-1/3 minutes later, it was replaced by photonic energy that DID originate from the sun. I strongly believe and am convinced that God created the laws of physics while He was creating this physical universe, and He created it a self-sustaining system so that it would continue long after the creative act. Examples of this can be found in the photosynthesis-respiration-transpiration cycle in plant life and animal life and the post-Flood hydrologic cycle of evaporation, condensation, and precipitation. Therefore, He DID need the sun and the moon to perpetuate the light from them, although initially they were created separately. All a photon is is a wave packet of energy that exhibits characteristics of a particle, as well. The waves are "electromagnetic radiation." This is defined as the alternating, collapsing electric fields and magnetic fields that continually generate each other. A collapsing electric field generates a magnetic field at right angles to the electric field. A collapsing magnetic field generates an electric field at right angles to the magnetic field. This alternation happens quickly enough to travel through space at 186,000 miles per second! The source could be anything that could generate an electric field (or of a magnetic field) of the size and shape needed to begin the cycle. Of course, this would have to happen with the full spectra of light from cosmic rays to radio waves at the intensity and magnitude necessary, but I would think God knows precisely how to generate such fields without our help or advice, don't you? "God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5b)!
Hebrew has words for the "sun" and the "moon." They are "
shemesh" and "
yaareeach," respectively, but those words are never used in Genesis 1 or 2. Why not?
As far as no rain until the flood, yes, I agree with you. But the way I read the creation, it really seems to me that God created not just the light in our atmosphere (there was already light and darkness), but that He created the celestial bodies, and put them in the heavens.
In English, they are the same word, but in Hebrew they are not: In Genesis 1:3, the word translated "light" is "
'owr," spelled alef-cholam-with-vav-reish, or "
ha'owr" in 1:4 with the definite article, "the light." In Genesis 1:14 the word is "
m'orot," spelled, mem-shma-alef-cholem-reish-cholem-tav, the feminine plural with the inseparable preposition, the mem- prefix, meaning "from!" Thus, they are those things that are "from-light." Genesis 1:16 specifies "
ham'owr hagadol," "the-from-light the-great," and "
ham`owr haqaaTon," "the-from-light the-abbreviated." There's a technical difference that doesn't translate well into English.
There's a parallelism in the Creation account of Genesis 1: The three environments for the inhabitants were created on days 1, 2, and 3, and the inhabitants for each environment were created on days 4, 5, and 6. On day 1, God created the environment of light; on day 4, God created the individual "lamps" that focused that light. On day 2, God created the waters and the expanse between the waters, called "
hashaamayim" (same word as in verse 1) or "the sky" - the air between the waters; on day 5, God created the sea creatures and the birds of the air. On day 3, God created the dry land and plants; and on day 6, God created the animals and man.
So then the earth is the terrestrial, the heavens are the celestial, and all of this was God's creation, the heavens and the earth, created in 6 days.
Love in Christ,
Mark
No. That's not what "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" means. It is not talking about "the terrestrial and the celestial," nor is it talking about "the material and immaterial" or "the physical and the spiritual." It is simply talking about the creation of OUR environment. It is talking about "the solid-liquid portions of the physical and the gaseous portion of the physical." It's ALL physical. The same word for "heavens" (or "heaven") in verse 1 is the same word used in verse 9 (day 2 when the atmosphere was created), and the same word for "earth" in verse 1 is the same word used in verse 10 (day 3 when the dry land was created).
It is common in Hebrew literature to begin an account with a summary of what is to follow, and Genesis 1:1 follows that tradition.
Hope this helps.
Shabbat shalom, Mark S., again.
P.S. - I should also mention that the word for "stars" is "
kokhaviym," which means "round-objects." It is NOT a form of the word for "light" at all. Thus, it is the ONLY word that is directly talking about the BODIES themselves. It's almost like an after-thought the way it's presented, "and he made the stars also," as if to say, "and - oh! - by the way, He made the actual, physical stars, as well!"