Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you ever converse without invoking satan on somebody head ?

You claim anti bible rhetoric WITH NO VERSES.
You claim the rapture is from the wrath.
Everybody belives it.
HELLO...the pretrib rapture is from the wrath

Yes, everyone believes that the result of the rapture is to be taken away from Christ's wrath. That would be called pre-wrath or pre-final wrath or pre-day of Christ's return wrath. Whatever you want to call it. You can call it pretrib if you define the trib as Christ's wrath on the day He returns. So, what are you arguing about again? What needs to be discussed is what happens to those who are not caught up (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air when He comes from heaven? What does Matthew 24:35-41 and Luke 17:26-37 indicate about that? It talks about them all being killed. So, address THAT.

 

[PinSeeker]

Nope. It is what it is.

Strawman argument: a logical fallacy in which someone misrepresents an opponent’s position to make it easier to attack.

I'm not misrepresenting your position(s), and never have; I have acknowledged it every time; it is what it is... they are what they are. All I have ever done is point out the unavoidable ~ and usually unintended ~ implication(s) of what you believe. The record is clear.

We are best buddies now.

Absolutely not. <LOL> One day we will be, though... <smile>

And then you ruin it by calling me a liar.

I did not. A liar, to me, SI, is someone who habitually lies. And I don't think you do that.

But you allow that it could just be self deception instead. How nice!

Oh, yes, so you're acknowledging that I was clear in saying I'm not sure why you're saying something that is untrue. I mean, good for you, but that necessarily means that I'm not sure if you're lying or not, which is what I said. What makes you like this, SI?

You say after accusing me of lying.

Another false accusation; see above.

Whatever, buddy.

Well, just whatever. <grin>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nope. It is what it is.

Strawman argument: a logical fallacy in which someone misrepresents an opponent’s position to make it easier to attack.

I'm not misrepresenting your position(s), and never have;

Yes, you are. You said "the effect of what you Arminians say is to diminish God's glory,". That is absolutely false and I explained why by showing how I see it. So, you are indeed making a strawman argument and I have to wonder why. Could it be because you are unable to make any other kind of argument against my beliefs? I think so.

I have acknowledged it every time; it is what it is... they are what they are. All I have ever done is point out the unavoidable ~ and usually unintended ~ implication(s) of what you believe. The record is clear.

Yes, the record is clear that you have no idea of what you're talking about. That record has been clear for a long time already.

Absolutely not. <LOL> One day we will be, though... <smile>

That's hard to imagine. Do you have scripture to back that up? LOL.

I did not. A liar, to me, SI, is someone who habitually lies. And I don't think you do that.

You said I lied and that itself was a lie. But, you added the possibility that I might have just deceived myself. Thanks for adding that. Wow. What a guy you are. But, it's clear to me you just added that part insincerely and you think I lied. And you know it.

Oh, yes, so you're acknowledging that I was clear in saying I'm not sure why you're saying something that is untrue. I mean, good for you, but that necessarily means that I'm not sure if you're lying or not, which is what I said. What makes you like this, SI?

What makes you the way you are? Predestination, right? I was predestined to annoy you and you were predestined to annoy me. If your doctrine is true, that is. But, it's not. So, it's just all a mystery. Wait, that would support your doctrine, too. That can't be it. It's just free will, dude. You will never understand anything until you accept that we all have free will. LOL!

Another false accusation; see above.

Says the false accuser.

Well, just whatever. <grin>

Agree. <whatever>

 

[Truth7t7]

Honest end time study incorporates all context and rejects doctrines based on omission.
The "going through the trib" belief is made up.
Bible facts:
1) the AC is given power to overcome the saints
2) every human on the planet, not a believer, either takes the mark, or is martyred.
3) 1 thes 4 says the dead in christ rise first.
That ONLY fits a pretrib rapture.
What is postribs main talking point?
"Only one coming at the white horses 2nd coming of rev 19"
That is a huge problem.
In fact they themselves destroy their own doctrine.
The gathering of rev 14:14 is BEFORE the second coming.
Postribs are actually oblivious to the Fact that they claim a gathering / resurrection AFTER rev 14's gathering BY JESUS DURING THE TRIB.
Was the bible wrong that the dead in Christ
DO NOT RISE FIRST??????
Now, why promote a failed doctrine???? ?
I just sank their entire navy.
Postrib rapture is impossible on those 2 points.
Impossible.

Many put the future (Man Of Sin) (The Beast) as the ruler of earth during the 3.5 year tribulation "wrong"!

It will be God's (Two Witnesses) that rule in bringing all plagues in torturing the evil world, a literal remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, God's in control!

Revelation 11:3-6 & 10KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The Future (Two Witnesses) "All Plagues" As Often As They Will Representing "God"

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, I know. And, honestly, I don't care that you disagree.


It doesn't say the great city where He received His death sentence, it says where He was actually crucified and scripture says that was outside of Jerusalem. How can you think that earthly Jerusalem could possibly be called the holy city? Modern day Jerusalem the holy city? No chance. And how can the temple of God be some physical temple built by antichrists? You need to think this through more carefully. I'm not going to waste a bunch of time repeating the same argument we've had probably literally at least 10 times before. I just don't want to do that anymore. So, you can try to do that if you want, but I'm not interested.

Diversions:

42 months is symbolic allegory

(Two Witnesses) that have bodies that die, and lay dead in a street as a world watches in celebration, is symbolic allegory

Jerusalem upon earth where Jesus was crucified, is symbolic allegory

The "Man Of Sin" who Jesus will literally destroy at his return is symbolic allegory

Your magic wand trying to remove the future literal events in diversion through symbolic allegory has now been removed, Pinocchio's nose has been cut off

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Diversions:

42 months is symbolic allegory

(Two Witnesses) that have bodies that die, and lay dead in a street as a world watches in celebration, is symbolic allegory

Jerusalem upon earth where Jesus was crucified, is symbolic allegory

The "Man Of Sin" who Jesus will literally destroy at his return is symbolic allegory

Your magic wand trying to remove the future literal events in diversion through symbolic allegory has now been removed, Pinocchio's nose has been cut off

LOL! You are a silly person. Why do you act as if the book of Revelation is all literal text? You know it's not. You try to turn God's temple into some fake temple of God and you're telling me I'm waving a magic wand on the text? LOL! You are hilarious. And very foolish.

 

[amigo de christo]

Excellent advice amigo! I couldn't agree more, because I myself not only read but also study my Bible daily, excepting rare occasions when on the road, and even then, find quiet time with my Lord in the evenings. In the beginning of my Christian walk, I was one of those who learned from others until the day I was convicted by contradictions being taught. That's when (about 30 years ago) the Spirit speaking to my conscience persuaded me to not only read, but study to show MYSELF approved of God, rightly dividing the Word of truth. Have I always done that with perfect understanding? Has anyone? But this is what I have learned to say, when I can be shown FROM the Word of God why my understanding cannot be true because it causes confusion or contradiction, then, and only then will I be open and willing to reconsider my thinking. Problem in these forums is that many people simply disagree from personal opinions without showing FROM the Bible why! If you or anyone else believe my replies show I have not read with open ears and eyes or that I have twisted the verses to fit my preconceived doctrines than I am ready to hear what you and others have to say. Frankly, I've grown very weary of snipping replies that serve only to belittle fellow Christians. Many blessings to you and yours Amigo, whom I consider my brother in Christ and friend.

Go ahead and list some verses you beleive proves pre trib .
The problem is i have seen many use the tribulation of THE AC , BEAST and etc as PRE WRATH .
NO that is not pre wrath . Pre wrath simply means WE SHEEP do not go under THE WRATH OF GOD and of the LAMB
that is coming upon all who loved a lie , all who took that mark , All who rejected Christ
and YES upon the beast as well . But pre t rib uses pre trib
one one hand saying HEY we dont go under the wrath of GOD , TRUE THAT IS MY FRIEND ,
but then turn around and try and imply it means not under the wrath of the beast . NOT SO .
We have , as they have and were are appointed unto tribulations of men in this world .
The thing is , and this might even shock you too ,
ASK yourself WHY i beleive the coming of the LORD is even at the door .
Ask yourself that . WHY does amigo even BELIEVE the COMING OF JESUS is AT THE DOOR
and yet he preaches agaisnt pre trib .
AND why is that , CAUSE you would be shocked at just how far along
we already ARE in that WHICH IS OF ANTI CHRIST and HOW IT HAS GROWN MASSIVE
and how all who enter into its lie are crying this is the path to PEACE N SAFETY
and i keep saying , OH NOT IT AINT , ITS GONNA BE THEIR SUDDEN D ESTRUCTION on JESUS DAY .
You would marvel at just who many even in wool be following now my friend .
AND just how far along we truly are in this very late and last hour upon earth .
Rememb er when i said IF ANYONE here is in any way connected to and a supporter of anything
ecumeincal intefaith , THEY NEED TO CEASE and GET OUT OF IT NOW .
I was not kidding . THAT ENTIRE HOUSE is coming DOWN ON JESUS DAY . WHICH i surley
do say to all , T HAT DAY AND HOUR DRAWS VERY NIGH INDEED . Just look around at the signs of the times .
Just take a good long look at this world and even much of christendom .
A universal lie they all believe to be love , all believe to be OF G OD , OH ITS GETTING BOUGHT and accepted my friend .
WE are running out of time and out of time this world is a running .

 

[amigo de christo]

If you are bible centered, post a postrib rapture verse for us.
Should be easy.

i dont support ALL that post trib teaches . Surpised yet .
I TOLD us i do not nor did not sit under man to learn that bible .
And what i do say to you , i say to all
YALL better get far from and wide from ANYTHING ecumeincal and its intefaith
cause THAT HOUSE is gonna be smashed FLAT ON JESUS day .
OH YES the coming OF THIS KING JESUS do draw nigh .
And we are much much farther along than what meets the eye .
MANY cannot truly see and discern the signs of the times anymore .
THEY got some kind of hollywood AC , or something men taught t hem CLOGGING THEIR EYES .
FOr what i say to one i say to all ,
THAT WHICH IS OF ANTI CHRIST has been at work a long long time
And a serious delusion to now merge ALL of the decieved false religoins
with THE DECIEVED LIP only following and hoping in men christains ,
TO ALL MERGE under what all will b eleive is LOVE < GOD and IS HIS PLAN FOR PEACE
ONLY IT THE DEVIL , BEAST and etc . THIS people whose hope and t rust has been in men
IS CURSED , CURSED i say .
But i have come to point us all b ack TO JUST HOPE , TRUST IN GOD AND IN CHRIST
and to warn all to flee anything connected to ecumeincalism , WHILE THEIR STIL Lbe TIME to do so .

 

[David in NJ]

If you are bible centered, post a postrib rapture verse for us.
Should be easy.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[David in NJ]

Go ahead and list some verses you beleive proves pre trib .
The problem is i have seen many use the tribulation of THE AC , BEAST and etc as PRE WRATH .
NO that is not pre wrath . Pre wrath simply means WE SHEEP do not go under THE WRATH OF GOD and of the LAMB
that is coming upon all who loved a lie , all who took that mark , All who rejected Christ
and YES upon the beast as well . But pre t rib uses pre trib
one one hand saying HEY we dont go under the wrath of GOD , TRUE THAT IS MY FRIEND ,
but then turn around and try and imply it means not under the wrath of the beast . NOT SO .
We have , as they have and were are appointed unto tribulations of men in this world .
The thing is , and this might even shock you too ,
ASK yourself WHY i beleive the coming of the LORD is even at the door .
Ask yourself that . WHY does amigo even BELIEVE the COMING OF JESUS is AT THE DOOR
and yet he preaches agaisnt pre trib .
AND why is that , CAUSE you would be shocked at just how far along
we already ARE in that WHICH IS OF ANTI CHRIST and HOW IT HAS GROWN MASSIVE
and how all who enter into its lie are crying this is the path to PEACE N SAFETY
and i keep saying , OH NOT IT AINT , ITS GONNA BE THEIR SUDDEN D ESTRUCTION on JESUS DAY .
You would marvel at just who many even in wool be following now my friend .
AND just how far along we truly are in this very late and last hour upon earth .
Rememb er when i said IF ANYONE here is in any way connected to and a supporter of anything
ecumeincal intefaith , THEY NEED TO CEASE and GET OUT OF IT NOW .
I was not kidding . THAT ENTIRE HOUSE is coming DOWN ON JESUS DAY . WHICH i surley
do say to all , T HAT DAY AND HOUR DRAWS VERY NIGH INDEED . Just look around at the signs of the times .
Just take a good long look at this world and even much of christendom .
A universal lie they all believe to be love , all believe to be OF G OD , OH ITS GETTING BOUGHT and accepted my friend .
WE are running out of time and out of time this world is a running .

If you are bible centered, post a postrib rapture verse for us.
Should be easy.

@Marilyn C

There actually is a pre-trib passage Spoken by the LORD Jesus Christ.

Right in front of everyone's eyes yet they completely miss it!!!

Do you know where in the Gospel that JESUS Spoke it???

 

[amigo de christo]

Excellent advice amigo! I couldn't agree more, because I myself not only read but also study my Bible daily, excepting rare occasions when on the road, and even then, find quiet time with my Lord in the evenings. In the beginning of my Christian walk, I was one of those who learned from others until the day I was convicted by contradictions being taught. That's when (about 30 years ago) the Spirit speaking to my conscience persuaded me to not only read, but study to show MYSELF approved of God, rightly dividing the Word of truth. Have I always done that with perfect understanding? Has anyone? But this is what I have learned to say, when I can be shown FROM the Word of God why my understanding cannot be true because it causes confusion or contradiction, then, and only then will I be open and willing to reconsider my thinking. Problem in these forums is that many people simply disagree from personal opinions without showing FROM the Bible why! If you or anyone else believe my replies show I have not read with open ears and eyes or that I have twisted the verses to fit my preconceived doctrines than I am ready to hear what you and others have to say. Frankly, I've grown very weary of snipping replies that serve only to belittle fellow Christians. Many blessings to you and yours Amigo, whom I consider my brother in Christ and friend.

Ponder on this my friend .
You know what i find so startling .
Many can say truths , many can even understand the God head
and other things . AND YET do you wanna know what i see in most .
They are heading into or already in , THIS ECUMEINCAL NIGHTMARE of anti christ and its intefaith .
AND they actually beleive its the peace plan of GOD .
SO let me give us all some good sound advice . EVEN the RCC can spout truths
EVEN a mormon can spout truths
and yet them and others KNOW NOT THE TRUTH .
Something i have noticed . I watch the people on this site .
Much of them cling to hopes in polticians on either the right or left
Most hold to hope in thta ecumiencal movmement .
SO TELL me , what would it matter IF one even did understand a truth
AND YET WAS IN A LIE all along a lie of anti christ .
TELL me what good was that knowledge THEN .
I am watching this site and other sites .
AND I am telling us all we got a serious problem .
I have never seen a generation on both sides so educated in greek
so educated and wise sounding in intellectual hermes and etc
THEY always seem to be learning , but unable to even COME TO THE BASIC T RUTH at all .
DONT this people realize JESUS has been DENEID by this ecumeincal peace plan .
THEY SO RUN to and HOPE IN . JESUS HAS BEEN DENEID .
HOW ON EARTH is that any knd of peace plan of GOD . THEY LIED
to all the false religoins as well as to christendom . THE DIRE NEED to BLEIEVE ON JESUS GOT DENEID .
And yet people run to this ecumenical move as though tis the love of GOD .
THEY RUN to these UNITY preachers and finding common ground .
THEY RUN to men who brought us The abraham peace accords , WHICH AGAIN DENIED THE DIRE NEED
to BELIEVE ON JESUS .
we got problems my friend . MANY seem to be in love and falling only more in love with
A LIE . a lie they THINK is LOVE AND THINK is OF GOD
but has called evil good and good evil , has trod the dire need to b eleive on jESUS under foot .
AND THEY T HINK its so loving , so of GOD . IT AINT . ITS Of satan . And warn i must .

 

[amigo de christo]

Excellent advice amigo! I couldn't agree more, because I myself not only read but also study my Bible daily, excepting rare occasions when on the road, and even then, find quiet time with my Lord in the evenings. In the beginning of my Christian walk, I was one of those who learned from others until the day I was convicted by contradictions being taught. That's when (about 30 years ago) the Spirit speaking to my conscience persuaded me to not only read, but study to show MYSELF approved of God, rightly dividing the Word of truth. Have I always done that with perfect understanding? Has anyone? But this is what I have learned to say, when I can be shown FROM the Word of God why my understanding cannot be true because it causes confusion or contradiction, then, and only then will I be open and willing to reconsider my thinking. Problem in these forums is that many people simply disagree from personal opinions without showing FROM the Bible why! If you or anyone else believe my replies show I have not read with open ears and eyes or that I have twisted the verses to fit my preconceived doctrines than I am ready to hear what you and others have to say. Frankly, I've grown very weary of snipping replies that serve only to belittle fellow Christians. Many blessings to you and yours Amigo, whom I consider my brother in Christ and friend.

The building is on fire my friend . On fire and all within it will surely burn on the day of the LORD .
Its coming down upon them all my friend .
But t his sheep sees the smoke and so i warn all
to get out of anything connected to this ecumeincal building of interfaith .
I pray many get out of it fast before FOREVER it be TOO LATE for them .