Actually that was a copy paste from our mate BOL, so i guess you just discovered I am fa liable, it is also teh reason why i sometimes leave my spelling errors in there, because I know i am not perfect. Wish i was as HE is, just not yet.
Built On The Wrong Apostle
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Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
I'm referring to the nature of Scripture, not the canon. What exactly constitutes the canon is a separate issue. Scripture is God-breathed revelation the second it is given. It doesn't require a council's formal recognition to be so. For example, Peter recognized Paul's writings as Scripture long before any council did.
2Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2Pe 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
James had authority as bishop of Jerusalem, that does not mean Peter had no authority. Just because James spoke last does not mean he made a ruling that had already been made by Peter, it means that James was addressing the Jerusalem community, not the universal Church. Peter isn't mentioned after that because to repeat what he already declared would be stupid.
A big pack of lies.
Isa. 22:22 - we see that the keys of the kingdom pass from Shebna to Eliakim. Thus, the keys are used not only as a symbol of authority, but also to facilitate succession. The keys of Christ's kingdom have passed from Peter to Linus all the way to our current Pope with an unbroken lineage for almost 2,000 years.
Rev. 1:18; 3:7; 9:1; 20:1 - Jesus' "keys" undeniably represent authority. By using the word "keys," Jesus gives Peter authority on earth over the new Davidic kingdom, and this was not seriously questioned by anyone until the Protestant revolt 1,500 years later after Peter’s investiture.
Revelation 3:7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: `The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens. (where is James?)
Matthew 16:19 - whatever Peter binds or looses on earth is bound or loosed in heaven / when the Prime Minister to the King opens, no one shuts. This "binding and loosing" authority allows the keeper of the keys to establish "halakah," or rules of conduct for the members of the kingdom he serves. (where is James?)
Where in scripture is apostolic authority transferred to the Bible alone?
Provide scholarly evidence of "a church plots murder" or stop the hate speech.
You may deny being a Seventh Day Adventist or a similar cult but you preach the same anti-Catholic lunacies as they do.[/QUOTE]
***
If the scriptures are not scholarly evidence then all you have is the teachings of men who are just as sinful as you are. If you do not acknowledge that the scriptures are the words of God for us then you can not claim your leaders have the keys to the kingdom since you use scripture to try and prove it.
I see the RCC as an anti-Christ since it replaces Jesus with a man organised and ran religious organization and states that it has the keys to the kingdom when Jesus plainly said that He is the door to Heaven and that no one can go there except through Him. Your church is not god.
****
So you deny the inquisitions. Then all the history books are wrong. Man can deny many things. But that does not mean it didn't happen.
BreadOfLife
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You're still missing the point.
Jesus tells Peter, “whatever YOU (singular) shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever YOU (singular) shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
In Matt. 18:18, He says, to the Twelve, “whatever YOU (all) bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever YOU (all) loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
He never tells John or James or Andrew or ANY of the others individually what He said to Peter. Not only is Peter singled out - He is given this power before the rest. They have the power corporately - whereas, Peter has it individually.
FHII
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So then Peter can bind and loose on his own but the rest of the Apostles have to do it together? Is that what you are saying? I am asking and not charging you with that belief.
If you bekieve that then when did they collectively do so? Overall... Rhey together fulfilled the mission given to them. Sure. But we know very little a little about many of the Apostles after Acts chapter 2. History says the went beyond the Roman empire to preach.
And what of Paul? Certainly he bound and loosened much. And we don't even hear about him given that authority... But he did.
My point is that I don't believe (based on scripture and history) that after Matt 18:18 Peter had anything unique. The other apostles had it too and they had it individually.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
The notion that Peter is granted special pope powers because he was addressed individually before the others were addressed corporately is a figment of your own fertile imagination. No text in Matthew 16 or 18 allude to any such thing. You have to read that into accounts despite the fact that Peter didn't seem to know he had preeminence over the others -- which I evidenced many times now.
BreadOfLife
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It's the same way today. No ONE Bishop can make a decision affecting the entire Church - EXCEPT for the Bishop of Rome, the Pope.
Corporately, they can rule on matters affecting the Church at large - even infallibly.
Binding and loosing isn't just about forgiving sins. Jesus said WHATEVER you bind or loose . . .
BreadOfLife
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Hey - if you want to cover your eyes and plug your ears - be my guest.
The Scriptural record is blindingly clear on Peter's primacy. I and others have given you piles of Scriptural evidence - and all you can do is deny.
Here is some of the evidence again, in case you forgot . . .
a. Tell me WHY Jesus singled out Peter when He gave him the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19) if did not put him in charge.
b. Tell me WHY Jesus asked Peter and Peter alone to feed His lambs and tend His sheep (John 21:15-19) if did not put him in charge.
c. Tell me WHY Jesus said that He prayed for Peter ALONE to strengthen the others and bring them back to faith (Luke 22:31-32) if did not put him in charge.
d. Tell me WHY Peter called "Protos" in the Gospel (Matt. 10:2) if He was not in charge??
e. Tell me WHY Peter's name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Matt. 10:2; Mk 3:16; Luke 6:14; Acts 1:13) if He was not in charge??
f. Tell me WHY Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and representative of the apostles (Mark 16:7) if He was not in charge??
g. Tell me WHY Peter takes the lead in calling for a replacement for Judas (Acts 1:22) if He was not in charge??
h. Tell me WHY Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, making him the first Christian to preach the Gospel in the Church (Acts 2:14-36) if He was not in charge??
i. Tell me WHY Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12) if He was not in charge??
j. Tell me WHY Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11) if He was not in charge??
k. Tell me WHY Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40) if He was not in charge??
l. Tell me WHY Cornelius is told by an angel to seek out Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6) if He was not in charge??
m. Tell me WHY Peter's name is mentioned more often than all the other disciples put together if He was not in charge??
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Like I said before, peculiar commissions do not equal preeminence. James and the Jerusalem Council make this blindingly clear.
BreadOfLife
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James and the Council of Jerusalem simply mirror what goes on to this day when it comes to ecumenical councils. Peter's primacy is as clear as day in Acts 15 - unless you have another agenda . . .
***
The last NT book to be written was Revelation around 95 AD. Do you think after that all Christians suddenly became illiterate until 1517???
By "Scholarly evidence" I mean history written by Ph.D. because the internet is mostly falsehoods, and that is the only way to weed out the liars. Even then it doesn't always work. One must be discerning.
Scriptures have always been considered as primary source documentation, but I am not taking about scripture in that sense, I am taking about recent scholarly evidence that dismisses the lies invented by anti-Catholics. They are not in scripture. Whenever I ask for recent scholarly documentation i.e. the Inquisition or the Crusades, the accusers change the subject or run away.
A surface reading of I Timothy 2:5 would seem to eliminate the idea of Christians “mediating” graces to one another: “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.” Protestants will argue, “If Jesus is our one mediator, then Christ alone mediates grace. In saying anyone else can, Catholics are usurping and thereby denying Christ’s singular role as mediator. That’s blasphemy!”
THE CATHOLIC RESPONSE:
Much to the surprise of many Protestants I have spoken to over the years, the Catholic Church actually acknowledges Christ to be our one and absolutely unique mediator who alone can reconcile us to the Father in a strict sense. In his classic, The Catholic Catechism, Fr. John Hardon explains:
… the Incarnation corresponds to mediation in the order of being, and the Redemption (remission of sin and conferral of grace) is mediation morally.
This kind of mediation is incommunicable. No one but the Savior unites in himself the divinity, which demands reconciliation, and the humanity, which needs to be reconciled.
Protestants generally agree with us on this point. However, Fr. Hardon goes on to say:
The “lesser and subordinate mediators” is where the trouble starts. And yet, the context of I Timothy 2:5 demonstrates Fr. Hardon’s point. In the first two verses, St. Paul commands “supplications, prayers and intercessions to be made for all men...” Intercession is a synonym for mediation. Hebrews 7:24-25 refers to Jesus acting as our one mediator at the right hand of the Father and refers to him as intercessor:
But [Christ] holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently, he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
Christ is our one mediator/intercessor, yet, St. Paul commands all Christians to be intercessors/mediators. Then notice the first word in verse five: “For there is one God and one mediator…” And then in verse seven he says, “For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle.” What is an apostle if not a mediator? The very definition of apostle, according to Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, is “a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders.” That’s an essential part of what a mediator is. In short, St. Paul says we are all called to be mediators because Christ is the one mediator and for this reason he was called to be a mediator of God’s love and grace to the world!
Is this a contradiction? Not at all! The fact that Jesus is our one mediator does not preclude him from communicating this power by way of participation. The Bible also declares: “But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have one teacher, (Gr. – didaskolos) and you are all brethren.” This text cannot be any clearer, yet James 3:1 and Ephesians 4:11 tell us we have many teachers (Gr. – didaskoloi) in the Church. The key is to understand that the many teachers and mediators in the body of Christ do not take away from Christ as the one teacher and mediator because they are, in a sense, Christ on this earth and they serve to establish his offices of teacher and mediator in him. As members of the body of Christ graced with a specific task by Christ they can say with St. Paul in Galatians 2:20, “It is not I, but Christ who [teaches] in me…”
And remember, we are not talking about necessity here. The Church is not claiming Christ couldn’t get the job done so he needed help. Of course not! He could do it all—and all by himself—if he wanted to. He could come down here right now and write this blog post much more effectively than I ever could. But he chooses not to do everything himself, strictly speaking. He delights in using his body to communicate his life and love to the world.
One Mediator Between God and Men | Catholic Answers
Your system forbids what Christ delights in, and you insult Him with absurd, baseless charges.
What you call scholarly evidence in the scriptures is your own private interpretation, it's not evidence at all. You also deny the facts of history by denying the witness of the Early Church Fathers. A witness is not scripture, we already know that. The scriptures are the written word of God, a Catholic teaching you borrowed from us.
The last NT book to be written was Revelation around 95 AD. Do you think after that all Christians suddenly became illiterate until 1517???
By "Scholarly evidence" I mean history written by Ph.D. because the internet is mostly falsehoods, and that is the only way to weed out the liars. Even then it doesn't always work. One must be discerning.
Scriptures have always been considered as primary source documentation, but I am not taking about scripture in that sense, I am taking about recent scholarly evidence that dismisses the lies invented by anti-Catholics. They are not in scripture. Whenever I ask for recent scholarly documentation i.e. the Inquisition or the Crusades, the accusers change the subject or run away.
I challenge you to find a single official Catholic document in a 2000 year period that states "a man" replaces Jesus. It's both a straw man fallacy and bigotted hate speech. But you can't help but put Church authority down at every opportunity because it is a man made Protestant tradition to do so. Nowhere in the Bible does the Bible do to the Church what you do.
A surface reading of I Timothy 2:5 would seem to eliminate the idea of Christians “mediating” graces to one another: “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.” Protestants will argue, “If Jesus is our one mediator, then Christ alone mediates grace. In saying anyone else can, Catholics are usurping and thereby denying Christ’s singular role as mediator. That’s blasphemy!”
THE CATHOLIC RESPONSE:
Much to the surprise of many Protestants I have spoken to over the years, the Catholic Church actually acknowledges Christ to be our one and absolutely unique mediator who alone can reconcile us to the Father in a strict sense. In his classic, The Catholic Catechism, Fr. John Hardon explains:
… the Incarnation corresponds to mediation in the order of being, and the Redemption (remission of sin and conferral of grace) is mediation morally.
This kind of mediation is incommunicable. No one but the Savior unites in himself the divinity, which demands reconciliation, and the humanity, which needs to be reconciled.
Protestants generally agree with us on this point. However, Fr. Hardon goes on to say:
Nevertheless, lesser and subordinate mediators are not excluded. The question is what purpose they serve and in what sense do they mediate. They can help the cause of mediation in the only way that human beings (or creatures) can contribute to the work of salvation, namely, by their willing response to grace; either better disposing themselves or others for divine grace, or interceding with God to give his grace, or freely cooperating with grace when conferred.
The “lesser and subordinate mediators” is where the trouble starts. And yet, the context of I Timothy 2:5 demonstrates Fr. Hardon’s point. In the first two verses, St. Paul commands “supplications, prayers and intercessions to be made for all men...” Intercession is a synonym for mediation. Hebrews 7:24-25 refers to Jesus acting as our one mediator at the right hand of the Father and refers to him as intercessor:
But [Christ] holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently, he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
Christ is our one mediator/intercessor, yet, St. Paul commands all Christians to be intercessors/mediators. Then notice the first word in verse five: “For there is one God and one mediator…” And then in verse seven he says, “For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle.” What is an apostle if not a mediator? The very definition of apostle, according to Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, is “a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders.” That’s an essential part of what a mediator is. In short, St. Paul says we are all called to be mediators because Christ is the one mediator and for this reason he was called to be a mediator of God’s love and grace to the world!
Is this a contradiction? Not at all! The fact that Jesus is our one mediator does not preclude him from communicating this power by way of participation. The Bible also declares: “But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have one teacher, (Gr. – didaskolos) and you are all brethren.” This text cannot be any clearer, yet James 3:1 and Ephesians 4:11 tell us we have many teachers (Gr. – didaskoloi) in the Church. The key is to understand that the many teachers and mediators in the body of Christ do not take away from Christ as the one teacher and mediator because they are, in a sense, Christ on this earth and they serve to establish his offices of teacher and mediator in him. As members of the body of Christ graced with a specific task by Christ they can say with St. Paul in Galatians 2:20, “It is not I, but Christ who [teaches] in me…”
And remember, we are not talking about necessity here. The Church is not claiming Christ couldn’t get the job done so he needed help. Of course not! He could do it all—and all by himself—if he wanted to. He could come down here right now and write this blog post much more effectively than I ever could. But he chooses not to do everything himself, strictly speaking. He delights in using his body to communicate his life and love to the world.
One Mediator Between God and Men | Catholic Answers
Your system forbids what Christ delights in, and you insult Him with absurd, baseless charges.
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Where have I done that?
What I deny are the stupid anti-Catholic falsehoods that is not supported by recent scholarship, Protestant, Catholic, or secular. Anything written before 1970 is unreliable but you guys often rely on outdated 18th century information, with anti-Catholics trying to out-do each other.. The recently opened archives are quite revealing. It's not me that is in denial.
The Real Inquisition | National Review
The Truth about the Spanish Inquisition - Crisis Magazine (not a Catholic publication)
Historical revision of the Inquisition - Wikipedia (definitely not a Catholic publication)
In Defense of the Church: The Protestant Inquisition: "Reformation" Intolerance and Persecution by Dave Amstrong
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Yeah... there's really something in the way James says,
Act 15:19 Therefore my judgment is...
that really screams that someone else is actually in charge here.
BreadOfLife
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Last week, I told my confirmation students that they should work at the Pro Life Breakfast at the Church.Yeah... there's really something in the way James says,
Act 15:19 Therefore my judgment is...
that really screams that someone else is actually in charge here.
One of the students said that he thought that they should do it to show their support for the cause.
WHO was in charge? ME. The student simply agreed with me.
Same with James and Peter at the Council of Jerusalem . . .
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Let’s contemplate the difference between “I agree with you boss” and “Therefore my judgement is...” I’m afraid you’re grasping at straws.
BreadOfLife
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No - it's the same thing but a difference in the linguistics of the time.
People don't even talk the same way in the U.S. that they did in the 19th century.
I see that there are 13 items in your list. Coincidence? What are you holding in your avatar? Looks like the sun.
BreadOfLife
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Apparently - you didn't bother to actually R*E*A*D my post.
I explicitly said: "Here is SOME of the evidence again . . ."
In other words - it isn't limited to 13 points, my superstitious friend.
Oh, and by the way - my avatar shows the Body of Christ, the Eucharist.
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