Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
An occasional answered prayer is not evidence of a Faith Formula.tested by the word.
My testimony lines up with the Word of God.
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An occasional answered prayer is not evidence of a Faith Formula.tested by the word.
My testimony lines up with the Word of God.
Either I gave up or I got smart. I take the 2nd notion. Good luck with the 1st.OK..now we found the root. You gave up. That is the reason you resist the fact that healing is promised.
You are judging Gods word by your experience.
You really need to read Job.
never give up.
You should read smith wigglesworth.
He had over 80% success rate in miraculous healing.
I define "faith" differently than you do. I have stronger faith now than I ever did. I'm just not so gullible, and I won't set fellow Christians up for failure. We may fail, but God does not.Gods word is true.
Your dilutants do not change the bible. However you will rob yourself of faith.
You utilize what's called "non sequitur" reasoning. You assume that the truths of Salvation apply exactly as the truths of Healing. They do not. You are assuming, up front, that "Healing is in the Atonement" on an equal basis. It is not.Salvation is part of the atonement.
So lets play out your human reasoning.
Under your deal, salvation fails, because if Jesus died for the world, and we see most are unsaved, then he must have only died for a few.
That is your framing and where your human reasoning takes you.
but the fact is, salvation is NOT A PASSIVE AUTOMATIC. YOU MUST ACT ON THE PROVISION.
No, I've shared with you what the Bible says about this. You've completely ignored my biblical evidence. Brain-washed people do not like to look at any contrary evidence. But we are encouraged to "have a reason for anyone who asks." You aren't doing that.But in your rebellion of the bible, you do exactly that to healing. You REFRAME THE BIBLE INTO "healing in my imagination ,has to be automatic" Completely misrepresenting me and the bible.
Your reasoning and error is:
"Since this...we must assume that."
Please, if you refer to cessationists, do not apply that to me. I'm *not* a cessationist, and I've told you that. To imply that while you and I are having this conversation is an attempt to malign me, to slander me. Don't make that mistake!sharing a real life miracle to a cessationist is like giving a $3000 violin to a gorilla.
Thanks for the testimony.I do believe it is for both, right now as a newly diagnosed diabetic, every insulin shot I take, I proclaim that by His stripes I am healed, and most of all I believe it. My A1C has improved dramatically, because of different eating habits and exercise, and that's because I believe that I can do all things through Christ. This was something I brought on myself, acknowledging that and attacking it back, I know that the Lord is with me, He wants us healthy physically and spiritually to minister and build up the kingdom of God.
1 Peter 2:23-25 KJVKing James Bible, Isaiah 53:
Is this about physical healing or spiritual healing?
Matthew understood that as both. It does not mean that we can insist on it every time that we are sick. There is no guarantee that believers will always be physically healed by his stripes. There is 100% guarantee that by his stripes, our relationship with God is always restored if we believe, 1 Peter 2:
By his stripes we are healed. Really?
Physically, sometimes. Spiritually, always.
This theory is exactly why we see so little in the way of answered prayer.1 Peter 2:23-25 KJV
23) Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24) Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25) For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Peter interpretted this prophecy as the healing of our relationship with God, and our inner sinfulness. By whose stripes ye are healed, for - that is, because - ye were as straying sheep, now you've returned.
Not to say that God doesn't heal, I know He does. Only, when we say, we receive healing in Jesus' shed blood, just as we receive forgiveness, then we should be able to say all who believe are healed of all things, and that's not so. Healing is a blessing God gives as it pleases Him. In Christ all receive forgiveness of sins, and new life.
Much love!
Please, if you refer to cessationists, do not apply that to me. I'm *not* a cessationist, and I've told you that. To imply that while you and I are having this conversation is an attempt to malign me, to slander me. Don't make that mistake!
In post #31 I said this:
Well, it's a nice emotional story, but that account doesn't in the least address the points I had hoped to make with you! You sound as if you're still trying to prove miracles work? My point was that miracles are not guaranteed!
Obviously, miracles do happen for the believer who has experienced them. There are many different kinds of miracles. They are supernatural acts of a supernatural God who has unlimited power. But I'm saying something else.
Would anybody here then think that I'm a "cessationist?" Even if you wished to address others who are true cessationists, you should recognize that you were having a conversation with me, and then making this statement in that context.
If you are so brazen in your personal attack and misstatements, why should anybody believe you? Perhaps you're defining a "cessationist" as one who doesn't hold to *Faith Doctrine?* I believe that under the guidance of the Holy Spirit a minister or any individual Christian may declare a healing miracle. That is Faith Teaching, but it is not Faith Doctrine.
1 Cor 12.29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.
But yes, I reject Faith Doctrine, as I'm defining it as a formula that guarantees the Christian healing the same way it guarantees him Salvation. In this case, I'm rejecting a teaching never existed in the historic church, and I've already given you the Bible on this. You're just unwilling or unable to address it.
"...miracles are not guaranteed"
...and yet those verses do not even remotely prove God is a "maybe God"1 Cor 12.29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.
But yes, I reject Faith Doctrine, as I'm defining it as a formula that guarantees the Christian healing the same way it guarantees him Salvation. In this case, I'm rejecting a teaching never existed in the historic church, and I've already given you the Bible on this. You're just unwilling or unable to address it.
Wow, really.No, that is absolutely untrue. Healing ultimately is provided for in terms of our immortalization at the resurrection. But healing cannot be guaranteed in the present environment, in the present age, because blessings are limited in a world that remains contaminated by pagans, and in a world where we ourselves continue to be infected by Sin. Christ himself, in all of his perfection, did not come to earth to be strictly blessed, free of all suffering. On the contrary, he came to ultimately die on the cross.
We are not "Saved" now in the sense we instantly become Immortal, just as we are not "healed" now in the sense we instantly become immortal. Are there differences in our physical and spiritual being when we get Saved? Of course. But this is just a down payment on the completion of our Salvation and Healing.
pure baloneyNo, the Devil is not my favorite subject. Just like Halloween is not my favorite holiday! But yes, he has to be brought into the conversation because he is real, and an adversary must be understood if we are to resist him.
I'm never going to cover a subject completely. So there is no conspiracy here for me to leave the Devil out of this conversation! To think that is to be a bit paranoid. Criticism is something we all have to watch out for, just like watching out for the Devil.
But of course I would agree with you that the Devil is a real adversary that must be dealt with. We do need to be protected from him by putting on our spiritual armor.
Ascribing the Devil's works to God is not as bad as you make it out to be. God is omnipotent and oversees everything, including the works of the Devil. Everything the Devil does is something that God causes to happen by way of His tolerance and what might be called his "secondary will." He does will that evil beings be given opportunity to show that they are evil so that they will be judged.
You will find throughout Scriptures that God has been given credit for overseeing the works of all, righteous and unrighteous, even though God Himself is not producing evil as if it is His highest or primary will. God wishes to show all that He is righteous, just, and loving. His secondary will ultimately conforms to God's primary will in the end.
No, that is absolutely untrue. Healing ultimately is provided for in terms of our immortalization at the resurrection. But healing cannot be guaranteed in the present environment, in the present age, because blessings are limited in a world that remains contaminated by pagans, and in a world where we ourselves continue to be infected by Sin. Christ himself, in all of his perfection, did not come to earth to be strictly blessed, free of all suffering. On the contrary, he came to ultimately die on the cross.No, that is absolutely untrue. Healing ultimately is provided for in terms of our immortalization at the resurrection. But healing cannot be guaranteed in the present environment, in the present age, because blessings are limited in a world that remains contaminated by pagans, and in a world where we ourselves continue to be infected by Sin. Christ himself, in all of his perfection, did not come to earth to be strictly blessed, free of all suffering. On the contrary, he came to ultimately die on the cross.
We are not "Saved" now in the sense we instantly become Immortal, just as we are not "healed" now in the sense we instantly become immortal. Are there differences in our physical and spiritual being when we get Saved? Of course. But this is just a down payment on the completion of our Salvation and Healing.
Bingo!!!I do believe it is for both, right now as a newly diagnosed diabetic, every insulin shot I take, I proclaim that by His stripes I am healed, and most of all I believe it. My A1C has improved dramatically, because of different eating habits and exercise, and that's because I believe that I can do all things through Christ. This was something I brought on myself, acknowledging that and attacking it back, I know that the Lord is with me, He wants us healthy physically and spiritually to minister and build up the kingdom of God.
promises are passive and proactive.It took me about 12 years to burn this "false faith" out of me! When you pray for something long enough, and the prayer is not answered, we should learn, at some point, that God is not going to answer the prayer!
I don't make apologies for God. But I will confess my own sins. But my sin is not my opposition to Faith Doctrine. If you don't want to believe it, fine--I have no need to try to change your mind. I simply wish to inform you of truth that can help you when you aren't feeling so confident. I don't want Christians to give up when their theology falls apart. God is there to pick up the pieces--I know.
I had all of the books on Faith Healing. I read Kenneth Hagin's biography, and financially supported Oral Roberts and a number of "Faith Healers." I've been in numerous Healing Services--my church in Anaheim had healing services every Sunday night.
I believe in Faith Healing! I don't believe a Healing Formula exists or works. I have no personal agenda--this is just what I feel Christians need to hear for their own sanity! Faith Doctrine is a false theology that claims Healing is in our control through the use of a "magic formula." That is false doctrine.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This is what i am talking about.
We all know saints get sick and die.
No brainer.
Never said they didn't and never will.
I said AS IS VIVIDLY PORTRAYED in the word that it is his will for ALL his children to be healed.
Healing is PROVIDED for.
Frame your assertions around salvation and you have the same dynamic i am saying.
Salvation provided for the entire planet by Jesus and the cross.
Healing the same.
You have never understood my position.
You are so fearful somebody is in your box, you have not seen at all what i am saying.
Jesus heals today, very strangely invokes all kinds of fear of man.
You can ,( for example) ,parade every atheist around the world. Invoke every one of them, and do so every time someone says "salvation is part of the atonement" and you will bat the air with all sorts of strange silliness, but what is your cause??????
The same with healing.
It is part of the atonement whether you parade every sick or dying saint into the mix or not...it changes nothing.
Salvation provided = IT MUST BE LAID HOLD OF.
saints dying and sick has ZERO to do with physical healing we are promised at the cross.
The same is true of communion.
Some die and are sick because they did not discern properly the body of Christ.
Does that change ANYTHING concerning the beauty and blessing of the communion table?????
Nope. It was THEIR CALL to mix sin and God.
It is our call to appropriate the promise of healing.
Same with the brass serpent. They HAD TO LOOK at it.
Salvation....conditional
Healing....conditional
Communion table ....conditional
BTW...what is spiritual healing?King James Bible, Isaiah 53:
Is this about physical healing or spiritual healing?
Matthew understood that as both. It does not mean that we can insist on it every time that we are sick. There is no guarantee that believers will always be physically healed by his stripes. There is 100% guarantee that by his stripes, our relationship with God is always restored if we believe, 1 Peter 2:
By his stripes we are healed. Really?
Physically, sometimes. Spiritually, always.
Um . . . speak for yourself . . .This theory is exactly why we see so little in the way of answered prayer.
Promises of healing are conditional.Um . . . speak for yourself . . .
And, there's no "theory" being presented, only Peter's interpretation of the OT prophecy. Take it or leave it. But you'll find things work a certain way, and we are not always healed, sometimes God wants us to go through the storm.
Much love!