Calling all Law Keepers.

[Dcopymope]

Sounds wonderful....Revelation is a book I have not easily gotten my head around, and having asked the Lord many times, but He taking me to Genesis instead ( for years ) I gave up even reading it...Perhaps it is time to have a good study of it...thank you.

I consider Revelation to be the grand central station, or the HQ of prophecy, end times prophecy in particular. If someone comes to me interpretating scripture in another book such as Daniel or Matthew concerning end times propecy that is not in any way stated in Revelation, I dismiss it as bafoonery, because scripture doesn't contradict itself. God is not the author of confusion.

 

[GodsGrace]

Rather than a garden of food with access to the "Tree of Life", he now had to work the ground for his food, and lost access to the "Tree of Life".

Right. There's so much in the story of A and E.
God tries to make life easy for us, we insist on making it difficut.
Adam didn't obey the Covenant, so his life became difficult.

Man was always mortal. Did "Satan" and the third that fell with him lose their "immortality"? Or are they still around until they are sent to the "Lake of Fire". Yes, all flesh is not the same flesh, there are celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial. However, the first man is of the earth (cf 1 Cor 15:39-49).

Satan and the angels were always immortal.
Man is different. As you've stated.
I learned about the preternatural gifts. It might have been in the CC.
Among them were: Immortality, infused knowledge, and more which I can't remember and it's not important enough to look up in my notes. (or online). Doesn't the NT say that sin brought with it death?
Romans 6:23 would seem to apply.
Sin brings death, both spiritual and also the first sin brought physical death, Genesis 2:17...it brought, immediately, spiritual death, but A and E also began to die.

I do understand your point about their having to be denied access to the Tree of Life at expulsion from the garden --- so I was thinking outloud in a post if, perhaps, they weren't already eating from it to their spiritual and physical continuation of life, and when they were denied access to it, they began to die also physically.

1Ti 6:14 that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 which in its own times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen.

WADR: I disagree regarding "immortality". If "immortality" was inherent to them, there would have been no need to block access to the "Tree of Life". 1 Tim 6:16 makes clear, that YHVH alone has "immortality".

Answered above.
Re Who Only Hath Immortality --- Never noticed that before...

I am going to <snip> the rest and refer you to @KBCid 's reply.

Laylah tov.

Looked up laylah tov...
Buona Notte.

 

[GodsGrace]

Surely you do not mean a baby that dies is lost do you?

Please explain to me how a baby has faith.

They were promised immortality if they ate from the tree you identified as Christ but they lost it when they ate from the wrong tree just as we are.

Yes, they were flesh, right? They did disobey, Right? Why would they sin if they did not have a sin nature? If you did not have a sin nature do you think satan could entice you to sin/
We agreed earlier a sin nature is not a sin. Have you forgotten already?

PS: The scripture says God created sin but that is a matter for another discussion.

You cover a lot of territory up there.
If you believe God created sin then you have no problem with Adam and Eve having a sin nature BEFORE they ate.

I just want you to know that this is not traditional Christianity. I don't know from where you got this idea.

As for babies: Did I say they were lost if they died?
Did I say a baby could sin?

NO!! I did not. You've misunderstood.

 

[GodsGrace]

Did God ever state that there was a tree of life in the garden of eden?
Read the genesis verses carefully and when your done look at the reference in Revelation and note the fruit on the tree of life.....

I'm not familiar with Revelation, except for very few verses.
But as to the Tree of Life in the Garden...yes, there was one.
Are you saying there wasn't??

 

[Mjh29]

Thank you so much! Amen to that...I just wish that everyone could see it.
I posted the thread because I got tired of seeing some people declaring that the law could be kept in our own strength and works.
You said it MUCH clearer than I could say it....I know that I am a clunky writer!
I don't express myself very well.
Bless you..Helen .

No, but inability to keep the Law is never an excuse. The laws that were for atonement pictured Christ and are thus no longer in effect, that is, ceremonial law. But commands on how to live are. How can there be grace without Christs perfect keeping of the Law? We say we are CHRISTIANS; LITTLE CHRISTS! He kept the Law, why should we not try to emulate!? We cannot do it perfectly by any stretch, and our attempt to keep it does not give us any merit before Christ, but Jesus said if you love me keep my commands.

 

[Mjh29]

You cover a lot of territory up there.
If you believe God created sin then you have no problem with Adam and Eve having a sin nature BEFORE they ate.

I just want you to know that this is not traditional Christianity. I don't know from where you got this idea.

As for babies: Did I say they were lost if they died?
Did I say a baby could sin?
NO!! I did not. You've misunderstood.

I agree. Man did not have a sin nature before the fall, otherwise God would not have called man as a creation very good. Jesus was tempted. Did he have a sin nature?

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree. Man did not have a sin nature before the fall, otherwise God would not have called man as a creation very good. Jesus was tempted. Did he have a sin nature?

Right. Of course he didn't. (the sin nature, I mean)
Which also would have meant that God created sin.

As far as Jesus, HE did not have a sin nature.
The only person ever because He was also fully God so sin could not exist in God.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, but inability to keep the Law is never an excuse. The laws that were for atonement pictured Christ and are thus no longer in effect, that is, ceremonial law. But commands on how to live are. How can there be grace without Christs perfect keeping of the Law? We say we are CHRISTIANS; LITTLE CHRISTS! He kept the Law, why should we not try to emulate!? We cannot do it perfectly by any stretch, and our attempt to keep it does not give us any merit before Christ, but Jesus said if you love me keep my commands.

Agreed also on the above.

Just want to add that the ceremonial law was abolished and also the civil law. For instance, Moses allowed Divorce Certificates, but Jesus did not.

As for Moral Law (the 10 commandments and any other law pertaining to morality) that has not been abolished. In fact, the bar has been raised, bringing the law from an external act to an act of the heart.

I find that some Christians believe that if we say we are to keep the Law, that means that the speaker is saying that they are perfect.
Where this idea comes from, I do not know...

 

[GodsGrace]

Let's look at a review by an attendee of the moment from a later time and let your mind absorb the meaning given in the first paragraph then, look for the answer you seek in the second;

17Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. 18For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 19For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. 21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. 22What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Now let us go back in time.....

Exodus 12:1 And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying, 2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. 3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house: 4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. 5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. 9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. 10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire. 11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's passover.

18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread...

The bread without yeast was symbolic of the word of God without the human additives. Christ is the pure doctrine of God without any earthly additives.

Matt 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven (yeast) of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. 7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.

11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

GG God has gifted you with a sharp mind and a discerning intellect. If you were one of the goats then you would be just another follower of mans additives... but you question many of the things that don't ring true as you should if a part of you resonates with the Spirit of God that came to you through Adam from The Father of all living.

Read these things and be all God made you to be. Do not listen to man or men... even me. Listen to what the still small voice says through your heart.... and test the spirits... if they do not speak after his word then they are not of God

OK.
Understanding about the leaven is easy.

What about what I underlined?
We were discussing WHAT is to be remembered.
Then you speak of the first month.
Are you saying we should remember Jesus' death only one time per year at the appointed time? (which I'm not sure what it is)

I always understood this verse to mean that WHENEVER we join in communion, even if every day, we are remembering the sacrifice Christ made for us, that he gave His body and blood for us.

 

[GodsGrace]

Have you never felt and been made aware of the "Real Presence" when reading your Bible prayerfully? I say prayerfully because it is when the Holy Spirit is working in us that the dead words come to Life?

Actually, I have a problem with the term Real Presence.
As far as I'm concerned, Jesus is around all the time.
So how to separate that from the "real presence"?

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't know that I can agree with that statement. I have seen nothing indicative of Adam and Eve having "immortality" in and of themselves. They had access to the "Tree of Life" until they were banished from the Garden. Thus the "guard" at the gate so to speak.

IOW: "If" they had "immortality", it would have only been the result of access to the "Tree of Life".

They had access to the Tree of Life until they were banished...
(I think I'm repeating myself here)

 

[amadeus]

Actually, I have a problem with the term Real Presence.
As far as I'm concerned, Jesus is around all the time.
So how to separate that from the "real presence"?

Indeed He is all around us, but there is a special or real presence or whatever we might want to call it that is different. It is not really, I believe, that God is different, but that our perception of Him is different because of what we have done. What we have done is opened ourselves up to Him in a way we did not do before. It might be expressed as closing off our own will in favor to His will. This is effectively what Jesus did here:

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

Jesus never sinned, but he did have something to overcome in himself. He overcame the sinful nature in himself that he had taken on when he was born to Mary whom had that sinful nature from her first parents.

Jesus was incomplete although without sin until he overcame this last obstacle within himself. We must also strive to become like Him. As we do, we are opening more of ourselves up over which we had the control. This will or can eventually make us the the special or real abode of God. This makes us the place for Jesus to lay his head that he did not have when he was walking as a man among us:

"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Matt 8:20

 

[GodsGrace]

Indeed He is all around us, but there is a special or real presence or whatever we might want to call it that is different. It is not really, I believe, that God is different, but that our perception of Him is different because of what we have done. What we have done is opened ourselves up to Him in a way we did not do before. It might be expressed as closing off our own will in favor to His will. This is effectively what Jesus did here:

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

Jesus never sinned, but he did have something to overcome in himself. He overcame the sinful nature in himself that he had taken on when he was born to Mary whom had that sinful nature from her first parents.

Jesus was incomplete although without sin until he overcame this last obstacle within himself. We must also strive to become like Him. As we do, we are opening more of ourselves up over which we had the control. This will or can eventually make us the the special or real abode of God. This makes us the place for Jesus to lay his head that he did not have when he was walking as a man among us:

"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Matt 8:20

Very interesting about how God remains the same and always present but it's US who change.
I used to try to explain to kids how Jesus was present in the host and at Adoration, in a special way. No catechist could ever really get a grip on this and the priests were of no help!

Yes. I believe this is the key.
When it's communion time at the Mass, Jesus is really there, but how could He be more there than He was an hour before when I was driving to church?

Because it's ME who sees things differently. Communion is a holy time and is perceived as such.

Do I feel like this at a Protestant service? Yes. I believe so, but it's become difficult to attend one since moving here.

Thanks!

 

[tabletalk]

Indeed He is all around us, but there is a special or real presence or whatever we might want to call it that is different. It is not really, I believe, that God is different, but that our perception of Him is different because of what we have done. What we have done is opened ourselves up to Him in a way we did not do before. It might be expressed as closing off our own will in favor to His will. This is effectively what Jesus did here:

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

Jesus never sinned, but he did have something to overcome in himself. He overcame the sinful nature in himself that he had taken on when he was born to Mary whom had that sinful nature from her first parents.

Jesus was incomplete although without sin until he overcame this last obstacle within himself. We must also strive to become like Him. As we do, we are opening more of ourselves up over which we had the control. This will or can eventually make us the the special or real abode of God. This makes us the place for Jesus to lay his head that he did not have when he was walking as a man among us:

"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Matt 8:20

Do you have Biblical evidence to support your teaching that Jesus had to overcome "the sinful nature in himself that he had taken on when he was born to Mary..."

Two passages come to mind to support Jesus not having an original sin nature:

Romans 5: 12. "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--"
Colossians 2: 9. "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;.."

Sin enters through the man, not the woman. Jesus was fully God at His birth.

 

[amadeus]

Do you have Biblical evidence to support your teaching that Jesus had to overcome "the sinful nature in himself that he had taken on when he was born to Mary..."

Two passages come to mind to support Jesus not having an original sin nature:

Romans 5: 12. "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--"
Colossians 2: 9. "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;.."

Sin enters through the man, not the woman. Jesus was fully God at His birth.

"Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:14-15

Jesus was tempted before he was an overcomer. He overcame the world per this verse:

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

 

[tabletalk]

"Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:14-15

Jesus was tempted before he was an overcomer. He overcame the world per this verse:

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

I'm not convinced these verses support Him having a sin nature. But, I best concern myself with my own temptations and sin!

 

[amadeus]

I'm not convinced these verses support Him having a sin nature. But, I best concern myself with my own temptations and sin!

Thank you for your kind consideration.

 

[jimd]

You cover a lot of territory up there.
If you believe God created sin then you have no problem with Adam and Eve having a sin nature BEFORE they ate.

YOU agreed sin nature is not a sin and then try to say it is a sin if God did it. Sorry you cannot have it both ways.

I just want you to know that this is not traditional Christianity. I don't know from where you got this idea.

I am not answerable to traditional Christianity, as you seem to be, only the Lord. I got it from the scripture.

As for babies: Did I say they were lost if they died?
Did I say a baby could sin?

NO!! I did not. You've misunderstood.

Yes you did, whether you realize it or not. Pity, you were doing so well before.

 

[GodsGrace]

YOU agreed sin nature is not a sin and then try to say it is a sin if God did it. Sorry you cannot have it both ways.

I am not answerable to traditional Christianity, as you seem to be, only the Lord. I got it from the scripture.

Yes you did, whether you realize it or not. Pity, you were doing so well before.

I'm so sorry I don't please you.

 

[GodsGrace]

"Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:14-15

Jesus was tempted before he was an overcomer. He overcame the world per this verse:

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

I didn't catch that Amadeus.
Actually @tabletalk is correct.
This is not something to be debated.
Is milk white?

Jesus was born without sin and without the sin nature.
How could God have the sin nature?
No support is necessary.

IF He had the sin nature, He would have sinned sooner or later.
There's some confusion as to temptation.
He was tempted, so...?
Being tempted does not require the sin nature to be present.
The difference is that when WE are tempted, we CAN and at times do give way to that temptation.

Jesus was also tempted in all ways as man, but He NEVER gave way to it because He DID NOT have the sin nature.

He was born fully man and fully God.
God cannot have the sin nature.