Calling all Law Keepers.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Richard_oti

Well-Known Member
Mar 17, 2008
1,170
739
113
And how was it that anyone could get through the gate to the Tree of Life. They had to pass the flaming sword. What is the sword but the Word of God. Why fire?

Gen 3:22 And YHVH God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever- 23 therefore YHVH God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden the Cherubim, and the flame of a sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


<snip for brevity>
And what is it that He consumes, if not the forces of evil?


Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith YHVH, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people; and they shall say, YHVH is my God.


Apparently only their bonds were burned up by the fire...


Indubitably.

 
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus

KBCid

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2011
764
292
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Of very much interest to me is what you wrote at the end: This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”
OK. I see what you mean, but you cannot drink a cup.
But they did drink cups at the Passover meal.
I'm going to have to look into this more.
The New Covenant is established with the blood of Christ that is the last sacrifice.


YYYYYEEEEEEESSSSS!!!! you are seeing it.
lol drink a cup....
The Jews who were celebrating the Passover would perform this act every year, same time so, every time they would drink "IT" they would have Christ as their remembrance of Passover. Christ came to make a new covenant on the day prophesied. What day should we celebrate... the day God made holy for that purpose or just any time we feel like it? Remember God is quite particular.

Another matter is the Sabbath.
John 20:1 On the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK, which is Sunday.
How do you explain that? Was it you who explained that the tomb was ALREADY empty?

I may well have been the one to say the tomb was empty since..... it was.
So let us look at John 20:1 in context of course and even further.
The Empty Tomb
John 20:1The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulcher.

Luke 24:1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. 2And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. 3And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. 4And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: 5And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? 6He is not here, but is risen...

Mark 16:1And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. 2And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. 3And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? 4And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great. 5And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted. 6And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

You see these first 3 gospel accounts and in each of them when Mary arrives the tomb is empty right now go back and reread the description of the time when Mary was coming to the tomb. Now look at the this last scripture from Matthew;

Matt 28:1In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 2And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. 3His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: 4And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men. 5And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. 6He is not here: for he is risen

Remember Dear that a day for God begins at dark and ends at sunup.....
Christ rose on the fathers Sabbath before the first day of the week. The Father knew what day his son would rise and made it a Holy day from the beginning just as he made a holy day called Passover for the day when his Son would be sacrificed for our abominable sins.
But man in his infinite wisdom for finding ways to disobey God, once again put into motion another way for people dishonor both the Son and the Father.... Christ the Son always honored his Fathers day of rest and even corrected his own brethren for adding extra crap to his Fathers Holy day making it a burden. Let us recount this in context;

Matt 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. 2But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. 3But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 6But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

If the Jews would have followed the intent of the Fathers command about the Sabbath day and all the other commandments then Christ would not have needed to become the sacrifice. Christ as the Son of God always honors the Father and everything that the Father put into play from the beginning.... Why would he even think of Changing what his Father put in place?
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
I don't know that I can agree with that statement. I have seen nothing indicative of Adam and Eve having "immortality" in and of themselves. They had access to the "Tree of Life" until they were banished from the Garden. Thus the "guard" at the gate so to speak.

IOW: "If" they had "immortality", it would have only been the result of access to the "Tree of Life".
Yes. That sounds right to me. However...
I reread Genesis.
If you look at 3:19, the curses, it says that Adam was taken from the ground and was dust, and to dust he would return. This was a CURSE, which means that a blessing had been taken away. The blessing, or preternatural gift, was immortality.

But then in Genesis 3:22 it says that they were banished from the Garden so that they COULD NOT EAT from the Tree of Life.
verse 23 says that God then sent them out to cultivate the ground.
This would serve to stay alive with food.
Were they using the Tree of Life to stay alive?
And NOT eating from it would cause their physical death?

Otherwise, wouldn't this be a conflict??

It's very late here. Please think on this for tomorrow.
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Don't think for a minute that I don't know that you know.
LOL
Does VODKA have anything to do with it?
(Don't know much else)

Do you know why they drink so much vodka in Russia?
To keep warm.
Of course it doesn't work, but it's great for the liquor economy.
 

KBCid

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2011
764
292
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Another thought:
Your verse or Luke 22:19
"He took bread....broke it..and gave it to them saying This is my body which is given for you, DO THIS in remembrance of me."
DO WHAT in remembrance?
It doesn't say to eat the bread, this is inferred from other verses.
Sorry. Just thinking out loud.

Let's look at a review by an attendee of the moment from a later time and let your mind absorb the meaning given in the first paragraph then, look for the answer you seek in the second;

17Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. 18For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 19For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. 21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. 22What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Now let us go back in time.....

Exodus 12:1 And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying, 2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. 3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house: 4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. 5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. 9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. 10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire. 11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's passover.

18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread...

The bread without yeast was symbolic of the word of God without the human additives. Christ is the pure doctrine of God without any earthly additives.

Matt 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven (yeast) of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. 7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.

11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

GG God has gifted you with a sharp mind and a discerning intellect. If you were one of the goats then you would be just another follower of mans additives... but you question many of the things that don't ring true as you should if a part of you resonates with the Spirit of God that came to you through Adam from The Father of all living.

Read these things and be all God made you to be. Do not listen to man or men... even me. Listen to what the still small voice says through your heart.... and test the spirits... if they do not speak after his word then they are not of God
 

epostle1

Well-Known Member
Sep 24, 2012
3,326
507
113
72
Essex
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
But He held up bread.
And the two discples in Emmaus recognized Him upon the breaking of the bread.

Blood - the life was in the blood.
Jesus is the life.
He gives us life or we are dead in sin.

Sometimes I think it's so profound, I can't understand it all.
I don't think God expects us to understand everything, but He expects us to accept things in faith.
John 3:6 – Jesus often used the comparison of “spirit versus flesh” to teach about the necessity of possessing supernatural faith versus a natural understanding. In Mark 14:38 Jesus also uses the “spirit/flesh” comparison. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We must go beyond the natural to understand the supernatural. In 1 Cor. 2:14,3:3; Rom 8:5; and Gal. 5:17, Paul also uses the “spirit/flesh” comparison to teach that unspiritual people are not receiving the gift of faith. They are still “in the flesh.”
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Let's look at a review by an attendee of the moment from a later time and let your mind absorb the meaning given in the first paragraph then, look for the answer you seek in the second;

17Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. 18For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 19For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. 21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. 22What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Now let us go back in time.....

Exodus 12:1 And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying, 2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. 3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house: 4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. 5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. 9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. 10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire. 11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's passover.

18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread...

The bread without yeast was symbolic of the word of God without the human additives. Christ is the pure doctrine of God without any earthly additives.

Matt 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven (yeast) of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. 7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.

11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

GG God has gifted you with a sharp mind and a discerning intellect. If you were one of the goats then you would be just another follower of mans additives... but you question many of the things that don't ring true as you should if a part of you resonates with the Spirit of God that came to you through Adam from The Father of all living.

Read these things and be all God made you to be. Do not listen to man or men... even me. Listen to what the still small voice says through your heart.... and test the spirits... if they do not speak after his word then they are not of God
KBCid
It's 1:30 am here.
Too late for this really good but serious post.
Will read through it tomorrow morning.
Looks really good. I have much respect for you.
Bon Nuit
 

KBCid

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2011
764
292
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Were they using the Tree of Life to stay alive?
And NOT eating from it would cause their physical death?
Did God ever state that there was a tree of life in the garden of eden?
Read the genesis verses carefully and when your done look at the reference in Revelation and note the fruit on the tree of life.....
 

Richard_oti

Well-Known Member
Mar 17, 2008
1,170
739
113
The sacrifice of Christ or lamb of God is supposed to be a yearly "memorial" to replace the original Passover sacrifice since the original was a shadow of things to come. The bread and blood part of the "ritual".

I must admit, when I first read your post, I had to do a double take and ask the question, did I just understand you correctly. After reading your subsequent posts, I have to conclude that I indeed did read you correctly.

As much as I don't really want to, I must challenge you with regard to this. Please note, it is done in love as for a brother. You are free to do with it as you will. Perhaps it has merit, perhaps it does not. I shall try to keep this short and to the point, yet enough for most to perhaps understand.


Question: Can Jesus both have eaten the Passover and been the Passover in the same month of the same year?

Question: How long would it take from the time the lamb is slain, which could only be done in the place where YHVH chose to place haShem (Cf Deut 16:2, 6). Then taken back to the place in which whoever was staying, and was roasted whole, until it was time to eat of it?

IMO, this must be considered, for in the realization of this, it further helps us to understand the timing.

The Passover is a sacrifice, it is not a "day". It is a sacrifice in a prescribed month, on a prescribed day, at a prescribed time(frame). Yes, there is also a "second" Passover in the second month for those away on a journey or "unclean" on account of a dead body (Gee, I wonder why), cf BeMidbar 9 ; 19:11.


"These are the appointed times of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them. In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD's Passover." Leviticus 23:4,5

The idea of Passover as an "appointed time" is expressed by the words of Yeshua as he prepares to meet his own appointed time in Jerusalem. In Mathew 26:17,18, Yeshua calls Passover "my appointed time." In saying this, the Master has identified the appointed time of the Festival of Unleavened Bread as his appointed time.

The Passover (sacrifice) is given to be upon the 14th between the evenings. "Unleavened Bread" does not begin until the 15th. The Passover is to be eaten with unleavened bread, the feast of
unleaven is for seven days only. The Passover seder is the meal that (pardon my expression) *kicks off* the feast so to speak. (cf Exodus 12:8)

Otherwise, it would require 8 days of unleavened bread.


Let's look a little closer:

Exodus 12:6 Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the people of the community of Israel must slaughter them "at twilight" (bein ha-`arebim).

Leviticus 23:5 The LORD'S Passover begins "at twilight" (bein ha-`arebim) on the fourteenth day of the first month. 6 On the fifteenth day of that month the LORD'S Feast of Unleavened Bread begins; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast. 7 On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work.

Numbers 9:3 Celebrate it at the appointed time, "at twilight" (bein ha-`arebim) on the fourteenth day of this month, in accordance with all its rules and regulations."

This fairly well establishes the month and day. It is upon the 14th day of the first month. However we have also encountered the first problem as well:

"At twilight", or bein ha-`arebim; When is this? IMO, we need to establish this for the sake of clarity and in order to achieve a proper understanding of this.

Bein ha-`arebim is "between the-evenings". Does this help us at all? Not really. So let's see if perhaps there is something within the Scriptures that will give us the needed clarification.


Deuteronomy 16:6b there you must sacrifice the Passover "in the evening, when the sun goes down" [ba-`arev ke-vo' ha-shemesh], on the anniversary of your departure from Egypt.

ba-`arev ke-vo' ha-shemesh: In the-evening, as-to_go the-sun.

IMO: This clarifies the meaning or timing of bein ha-arebim.


The Exodus itself will further clarify this as well as help set the timeline;

Exodus 12:29 At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. 30 Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead. 31 During the night Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron and said, "Up! Leave my people, you and the Israelites! Go, worship the LORD as you have requested.

Numbers helps further solidify this: 33:3 The Israelites set out from Rameses on the fifteenth day of the first month, the day after the Passover.

From the Exodus account, we can see that they slew the Passover and applied the blood. Midway through the night, the firstborn were slain. During the night (that very night) Pharaoh summoned Moses and commanded them to leave. According to Numbers, they set out on the 15th, the day after the Passover.

To sum up to this point: The Passover lamb was to be slaughtered on the 14th of Aviv (Nisan), as the sun was to go down (prior to sunset).

According to Josephus, the "sacrifice(s)" were slain between 2 and 5:

Wars of the Jews 6.9.3 (Book 6, Chapter 9, Verse 3) we find; ...upon the coming of that feast which is called the Passover, when they slay their sacrifices, from the ninth hour till the eleventh, but so that a company not less than ten belong to every sacrifice...


I think that perhaps a brief look at the Feast of Unleavened Bread is perhaps warranted here:

Numbers 28:17 On the fifteenth day of this month there is to be a festival; for seven days eat bread made without yeast. 18 On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work.

Leviticus 23:6 On the fifteenth day of that month the LORD'S Feast of Unleavened Bread begins; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast. 7 On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work.

Note: The 15th of Aviv is a shabat shabaton and mele'ket `avodah lo'.

Exodus 12:18 In the first month you are to eat bread made without yeast, "from the evening" (ba-`erev) of the fourteenth day "until the evening" (ba-`arev) of the twenty-first day. 19 For seven days no yeast is to be found in your houses. And whoever eats anything with yeast in it must be cut off from the community of Israel, whether he is an alien or native-born. 20 Eat
nothing made with yeast. Wherever you live, you must eat unleavened bread."

Exodus 12:18 says we are to eat unleavened bread from the evening of the 14th, to the evening of the 21st. Is there a contradiction? Not at all. Is this eight days instead of seven? Not at all. From sunset ending the 14th / beginning the 15th, until sunset *ending* the 21st are the seven
'days'.

In Exodus 12:18, we have ba-`erev' and 'ba-`arev. Why the slight difference with regard to the 'nikud' (vowel points) here? If we go through the Scriptures and do a comparison of these, it becomes very clear. Ba-erev is used of 'evening' following / after that day (after sunset). Ba-`arev is used of 'evening' which ends that day (prior to sunset). That is not as clear as I would like for it to be, hopefully you will understand it as intended.

Take a look at Yom Kippurim for clarity as well.


There are some peculiarities of things as recorded in the New Testament, which seem to cause a great deal of confusion:

1) The Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread are used as almost interchangable terms.

2) The "day of preparation" spoken of *is* the 14th of Aviv.

3) The day following the preparation day, is referred to as a shabat, which is the shabat shabaton that is the 15th of Aviv, the first day of "Unleavened Bread".


Luk 22:7 And the day of unleavened bread came, on which the passover must be sacrificed.

Again, the Passover is sacrificed upon the 14th, "Unleavened Bread" does not begin until the 15th.

John 13:2a The evening meal was being served...
Interesting choice of words.

The bread broken, was artos.

In John 18:28 they wanted to be able to eat the Passover

<time gap, skipping ahead>

Joseph requests body as the evening approaches (Matthew 27:57, Mark 15:42, John 19:38) and the "shabat" (first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread) was about to begin (Luke 23:50-54, cf John 19:31).

How long did it take for Joseph of Arimathaea to go to Pilate, get permission, buy new linen, return, remove the body from the cross, transport the body, wrap the body, and *then* place the body in the tomb? (cf Matthew 27:57-60, Mark 15:42-46, John 19:38)

Sundown, Feast of Unleavened Bread begins, the 15th of Aviv (a Thursday). A day
of no regular work.

<snip>
 

Richard_oti

Well-Known Member
Mar 17, 2008
1,170
739
113
Continued:

...In his letter to the Corinthians, Paul adjured the gentile believers to keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread on the basis that "Messiah our Passover Lamb has been sacrificed." (1 Corinthians 5:7).

Indubitably.


It is a passing statement in a larger context. Paul does not feel the need to explain or defend his words, because his interpretation of Messiah as Passover Lamb was certainly not his own. Clearly, the First Century believers regarded the Passover sacrifice of a lamb as finding a type of Messianic satisfaction in the death of the Master. Judaism has always expected the Messiah to bring the great salvation at the appointed time of Passover. <snip link>

Within the Panarion we find: "even though they tell churchmen a slanderous thing in this regard and say, you abandoned the fathers' Paschal rite in Constantine's time from deference to the emperor, and changed the day to suit the emperor. And some, again, declare with a contentiousness of their own, you changed the Passover to Constantine's birthday"

It is recorded that the passover has handed down / taught to Polycarp by John. Irenaeus who supposedly received that same instruction from Polycarp. But, Irenaeus turned from that instruction, and went on to favor an Easter observance. Polycarp then stood against Irenaeus, to such degree that Eusebius later makes mention of it.
 

pia

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2009
2,003
1,678
113
70
West Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Jesus Christ made it very clear that those who love him will keep his commandments
I do agree with you there, but I have also seen almost everywhere, that people simply don't seem to know HOW to Love the way He loves, and mostly that's because they don't realize that the only way to be able to do that, is once we receive His love into us, to such an extent, that just like a water fountain, only so much can be kept in the reservoir, the rest will burst forth like spring and come out ....If we have truly received his Love and keep doing so, that love will burst forth like a spring of living water, as it's described in The Bible and that Love is supposed to on to helping others to get 'cleansed' by His Word and onto Salvation.
As far as having our garments cleansed, it is not something we can do whatsoever......Only He can get that done for us, I was once shown how that is done, which is how I found out I was even wearing a garment, which I hadn't known till then...Very fascinating, and at a later date I saw, that it describes in Revelation that some have 'spots and wrinkles' in their garments, and some have to get them cleansed, and I am not one of those amazing ones, who have never soiled their garment....I sure must have, as I saw it being cleaned, prior to being put back on me...This obviously took place in the spirit, but the comparison is undeniable, even in our flesh.....
As much as you were saying that the Bible would be silly, I actually think at times it is....Certainly it is silly of us to assume, that we can replace ALL of God, into this one book and not wanting to go on to getting to know Him better, in addition to what has been written about Him, but that is an offer not a demand.
However anyone holds on to Jesus till the end is fine......As long as we don't let go, although He surely won't !
 

jimd

Active Member
Oct 14, 2017
144
73
28
84
catawissa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I agree. It doesn't have anything to do with salvation.
But I do like to discuss everything. Sometimes something is said that opens up new thoughts.

When God made everything, everything was good. God made everything good. In that sense they were not like us. We are not born good -- we are born lost.
There is none righteous.
Romans 3:23
Surely you do not mean a baby that dies is lost do you?

We must become saved by faith.
Ephesians 2:8
Please explain to me how a baby has faith.

But they were not promised immortality as we are.
They were MADE to be immortal. That gift was lost when they ate.
We are born mortal, and must RECEIVE the gift from Jesus who gives us life immortal.
IOW, it's exactly the opposite.
They were promised immortality if they ate from the tree you identified as Christ but they lost it when they ate from the wrong tree just as we are.

You say they did not obey because they had a fleshly nature. So are you saying God made them with the fleshly nature already in them?
Yes, they were flesh, right? They did disobey, Right? Why would they sin if they did not have a sin nature? If you did not have a sin nature do you think satan could entice you to sin/
Are you saying God created sin?
We agreed earlier a sin nature is not a sin. Have you forgotten already?

PS: The scripture says God created sin but that is a matter for another discussion.
 
Last edited:

jimd

Active Member
Oct 14, 2017
144
73
28
84
catawissa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
jimd original post edited: Yes! Then what tree if we eat from/try to live by, without eating from the tree of life, will bring us death? This one is a little more difficult to understand, at least it was for me. If the tree of life is metaphorical for Christ as you agree it is, What is the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil a metaphor for?
Are you talking about the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?
Yes. What metaphorical tree will cause us to die? Hint:What does the word fruit in the scripture refer to many times?
 
Last edited:

pia

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2009
2,003
1,678
113
70
West Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Its speaking of the new earth. All you have to do is go back to the end of the previous chapter to get some context. All those who enter into the city to eat of the tree are those who are in the book of life. If your name isn't in the book of life you get tossed in the lake of fire. There is no alternative for you. So to answer your question, no, they won't be outside the gate or anywhere else on the new earth, because the dogs, sorcerers, harlots, witches, etc at that point have been tossed into the fire.
What is it describing there then? I must admit, I have all sorts of trouble with Revelation..