Calling All "Left Behind" Theology Believers (you up to the challenge?)

[Phoneman777]

I am revisiting this topic, hopefully to a broader audience this time, seeing that the challenge in my original OP has gone unmet. In 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul spoke of the "restrainer" which was preventing the rise of the "Man of Sin" (Antichrist) and Paul said when this restrainer is "taken out of the way", the "Man of Sin" would arise.

"Left Behind" theology claims this restraining power will disappear from the Earth when Jesus sneaks into town and sneaks out with believers, leaving those left behind to deal with a now unrestrained "Man of Sin" who will rise to power and sit in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, make a peace treaty between the Arabs and Jews, and then break the treaty which will usher in Armageddon, etc., etc., etc.

OK, HERE'S COMES THE CHALLENGE:

If it is true the restraining power preventing the rise of this "Man of Sin" is in fact power from God above, then please explain why Paul, when writing to the Thessalonians in his second epistle (an thus to the entire Christian church from his day until the return of Christ) refused to identify who this restrainer was, though he plainly revealed the identity of it to them on a previous visit with them (2 Thessalonians 2:5-6 KJV).

This makes no sense.​

Paul was a man who boldly and fearlessly preached the power of God to the highest pagan authorities of his day, at great peril to his own soul, yet he suddenly becomes timid and secretive when writing to his own people? Why would he pass up such an awesome opportunity to encourage the fledgling, persecuted church of his day with a powerful message that "though we are killed all the day long, yet we are more than conquerors in Him who even now has His celestial boot firmly planted on the neck of the Man of Sin who is powerless to resist the might and power of the Savior!"

Not one word from the man who preached the power of Christ on several continents and if America had been discovered back then, he would have most certainly been over here preaching Christ to the native Americans. Is it possible that Paul kept quiet for a different reason? Yes.

What "Left Behind" prophecy teachers won't tell you is that every single early church father who had anything to say on this subject of the restrainer - men who lived in a time not too far removed from Paul, when his words to the Thessalonians would have been still fresh and widely circulated - all said the exact same thing: that Paul told the early church the restrainer was the Pagan Roman Empire, and they all believed that to be true, as well. Paul would have been clinically insane to include mention of that in a letter to the church because talk of the fall of Rome or any other empire was high treason punishable by death to Paul and his beloved followers. Even church tradition tells us that the early Christians actually prayed for the continuation of the Roman Empire - the same Roman Empire that was throwing them to lions and burning them at the stake. Why? Because they believed that once the Roman Empire fell, the "Man of Sin" Antichrist would arise immediately after and make the persecutions of the Roman Empire look as minor an inconvenience as having to pull aside to wait for the still-cooking french fries.

But, you say, that would mean the restrainer has been gone a long time and that the Antichrist has already risen! Yes, that is exactly what Protestants like Luther, Calvin, Tyndale, Huss, Jerome, Wycliffe, Zwingle, Knox, John and Chuck Wesley, John Williams, the publishers of the KJV Bible, Dean Burgon, and every single Protestant church father from the 16th Century on down to the 19th Century believed and preached from every Protestant pulpit: that the "Man of Sin" Antichrist was the Papacy - the union of the Catholic church and the secular powers - which arose right after Pagan Rome was "taken out of the way" and went on to slaughter indiscriminately any Christian or non-Christian alike who refused to go along with Rome's dogmas emanating from - as Luther put it - the "Roman dunghill of decretals". This prophetic interpretation is known as "Historicism", the preaching of which gave rise to "Preterism" and "Futurism" by the Jesuits who came up with both ideas to counteract what was coming out of the Protestant Reformation. "Left Behind" theology is actually "Jesuit Futurism" theology masquerading as "truth".

Conclusion: If all these millions of Protestants were and are wrong, and the restrainer is still restraining the rise of Antichrist, why oh why did Paul not shout this glorious revelation of this restraining power of God from the housetops instead of allowing 2,000 years of debate and uncertainty? Please leave your ideas about who you think the restrainer is at the door and just answer the question, which is why did not Paul boldly and fearlessly proclaim from the mountaintops the identity of the restrainer, if the restrainer is in fact of God, and not what the entire early church taught - the Roman Empire?

 

[brakelite]

Strange isn't it Phoneman. Catholics will quote the early church fathers ad-infinitum in support of their theology, except that which pinpoints the soon to come Papal system as the Antichrist. Protestants will quote the reformers ad-infinitum in support of their theology, except that which pinpoints the then present Papal system as the Antichrist. The reformers and the early fathers may have differed on a number of theological issues, but this one, which is so hugely important, they agreed on, yet both were wrong? And in many cases, at least as far as the reformers are concerned, for this belief as much as any other, they were willing to die rather than recant. So the Antichrist today,(the little horn of Daniel 7...Paul's man of sin ...John's antichrist...Revelations chapter 13 composite beast...and Babylon the Great), as a direct result of the counter reformation which was instigated by the very power whose reputation was being shredded by this almost unanimous condemnation, is now, despite the testimony of history, prophecy, and the church, some imaginary individual yet to come. And so few have the courage to stand by that testimony, admit they've been deceived by the biggest advertising campaign in human history, and change their views.

Paul's silence on that matter of the restrainer is more powerful than if he named it publicly, and died as a result.

 

[Dcopymope]

I am revisiting this topic, hopefully to a broader audience this time, seeing that the challenge in my original OP has gone unmet. In 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul spoke of the "restrainer" which was preventing the rise of the "Man of Sin" (Antichrist) and Paul said when this restrainer is "taken out of the way", the "Man of Sin" would arise.

"Left Behind" theology claims this restraining power will disappear from the Earth when Jesus sneaks into town and sneaks out with believers, leaving those left behind to deal with a now unrestrained "Man of Sin" who will rise to power and sit in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, make a peace treaty between the Arabs and Jews, and then break the treaty which will usher in Armageddon, etc., etc., etc.

OK, HERE'S COMES THE CHALLENGE:

If it is true the restraining power preventing the rise of this "Man of Sin" is in fact power from God above, then please explain why Paul, when writing to the Thessalonians in his second epistle (an thus to the entire Christian church from his day until the return of Christ) refused to identify who this restrainer was, though he plainly revealed the identity of it to them on a previous visit with them (2 Thessalonians 2:5-6 KJV).

This makes no sense.​

Paul was a man who boldly and fearlessly preached the power of God to the highest pagan authorities of his day, at great peril to his own soul, yet he suddenly becomes timid and secretive when writing to his own people? Why would he pass up such an awesome opportunity to encourage the fledgling, persecuted church of his day with a powerful message that "though we are killed all the day long, yet we are more than conquerors in Him who even now has His celestial boot firmly planted on the neck of the Man of Sin who is powerless to resist the might and power of the Savior!"

Not one word from the man who preached the power of Christ on several continents and if America had been discovered back then, he would have most certainly been over here preaching Christ to the native Americans. Is it possible that Paul kept quiet for a different reason? Yes.

What "Left Behind" prophecy teachers won't tell you is that every single early church father who had anything to say on this subject of the restrainer - men who lived in a time not too far removed from Paul, when his words to the Thessalonians would have been still fresh and widely circulated - all said the exact same thing: that Paul told the early church the restrainer was the Pagan Roman Empire, and they all believed that to be true, as well. Paul would have been clinically insane to include mention of that in a letter to the church because talk of the fall of Rome or any other empire was high treason punishable by death to Paul and his beloved followers. Even church tradition tells us that the early Christians actually prayed for the continuation of the Roman Empire - the same Roman Empire that was throwing them to lions and burning them at the stake. Why? Because they believed that once the Roman Empire fell, the "Man of Sin" Antichrist would arise immediately after and make the persecutions of the Roman Empire look as minor an inconvenience as having to pull aside to wait for the still-cooking french fries.

But, you say, that would mean the restrainer has been gone a long time and that the Antichrist has already risen! Yes, that is exactly what Protestants like Luther, Calvin, Tyndale, Huss, Jerome, Wycliffe, Zwingle, Knox, John and Chuck Wesley, John Williams, the publishers of the KJV Bible, Dean Burgon, and every single Protestant church father from the 16th Century on down to the 19th Century believed and preached from every Protestant pulpit: that the "Man of Sin" Antichrist was the Papacy - the union of the Catholic church and the secular powers - which arose right after Pagan Rome was "taken out of the way" and went on to slaughter indiscriminately any Christian or non-Christian alike who refused to go along with Rome's dogmas emanating from - as Luther put it - the "Roman dunghill of decretals". This prophetic interpretation is known as "Historicism", the preaching of which gave rise to "Preterism" and "Futurism" by the Jesuits who came up with both ideas to counteract what was coming out of the Protestant Reformation. "Left Behind" theology is actually "Jesuit Futurism" theology masquerading as "truth".

Conclusion: If all these millions of Protestants were and are wrong, and the restrainer is still restraining the rise of Antichrist, why oh why did Paul not shout this glorious revelation of this restraining power of God from the housetops instead of allowing 2,000 years of debate and uncertainty? Please leave your ideas about who you think the restrainer is at the door and just answer the question, which is why did not Paul boldly and fearlessly proclaim from the mountaintops the identity of the restrainer, if the restrainer is in fact of God, and not what the entire early church taught - the Roman Empire?

So, are you saying that the papacy is the beast of Revelation and the Vatican is the throne? If the papacy is the man of sin, then why, after 2,000 years, have we not seen those lying signs and wonders that is after the workings of Satan? Are we, according to you, already in the great tribulation spoken of by Jesus?

 

[Phoneman777]

So, are you saying that the papacy is the beast of Revelation and the Vatican is the throne?

Yes, the Papacy is the Beast and with the Pope at its head, as "Historicism" proves beyond the shadow of doubt.

If the papacy is the man of sin, then why, after 2,000 years, have we not seen those lying signs and wonders that is after the workings of Satan?

You haven't seen any "signs and lying wonders"? Have you heard of Fatima, Medjugorje, or any number of other places where "Mary" is supposed to have appeared, places which have been enshrined? I suggest you view the Youtube documentary "Signs and Wonders" by Prof. Walter J. Veith and see what's been going on in Catholicism for centuries: Levitating monks, flower pedals falling from the sky with "virgin and child" grown into (not painted on) the pedals, stigmatas, statues which cry milk and blood, and olive oil more pure than any modern extraction methods can obtain, "Mary" riding escalators after hours on CCTV, appearing in the sky....please watch "Signs and Wonders" and see for yourself. It's now prevalent in the Protestant Ecumenical movement which started in Toronto with all the "healings" and "slain in the spirit" and all the other false revival hocus pocus that charlatains like Benny Hinn are pedaling. What a shame.

Are we, according to you, already in the great tribulation spoken of by Jesus?

What can we call the horrific persecutions of true Christians by the Papacy from the time it ascended to power in 538 A.D. until its "deadly wound" in 1798 A.D. where historians estimate from 50 to 150 MILLION Christian "heretics" were slaughtered by the Papacy? In one such campaign, the Papacy lured these Christian "heretics" to drop their guard by promising them tolerance for their beliefs, but struck them in the dead of night with the sword and slaughtered tens of thousands unawares - known as St. Bartholomew's Massacre. The deaths of so many "heretics" so pleased the Pope that he had a Medal struck commemorating the slaughter. The problem with Christianity today is ignorance of history. We don't know what happened, are never told what happened, and therefore conclude that the tribulation has never yet happened.

Now, the Bible also speaks of Jacob's "time of trouble", which is soon to come upon the world, where we will by faith have to grasp hold on Jesus with both hands as our world comes crashing down around us and the Mark of the Beast boycott goes forth followed by the death decree.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Phoneman, Your words: "If it is true the restraining power preventing the rise of this "Man of Sin" is in fact power from God above, then please explain why Paul, when writing to the Thessalonians in his second epistle (an thus to the entire Christian church from his day until the return of Christ) refused to identify who this restrainer was, though he plainly revealed the identity of it to them on a previous visit with them (2 Thessalonians 2:5-6 KJV)."

In my opinion, there is a false assumption here. Verses 5& 6 do not imply that he earlier revealed the man of sin to them. If anything Paul is referencing vss. 3&4. So I do not see this as a refusal just a prophetic word that even Paul may not have been given the answer to. If it was indeed Rome than Paul would have boldly said so because he did not fear death. The Rome of Paul's day can in no way be associated with the rise of Catholicism hundreds of years later. Let me also clarify that while I am a futurist, I am not a pre-tribber and there is a third alternative that the restrainer is neither Rome nor the Holy Spirit but as you ask, I'll leave who I believe it to be at the door.

 

[Phoneman777]

Hi Phoneman, Your words: "If it is true the restraining power preventing the rise of this "Man of Sin" is in fact power from God above, then please explain why Paul, when writing to the Thessalonians in his second epistle (an thus to the entire Christian church from his day until the return of Christ) refused to identify who this restrainer was, though he plainly revealed the identity of it to them on a previous visit with them (2 Thessalonians 2:5-6 KJV)."

In my opinion, there is a false assumption here. Verses 5& 6 do not imply that he earlier revealed the man of sin to them. If anything Paul is referencing vss. 3&4. So I do not see this as a refusal just a prophetic word that even Paul may not have been given the answer to. If it was indeed Rome than Paul would have boldly said so because he did not fear death. The Rome of Paul's day can in no way be associated with the rise of Catholicism hundreds of years later. Let me also clarify that while I am a futurist, I am not a pre-tribber and there is a third alternative that the restrainer is neither Rome nor the Holy Spirit but as you ask, I'll leave who I believe it to be at the door.

For the record, I never claimed Paul identified the "man of sin" to the Thessalonians during his earlier visit to them. If you re-read what I posted, I said that Paul during his earlier visit to them told the Thessalonians the identity of the "restrainer" (not the "man of sin") because Paul says so himself in verses 5-6:

"Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth (the Restraining power), that he might be revealed in his time."

Paul said they knew "what withholdeth" because he told them "what withholdeth" when he was earlier with them. If the Restrainer is an Agent of Holiness, whatever that might be, then why did Paul refuse to boldly proclaim this power of God, as he was known to do in every single other case in Paul's record? It is b/c the Restrainer is not an Agent of Holiness, but was pagan Rome, just as the Early Church taught on this issue. None of them claimed that the Restrainer was some Agent of Holiness, like is claimed today by Jesuit Futurism when they say, "Oh, the Restrainer is 'Michael' or the 'Holy Spirit' or 'the Holy Spirit filled church', etc.

Paul did not fear death, but he was no fool either. Only a fool would send letters speaking about the fall of the Roman Empire, and not consider the possibility that the entire Christian church would be exterminated if those letters fell into the wrong hands.

 

[Trekson]

I see your point but your theory still doesn't make sense. Evil does not hold back evil. The whole purpose of the man of sin would be or is to destroy the church. The devil isn't stupid either. From his point of view the sooner christianity could have been defeated the better, so there would be no purpose for pagan Rome to restrain, their leader, the devil.

 

[brakelite]

I see your point but your theory still doesn't make sense. Evil does not hold back evil. The whole purpose of the man of sin would be or is to destroy the church. The devil isn't stupid either. From his point of view the sooner christianity could have been defeated the better, so there would be no purpose for pagan Rome to restrain, their leader, the devil.

Nebuchadnezzar, over time, came to a true realization of the sovereignty of God. The lessons were hard, both for him and Daniel and his friends, but all were lessons that brought humility to the king and true glory to the God of heaven. Nebuchadnezzar said:1 ¶ Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you.
2 I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me.
3 How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.

Despite a dream in which he was warned concerning pride...17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
After 7 years in the wilderness, he finally came to his senses and proclaimed...
34 ¶ And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.
37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

My point is this. No ruling power on this earth is independent of God's will. Although not everything the secular (or religious powers for that matter) do are in accordance to God's will, the over-arching sovereignty of God and His purposes for mankind are established. Daniel 2 , 7, and 8 declare prophetically the coming empires from Daniel's time. Babylon, Meda/Persia, Greece, Rome, and then the clay/Roman mix as the symbol for the church/state fusion of the papacy. That the papacy could not develop until pagan Rome dissolve, is clear prophetically and historically. The parallel in Daniel 7 is the little horn (papacy) being unable to grow until such time as its host, the 4th beast (pagan Rome), allow its growth.
It is entirely in harmony with prophecy, with the character and sovereignty of God, and with history, that God may choose to use a secular power in order to delay the full establishment of an even worse power in order to ensure His people are adequately prepared for its establishment.
The very same could be said of the situation we have today. Most of us are aware that the NWO is being prepared through various means and we fully expect it to be established in our, or our children's generation. Yet are we ready as a people? Has the gospel truly been broadcast world-wide as it needs and must be done? Are God's people strong enough to stand in these last days against the deceptions and persecutions to come? I do not believe we are. So what is standing in the way of a global community today? What is standing in the way of a full ecumenical world order of religious church/state fusion...the final manifestation of the Antichrist power? Is it not the individual sovereignty of nations and the peoples thereof? Is it not that the controlled conflicts of the world today are orchestrated to alter the mindset of people to discard their sovereignty in favor of "peace and safety"? Through secular authorities, God is holding back the final events in order to adequately prepare His people. Just as he prolonged the life of pagan Rome before the full establishment of the papal apostasy, so He is prolonging the life of sovereign states today before the full establishment of global apostasy to come. We know its coming soon, and God will not hold back forever. Time to prepare now.

 

[Trekson]

Sorry, but I really believe Rome and the papacy are irrelevant regarding prophecy. I do not hold to the historical point of view. Perhaps a pope could be the false prophet but nothing else prophetically describes a system. The a/c is an individual, not a religion. IMO, Dan. 12:1 and Rev. 12:7-9 reveals who the restrainer is. The Book of Revelations is about future events that haven't happened yet so any vague similarities to historical events would at best be 'types" and at worst just coincidence. Anything in Revelations that could be stretched to the point of seeming to have been fulfilled will be repeated but on a much grander scale.

 

[brakelite]

Sorry, but I really believe Rome and the papacy are irrelevant regarding prophecy. I do not hold to the historical point of view. Perhaps a pope could be the false prophet but nothing else prophetically describes a system. The a/c is an individual, not a religion. IMO, Dan. 12:1 and Rev. 12:7-9 reveals who the restrainer is. The Book of Revelations is about future events that haven't happened yet so any vague similarities to historical events would at best be 'types" and at worst just coincidence. Anything in Revelations that could be stretched to the point of seeming to have been fulfilled will be repeated but on a much grander scale.

You are completely casting aside the blood bought testimony of centuries of eye-witnesses, martyrs for the true faith, and astute Biblical scholars who hadn't been deceived by the Jesuit's futurist counter-reformation agenda which diverted the collective finger pointing of the reformers away from the true Antichrist, the papal system, toward some future imaginary individual. I hate to share some bad news with you, but you are also deceived.
There is an overwhelming preponderant amount of prophetic evidence in full harmony with history that affirms the absolute accurate identification of the Papal system as the Antichrist of scripture. Many of those reformers spent hours and hours every day in prayer. Many had doctorates and were fluent in several languages. Their insights into truth that brought freedom for millions of Christians since from the errors of Rome came at the cost of their lives. Christians today think that 10 minutes when they are free is sufficient to understand truth. They read Daniel and Revelation and come up with all manner of interpretations, so that today within the church, unlike the reformation churches, we have dozens of interpretations of who the antichrist is and how he will appear. Not to prayerfully study prophecy, in particular Daniel and Revelation, would be a grave mistake. God has included such books in Holy Scripture for a purpose. He wants a people prepared, wise, and impervious to the most dangerous deceptions that will arise in the last days. In these two books in particular, (and in Matt 24 and others) God has provided much detailed information as to the character, the nature, and the practices of the enemy, and his arch representative, the 'antichrist'. From this detail we can garner enough information to accurately identify who it is. The reformers did it, and well known students and teachers of the Bible since their day agreed...it is only in the last 100 years that their teachings on this subject have been cast aside, unbelieved, and made ineffective in favour of clairvoyant prognostications on some imagined evil 'super-devil' of the future who they think they will recognise immediately and not be deceived. Already they are deceived!!!
However, if you or anyone else can up with some good sound scriptural reasons why the reformers were wrong, then, and only then, can we confidently cast aside over 1000 years of agreed testimony and proclaim them all in error, and the reformation a mistake. Until then, the RCC stands as the only viable candidate.

 

[Dcopymope]

Sorry, but I really believe Rome and the papacy are irrelevant regarding prophecy. I do not hold to the historical point of view. Perhaps a pope could be the false prophet but nothing else prophetically describes a system. The a/c is an individual, not a religion. IMO, Dan. 12:1 and Rev. 12:7-9 reveals who the restrainer is. The Book of Revelations is about future events that haven't happened yet so any vague similarities to historical events would at best be 'types" and at worst just coincidence. Anything in Revelations that could be stretched to the point of seeming to have been fulfilled will be repeated but on a much grander scale.

Who is the anti-Christ, 'the beast', supposed to be to you? Phoneman claims that the papacy is the beast of revelation, yet, as you say, the things that are supposed to occur before its rise out of the sea hasn't even happened. I don't recall the third of the earths trees and sea creatures for example, ever getting destroyed as described in Revelation 8. Although some who may take some form of the historical view of end times prophecy will stretch out certain events to ridiculous extents to make it seem this is so.

I've heard it all before, about the papacy supposedly being the beast, and it has never made any sense at all to me. I'll keep things real simple for all of you. Revelation makes it very clear that the beast represents a conglomeration of all the nations under the rule of the anti-Christ. Hopefully, you can all at least agree to this simple observation. As for the "anti-Christ" itself, I don't have to even use the term "anti-Christ" because I already know his name. I don't have to guess at who the anti-Christ is because Revelation tells me who that is. His name is a fallen angel called Apollyon. I know this to be so primarily because of one verse, and that's Revelation 11:7. Allow me to demonstrate this simple observation, and let reason prevail, and not vague private interpretations of history being stretched to the nth degree.

(Revelation 9:1-3) "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. {2} And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. {3} And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power."

(Revelation 9:11) "And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon."

(Revelation 11:7) "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

I don't recall any of this ever happening in the history of creation, despite what some may claim. Now as for the beast itself, like I said, its a symbolic representation of all nations brought under the rule of Apollyon, who, by the time we get to Revelation 13, is now simply referred to by the names "the beast" and the "little horn". In the YouTube videos below, I explain who is who and what is what as it pertains to the subject of this thread. Just keep this simple observation in mind as you are watching the videos that is all too overlooked by the vast majority of Christians.

There is a difference between how Daniel describes the beast and how John describes the beast in Revelation, which I also clearly explain in the last link below. The difference is that Daniel describes the beast as four diverse beast kingdoms that rise out of the sea, at which point the little horn then rises out of the ten horned beast. But by the time we get to Revelation 13, John describes those four beasts as unified, as one, which is well after the arrival of Apollyon, "the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit". I don't make something that's so crystal clear to be more complex than it is. I believe that the ability to comprehend what you read should be a fairly simple task unless we are talking about rocket science.

The Antichrist in the book of Daniel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jg-fpPFaZec

The four beasts of Daniel rising: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT5EDq55HEg

The rider on the white horse hard at work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBLwk5jcMnU

The Brexit vote and global government: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5LN-gmdXus

 

[Trekson]

Hi brakelite, There are a couple of scriptures I can think of. Dan. 12:7, Rev.12:14, 13:5. All portray a time period of 3 1/2 years, not thousands. Unless you're SDA and falsely belief in the day for a year theory, think about that. Dcopymote has pointed out several relevant facts. Most of what has been prophesied has not occurred yet. Matt. 24:21 is pretty specific that it would be a short term event not a multi-millennial one. The abomination has not yet happened and no it did not occur in AD70.

Here's one reason why some people wrongly thought the a/c had come. The devil you know must be the a/c. Historically, if christians are being killed than it must mean the a/c is somewhere on the scene. The first church thought it was political Rome, later believers thought it was religious Rome, in modern times, Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, and Saddam Hussein have all been accused of being the a/c. All are types or clues as to what we might look for when the time does come. The MAN of sin is just that, a man, not a "system. Rome doesn't really have the power it used to. Catholicism is becoming irrelevant and perhaps because of that they will be among the first to align with the real a/c. The false prophet will point to this individual as a Savior similar to Christ and act almost as his PR guy, at times. A role a pope might fit nicely.

I have spent almost three decades studying prophecy, not ten minutes and I've made up my own mind based upon my own research, not on what other people have said. I was raised pre-trib but there came a time when God led me to study the scriptures w/o any pre-conceived notions, assuming I knew nothing and start all over from the beginning. I am no longer pre-trib so I suggest you try it. Eliminate Rome as a possibility start from scratch and see where God leads you. I guarantee your results will be different.

 

[brakelite]

Decoding the Book of Daniel. Chapter 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM1T_37FRqU&list=PLgl7ryoHpladoHKYmQxhzjihaQAM8cca7

and chapter 7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhWYGXyhQtg&list=PLgl7ryoHpladoHKYmQxhzjihaQAM8cca7&index=2

These are full blown lectures...not 10 minute sound-bites.

 

[brakelite]

I have also studied this topic for decades, and have come to the following conclusions.
Point 1. Current events are in perfect harmony with Bible prophecy.
Point 2. The current controlled conflicts between various factions, (thesis/antithesis) both political, religious,fiscal, and ideological, will bring about a climate in which the people of the world will become so fed up with the status quo that they will accept, even demand, the one world government that the elites want. (Synthesis).
3. This one world government, or NWO that politicians have been expostulating for years, in Biblical prophecy is a union of the church with the state power.
4. It is in appearance a Christian church, but in reality and at its core, Luciferian...in harmony with all the secret societies and governments that support it.
5. It enforces, through legislation, religious dogma
6. The head of this NWO will be the Pope...maybe this one, maybe not. It is significant that this Pope is the first Jesuit, an organization long dedicated to world dominion for the papacy, and sworn to the destruction of the right of individuals to freedom of conscience...religious liberty. The Jesuit motto or dialectic, ""Ordo Ab Chao", became also the motto for the Freemasons.
7. Refusal to submit to the new religious laws and to the new order, will result in punitive punishments including the removal of an individuals right to work and earn a living, buy, sell, and own property.
8. All the above is affirmed by scripture, and can be clearly seen being played out in current events today.

BTW, I am SDA. I have been in Pentecostal churches so am familiar with other theories...it was when I started from scratch that I ended up with my current beliefs....the Bible interpreting itself...and also, it wasn't SDAs who first came up with the day/year concept for prophetic time.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Brakelite, I agree with points 1-3, however points 4-8 I don't. The one thing you must consider is prophecy for the most part is all about the Jews/Israel. I believe, in the beginning, the man who will become the a/c will be accepted by Israel as their Messiah. If there is a future ten nation confederacy it will be a revival from the ancient Eastern Roman Empire, not the western. This man then must be at least half Jewish of the line of David. Your average pope wouldn't fit the bill. He will be a political leader first, then become a religious one through his false prophet and the whore of Babylon, which, imo, is the US, not the RCC. His purpose is to usurp the worship due to the Trinity and receive it for himself. No one, imo, in modern times, starting from scratch with zero outside influence would come up with your beliefs that is shared by the SDA.

 

[Phoneman777]

I see your point but your theory still doesn't make sense. Evil does not hold back evil. The whole purpose of the man of sin would be or is to destroy the church. The devil isn't stupid either. From his point of view the sooner christianity could have been defeated the better, so there would be no purpose for pagan Rome to restrain, their leader, the devil.

You make what appears to be an excellent point, but using "evil doesn't hold back evil" as an argument for rejecting Pagan Rome as the Restrainer is subjective reasoning: it implies that the Restrainer must consciously, knowingly, and proactively exercise force in preventing the rise of the "man of sin", as riot police might lock arms in formation to repel the lawless.

However, your reasoning subjectively dismisses the fact that just the mere existence of Pagan Rome with its Caesars occupying the throne - a "morally neutral" circumstance which is neither good nor evil - was enough to restrain the Bishop of Rome from taking the throne and commencing the 1,260 years reign of the Papacy. Unfortunately, the notion that the Restrainer must be morally good comes from years of prophecy teachers ignoring Historicism and what the Early Church taught, and speculating as to what "Agent of Holiness" the Restrainer might be.

The Early Church taught that this circumstance - the mere existence of Pagan Rome - was the means by which the "man of sin" was restrained from arising, and when Pagan Rome would be "taken out of the way", which was accomplished at the hands of invading barbarian hordes, the "man of sin" would arise.

Trekson, I would be willing to bet that you have not reviewed the writings of the Early Church Fathers and what they said was the prevailing interpretation of their time. I hope it is not due to you having circled the intellectual wagons around your Futurist ideas out of fear of perhaps discovering that they may not stand the test of Historicism's scrutiny. If we truly are confident in our beliefs, then we will welcome without fear any challenge that may present itself. In my own case, I abandoned Futurism for Historicism because I cared only where the Holy Spirit led, and not about any unwelcomed destinations to which He might lead me. I'm sure you're of the same mind, as well. Please take some time to consider the other side of the argument, especially point 5:

https://nicklasarthur.wordpress.com/2014/04/11/early-church-fathers-were-historicist-h-grattan-guinness/

 

[Phoneman777]

Nebuchadnezzar, over time, came to a true realization of the sovereignty of God. The lessons were hard, both for him and Daniel and his friends, but all were lessons that brought humility to the king and true glory to the God of heaven. Nebuchadnezzar said:1 ¶ Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you.
2 I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me.
3 How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.

Despite a dream in which he was warned concerning pride...17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
After 7 years in the wilderness, he finally came to his senses and proclaimed...
34 ¶ And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.
37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

My point is this. No ruling power on this earth is independent of God's will. Although not everything the secular (or religious powers for that matter) do are in accordance to God's will, the over-arching sovereignty of God and His purposes for mankind are established. Daniel 2 , 7, and 8 declare prophetically the coming empires from Daniel's time. Babylon, Meda/Persia, Greece, Rome, and then the clay/Roman mix as the symbol for the church/state fusion of the papacy. That the papacy could not develop until pagan Rome dissolve, is clear prophetically and historically. The parallel in Daniel 7 is the little horn (papacy) being unable to grow until such time as its host, the 4th beast (pagan Rome), allow its growth.
It is entirely in harmony with prophecy, with the character and sovereignty of God, and with history, that God may choose to use a secular power in order to delay the full establishment of an even worse power in order to ensure His people are adequately prepared for its establishment.
The very same could be said of the situation we have today. Most of us are aware that the NWO is being prepared through various means and we fully expect it to be established in our, or our children's generation. Yet are we ready as a people? Has the gospel truly been broadcast world-wide as it needs and must be done? Are God's people strong enough to stand in these last days against the deceptions and persecutions to come? I do not believe we are. So what is standing in the way of a global community today? What is standing in the way of a full ecumenical world order of religious church/state fusion...the final manifestation of the Antichrist power? Is it not the individual sovereignty of nations and the peoples thereof? Is it not that the controlled conflicts of the world today are orchestrated to alter the mindset of people to discard their sovereignty in favor of "peace and safety"? Through secular authorities, God is holding back the final events in order to adequately prepare His people. Just as he prolonged the life of pagan Rome before the full establishment of the papal apostasy, so He is prolonging the life of sovereign states today before the full establishment of global apostasy to come. We know its coming soon, and God will not hold back forever. Time to prepare now.

Brother, it is PRECISELY due to selfish pride of the nations and the resulting jockeying for position which is the main hindrance for why they can't get their final NWO act together and usher in the most horrific era the world will ever see, and I praise God that by allowing this delay, He mercifully extends opportunity for His own to spread still further the "everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people."

 

[Phoneman777]

Who is the anti-Christ, 'the beast', supposed to be to you? Phoneman claims that the papacy is the beast of revelation, yet, as you say, the things that are supposed to occur before its rise out of the sea hasn't even happened. I don't recall the third of the earths trees and sea creatures for example, ever getting destroyed as described in Revelation 8. Although some who may take some form of the historical view of end times prophecy will stretch out certain events to ridiculous extents to make it seem this is so.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can open a symbolic book, read things like "a third part of the trees" and then look around to see whether one third of the earth's trees have been destroyed. Revelation is SYMBOLIC. The "third parts" must be interpreted to mean something other than "one third of all the trees and sea creatures".

"Trumpets" are a symbol for "war" (Jeremiah 4:19 KJV) and the Seven Trumpets refer to the military campaigns against God's people, the first of which brought about the destruction of Israel and the "third part of the trees" refers to the widespread destruction of the men of Israel, just as the men of Israel were depicted as "trees" in Judges 9. The rest of the trumpets continue to depict further military history that the church would experience, including the 8th century rise of Islam and the assaults against Christianity by them. Everyone thinks that Islam is just getting around to fitting in somewhere in prophecy because they are mesmerized by Jesuit Futurism and wholly willfully ignorant of Historicism.

This "one third of all the earth's trees", grass, creatures, etc. does not refer to a literal "one third of all..." because if it did, then Jesus was a LIAR when He said the prophecies were "signified" which means "symbolic" in chapter 1 verse 1 of Revelation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Trekson]

Hi Phoneman, See, here's the thing... Your words: "was enough to restrain the Bishop of Rome from taking the throne and commencing the 1,260 years reign of the Papacy."

I respectfully reject what you guys call, if I remember this correctly, "the year for a day principle" and I will tell you why. My Webster's defines "principle" as "a fundamental truth, law or postulate". If it is a "prophetic law" established by God then every single time the word "day" is mentioned in a prophecy then it MUST mean a year! If at any time it can be shown that a day meant a day then IT CAN NO LONGER BE A PRINCIPLE AND MUST BE REJECTED AS AN ACCURATE STANDARD OF DETERMINING BIBLE PROPHECY. It's really that simple. I will offer three examples of when a day meant a day.

Gen. 7:4 - "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth."

Matt. 12:40 - "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Rev. 11:9 - "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves."

Look, God is not the author of confusion nor does he play mind games. If He meant a year, why would he use the word "day". He had no problem using the word "year" in these prophecies: Gen. 15:13, Gen. 41:26-27 to name a couple. So sorry, there is no such thing as a year for a day principle!

 

[Dcopymope]

It never ceases to amaze me how people can open a symbolic book, read things like "a third part of the trees" and then look around to see whether one third of the earth's trees have been destroyed. Revelation is SYMBOLIC. The "third parts" must be interpreted to mean something other than "one third of all the trees and sea creatures".

"Trumpets" are a symbol for "war" (Jeremiah 4:19 KJV) and the Seven Trumpets refer to the military campaigns against God's people, the first of which brought about the destruction of Israel and the "third part of the trees" refers to the widespread destruction of the men of Israel, just as the men of Israel were depicted as "trees" in Judges 9. The rest of the trumpets continue to depict further military history that the church would experience, including the 8th century rise of Islam and the assaults against Christianity by them. Everyone thinks that Islam is just getting around to fitting in somewhere in prophecy because they are mesmerized by Jesuit Futurism and wholly willfully ignorant of Historicism.

This "one third of all the earth's trees", grass, creatures, etc. does not refer to a literal "one third of all..." because if it did, then Jesus was a LIAR when He said the prophecies were "signified" which means "symbolic" in chapter 1 verse 1 of Revelation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am well aware of the fact that Revelation is meant to be a symbolic representation of prophetic events, anybody with a working brain can see that. However, this does not mean I am supposed to extrapolate the terms "trumpet", or "signified" to mean every single word spoken thereof in the book cannot be viewed literally, or is simply symbolic for "war", and nothing else. John calls the book a revelation for a reason. It means that what was once spoken of in parables is no longer a mystery, its been revealed. When John speaks of the four angels being loosed to kill a third part of men in Revelation 9 with the sound of the sixth trumpet, he is simply giving an mathematical estimate as to exactly how many were killed, its not exact. "A third part of men" simply means a good chunk of the human population. I can literally estimate based on today's current population that "a third part of men" will be at least two billion people eviscerated. The same goes with the third trumpet where he estimates a third of the earths water being poisoned. Taking the verse in context, we see that, despite the use of the word "trumpet" this one clearly has nothing to do with the waters being poisoned because of war. It doesn't say God rose up a nation to poison the water, this is a star sent directly by the angels tossing "a great star", not from a nation, or from man, but from heaven, "burning as it were a lamp", which is much more likely to be a meteorite, a rock on fire then it having anything to do with some squabble between nations, as it gives no such implications. I have no time for this legalism, and neither does God.

Hi Phoneman, See, here's the thing... Your words: "was enough to restrain the Bishop of Rome from taking the throne and commencing the 1,260 years reign of the Papacy."

I respectfully reject what you guys call, if I remember this correctly, "the year for a day principle" and I will tell you why. My Webster's defines "principle" as "a fundamental truth, law or postulate". If it is a "prophetic law" established by God then every single time the word "day" is mentioned in a prophecy then it MUST mean a year! If at any time it can be shown that a day meant a day then IT CAN NO LONGER BE A PRINCIPLE AND MUST BE REJECTED AS AN ACCURATE STANDARD OF DETERMINING BIBLE PROPHECY. It's really that simple. I will offer three examples of when a day meant a day.

Gen. 7:4 - "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth."

Matt. 12:40 - "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Rev. 11:9 - "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves."

Look, God is not the author of confusion nor does he play mind games. If He meant a year, why would he use the word "day". He had no problem using the word "year" in these prophecies: Gen. 15:13, Gen. 41:26-27 to name a couple. So sorry, there is no such thing as a year for a day principle!

Yeah, here we go with the word games. Somehow, a day to these people means a year when it clearly says no such thing. Like I said, I don't play these mind games with the word of God, where people will take one little verse, even one word, to rob a chapter, or even an entire book of its context. I keep the word of God simple and to the point. This is standard operating procedure with many, heathen and "christian" alike, and I have grown quite tiresome of it. The word of God is being treated like some law, or some regulation, where every word is picked apart with a fine toothpick by an army of lawyers in a court of law.