Calling all Protectors of Truth!

[BreadOfLife]

Is this a judgment based on personal knowledge? Do you have a messenger from God speaking to you about who has and who does not have real conviction?

"For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Matt 7:2

Was not our friend @aspen simply trying to gather people together in what they do have from God that is good, without regard to church affiliations, rather than according to the evil they think they are able to see in others? How many others have tried to do that on this forum lately?

No - he is judging people on this forum by the same measuring stick that you are condemning me.
Standing up for truth is anything BUT egocentric.

 

[FHII]

No - he is judging people on this forum by the same measuring stick that you are condemning me.

In his initial post, it seemed to me Aspen didn't judge any particular person but the attitudes people have (as he perceived). When you jumped in, as usual, it turned into a fight between individuals.

I am not ashamed to admit that I admire BOL for not being a reed shaking in the wind. He truly is standing up for what he believes, even though I myself disagree and others obviously do as well. And actually, if you get past the abrasiveness... He makes some good thinking points from time to time. Furthermore, if you ask him a question with sincerity, he will share what he knows amicably.

As someone who has had knock-down drag-out debates with him... He can be a pretty good guy.

Standing up for truth is anything BUT egocentric

I actually agree with this. How you do however, is important.

Whether we like it or not, the pharisees had a lot of things right; not everything... But a lot. Jesus even admitted that much. He didn't however, like their hypocracy and lact of true understanding due to their superior (false) status. They followed the law, but lacked kindness, compassion and humility.

After reading follow ups to his OP, I sense this is what Aspen is getting at.

 

[pia]

Is this a judgment based on personal knowledge?

Here is yet another example of how some believers judge other believers, making themselves blasphemers...Blaspheming is not exclusive to things about God, it covers ALL things what so ever men speak in ignorance, while maintaining it as truth.......Speaking of what they have no understanding of......

 

[amadeus]

No - he is judging people on this forum by the same measuring stick that you are condemning me.
Standing up for truth is anything BUT egocentric.

Condemning? If you will read my post carefully you will see that I only asked questions and quoted one verse of scripture. How does that add up to condemnation?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Condemning? If you will read my post carefully you will see that I only asked questions and quoted one verse of scripture. How does that add up to condemnation?

It was an unfair judgement.
I have had a longer history of correspondence with Aspen than you have and was speaking based on our history of conversations.

 

[amadeus]

It was an unfair judgement.
I have had a longer history of correspondence with Aspen than you have and was speaking based on our history of conversations.

It was still only expressed in questions. You think you know him so well that you are qualified to judge. I am fairly certain that he would disagree. Only God has without a doubt the correct answer. He probably did not consult with either one of you get it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It was still only expressed in questions. You think you know him so well that you are qualified to judge. I am fairly certain that he would disagree. Only God has without a doubt the correct answer. He probably did not consult with either one of you get it.

Scripture tells us that by their fruits we shall know them (Matt. 7:15-20).
It doesn't say that we can judge their hearts - but by their words and actions, we can judge what they've said and done.

 

[amadeus]

Scripture tells us that by their fruits we shall know them (Matt. 7:15-20).
It doesn't say that we can judge their hearts - but by their words and actions, we can judge what they've said and done.

Absolutely, but even to judge fruits can be problematic. What appears to be a good apple to one may appear rotten to another. God always knows the heart of the matter. His sheep do recognize voice as well as the voice of a stranger. Scripture calls it discernment.

There are sheep and there are goats.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Absolutely, but even to judge fruits can be problematic. What appears to be a good apple to one may appear rotten to another. God always knows the heart of the matter. His sheep do recognize voice as well as the voice of a stranger. Scripture calls it discernment.

There are sheep and there are goats.

To answer your text in RED above - truth is truth - no matter WHO believes i.
The same is true for a lie.

 

[amadeus]

To answer your text in RED above - truth is truth - no matter WHO believes i.
The same is true for a lie.

Of course you are correct, but who knows which is which in each and every case?
Give God the glory!
See you around the forum!

 

[aspen]

Nevermind that the OP was speaking generally rather than addressing a specific person - carly simon keeps singing in my ear.......

 

[aspen]

No - because you are claiming that standing up for the truth is egocentric which is preposterous.

As I've stated on many occasions - it's not for the people who lie that I'm on this forum that I'm here. It's so that those who come here sincerely seeking the truth don't get seduced by the lies and fairy tales. I couldn't care less if it was coming from me or somebody else - as long as the truth isn't camouflaged by lies.

YOU don't like me because you find me "rude" - but I never see you attack those who lie with the same fervor.
What complete hypocrisy . . .

The real enemy of the Catholic Church

Vatican Arrests Its Own Diplomat After Child Pornography Probe - HuffPost Vatican Arrests Its Own Diplomat After Child Pornography Probe — HuffPost

These are the true anticatholics within the church and like the OT prophets, Catholics should be focused on cleaning up our church and rooting out the enemies within, not chasing around people on the outside and trying to control their opinions....

 

[brakelite]

The real enemy of the Catholic Church

Vatican Arrests Its Own Diplomat After Child Pornography Probe - HuffPost Vatican Arrests Its Own Diplomat After Child Pornography Probe — HuffPost

These are the true anticatholics within the church and like the OT prophets, Catholics should be focused on cleaning up our church and rooting out the enemies within, not chasing around people on the outside and trying to control their opinions....

Yes. I don't get that when someone outside criticises a pedophile within, the one outside is criticised for being anti-Catholic. Makes no sense...appears to be that the one outside doing the criticising is more evil than the pedophile. Then of course will come the retort, 'what about the pedophiles in your church?" which is a fair enough question. Well, what about them?

 

[brakelite]

Yes. I don't get that when someone outside criticises a pedophile within, the one outside is criticised for being anti-Catholic. Makes no sense...appears to be that the one outside doing the criticising is more evil than the pedophile. Then of course will come the retort, 'what about the pedophiles in your church?" which is a fair enough question. Well, what about them?

I might add, that if I am pointing out the negatives in your church, why is it assumed that the reason I am doing so is because I hate the people in that church? Would it not be for your personal well being, and that of your children and grand-children, that I point out the dangers in your midst? If I cared not for you, why would I be warning you of that which could hurt you?
It is not the presence of corrupt minds in the church that is evidence of apostasy, for all churches have weeds (tares) in them...it is the refusal to acknowledge that corruption, and the reluctantance to exercise any action to protect your own people from that corruption that is evidence of apostasy.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The real enemy of the Catholic Church
Vatican Arrests Its Own Diplomat After Child Pornography Probe - HuffPost Vatican Arrests Its Own Diplomat After Child Pornography Probe — HuffPost
These are the true anticatholics within the church and like the OT prophets, Catholics should be focused on cleaning up our church and rooting out the enemies within, not chasing around people on the outside and trying to control their opinions....

I don't care about the "opinions" of dissident Catholics like you. It's only when those opinions pervert the truth and keep others from knowing it.

 

[aspen]

I don't care about the "opinions" of dissident Catholics like you. It's only when those opinions pervert the truth and keep others from knowing it.

I see you are agreeing with yourself again.

If being a faithful Catholic means devoting all my time standing on my head and engaging in the ‘reason yoga’ and the mental gymnastics necessary to explain the evil allowed to exist in my church, while kissing the ass of the Vatican Curia, then I have indeed been exposed as a dissident and pray I will continue to be one as long as I am Catholic.

 

[Taken]

Aspen

What's wrong with believing truth? Whats wrong with not standing up for it?

I don't believe Aspen was trying to convey either of those things as an issue.

But rather...Conduct; name-calling, accusations, acting like fellowship, exchanging is some sort of contest.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

What we need are more people who are intolerant of lies - and not wishy-washy in their convictions.

What we need more of is UNDERSTANDING!

Scripture is FULL of:

MEN..Flat out rejecting God.
MEN..who learned, believed, trusted the Lord.
MEN..teaching about the Lord.
MEN...who were Learning about the Lord.
MEN...deciding to believe or not in the Lord.
MEN...who listened, followed, then stopped.
MEN...who believed but didn't yet Trust.
MEN..who believed but had not committed.
MEN...who were being taught how to Trust.

Today is no different.
EXCEPT THAT:
MEN...in Scripture teaching were armed with the TRUTH.
MEN...today teaching are OFTEN armed with opinions and LACK of UNDERSTANDING!

The Scripture IS FULL of all different individual men....AND NOT ALL THINGS in Scripture APPLY the same to EVERY MAN.

The MAN who rejects God, who doesn't trust, God, who believes BUT has not become Converted, ARE not the SAME as a man WHO Believes and HAS become forgiven, saved, born again, made Whole, and acceptable to God.

The SAME Scriptures DO NOT APPLY to ALL men!!!

It does NOT MEAN ALL SCRIPTURE IS NOT TRUE. ALL Scripture IS TRUE. BUT NOT ALL SCRIPTURE APPLIES THE SAME TO ALL MEN.

YOU apply to you, what you have been taught.

Others, such as myself, APPLY to myself, according to WHAT I have DONE, and what I TRUST the Lord has accomplished IN ME.

The SAME Scriptures DO NOT APPLY to you and to myself.

You honestly believe YOUR Salvation will be accomplished at the end of your physical life.
That you MUST accomplish certain WORKS to receive YOUR Salvation.

That IS precisely taught in Scripture BY "GOD" the father; and APPLIES to Jews....then and today.

I however DID not SUBJECT myself to thee JEWISH GOD, the "FATHER". I subjected myself TO: Jesus, the Lord, the Son of God, thee Christ, thee Messiah of God the Father.

He; Thee Christ the Lord Jesus; OFFERED Jews and Gentiles a WAY, to BECOME Forgiven, SavED, Born Again, and Freed FROM SIN....FOREVER, being Kept WITH "HIM"!!

I accepted HIS OFFERING!
I subjected MYSELF "TO" HIM.
I TRUST His Word IS TRUE, without question.

So ALL the Scriptures YOU run and grab THAT APPLY TO YOU.....DO NOT APPLY TO ME!

It does not MAKE you right and everyone else wrong and a liar.

It simply MAKES OUR Choices DIFFERENT, and the Applicablility of Scriptures DIFFERENT.

Jesus DID NOT DESTROY THE LAW. Jews today STILL (not all), subject themselves TO God the Father, and reject Jesus is the Lord and Christ Messiah. They STILL sin, they repeatedly require forgiveness. They WORK their way TOWARD Salvation.

You teach the same things.

But unlike you, SOME People have Subjected themselves TO the TRUTH, who IS Jesus Christ the Lord, and TRUST, a Conversion Accompolished BY HIM, IS Accomplished, according to HIS WORD.

Accept it! You make your choices, as does everyone else. And "Scripture dictates the results" of an individuals choices, not you.

 

[aspen]

I might add, that if I am pointing out the negatives in your church, why is it assumed that the reason I am doing so is because I hate the people in that church? Would it not be for your personal well being, and that of your children and grand-children, that I point out the dangers in your midst? If I cared not for you, why would I be warning you of that which could hurt you?
It is not the presence of corrupt minds in the church that is evidence of apostasy, for all churches have weeds (tares) in them...it is the refusal to acknowledge that corruption, and the reluctantance to exercise any action to protect your own people from that corruption that is evidence of apostasy.

Brakelite - i see where you are coming from and I have some thoughts on your post:

1. There is a difference between yourself and a person like Phoneman, for example - if you think about it, many people who point out things they do not like in Catholicism are attacking the church, not looking out for the welfare of Catholic members.

2. No offense (seriously), but you would have to be complete idiot as a Catholic member to not have heard the information you seem to believe we have never heard about!. If a person has spent any amount of time on this board, they have encountered the critical information countless times.

Ironically, the most uninformed Catholics are former members who get saved in Protestant churches and become armchair critics - many examples post here on this board.

3. The feelings about indoctrination and tribalism go both ways - we think you guys are just as uninformed about the doctrines you follow as you do about us - fact.

4. For all the BOL’s out there that scream ‘indoctrination’ - there are seemingly countless Protestant who scream just as loudly, ‘i have no understanding of church history!’ ‘Didn’t Martin Luther King Jr. start preaching in the south right after Jesus was resurrected?’

5. Many Protestants communicate personal offense regarding Catholic doctrine and the people who purposely and knowingly throw it in their face - Catholics are accused of flaunting their doctrines as much as Fundamentalists accuse homosexuals of flaunting their sexuality.

6. Where Protestants see authority, Catholics see private interpretation of scripture and react by automatically questioning the Protestant.

It is for these reasons that Catholics question intentions of people who like to point out their disagreements about Catholic doctrine.

BTW, i used to believe many of the same criticisms about Catholic doctrine and used to pity Catholic members who were being lied to by their clergy (who didn’t even believe it themselves) and indoctrinated in order for the Vatican to hoard money and power.

Then, I met an educated Catholic, read as much doctrine as I could over a two year period and read a great deal of church history. I joined the church when I was thirty

 

[ScottA]

AKA Ego Warrior; Lord of the Pissing Contest; Pantser of Narcissists.

Are we called to go forworth and win at all costs? Blungeon our neighbor with our opinion about the Truth? Heal the wrong with our Right? Harrass the goats with vain reform all the way to Hell? Double down on doctrine over the welfare of neighbor?

Zealous Christians are always ego warriors - cause who’d want to be a snowflake, right?

Christians love to defend the truth; I would love to see more advocate for their neighbor made in God’s image. The Truth can take care of itself - meanwhile our neighbors are getting pummeled.....

We need more Mr. Rogers; less James White

It's a two-edged sword. What's not to like?