Calvinism is a Cult

[SovereignGrace]

Look again at what forum this thread is in. It does not say Christians Only as others do. You are wrong here. As far as following rules, here is one from the rules for this site:

Community-Wide Rules

• No Flaming, Goading or Harassment. All members should be treated with the utmost respect and courtesy at all times following the rules of civil discourse, this includes heated debate discussions or even in daily discussion in the shoutbox.
• No insults are allowed. Included in this are all forms of flaming, harassment, and trolling/goading as determined at the discretion of the Christianity Board Team. Trolling/Goading is defined as repeated attempts through the use of images, cartoons, smileys or text that is designed to be explicitly demeaning, patronizing, embarrassing, or otherwise upsetting to a member or group of members in the community.

Do you think your insults here conform to these rules like telling me to go into my hole and stay there?

So you love people based on your own standard and not gods standard. Here is what your Bible says:

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. Jn 13:34

If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 1 Jn 4:20

Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. Ro 12:10

And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them. Luke 6:31

But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Luke 6:35

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude.It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful, it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things,hopes all things, endures all things. 1 Cor 13:1-7.

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” Jn 13:34-35

From this last verse how can I conclude that you are a disciple of Christ? You show no love to other Christians and let alone non Christians. This is what your bible says love is:

Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful...

Do you think that you exhibit these attributes of love? I don't see it with what you post on these boards. Its not just you but look at the nastiness on this thread alone between the Calvinists and anti Calvinists. You are supposed to be brothers/sisters in Christ but you act like the rest of the world, like I see on Twitter etc. It would go a long way if non believers actually saw Christians disagreeing in a respectful way. Jesus had compassion on sinners but harsh words for the religious people that were not following gods commands and corrupting what god said.

You can take this and think about it to see if you agree with this assessment or you can lash back out of anger and continue to show that you are not following Jesus in this area.

Whoa, what he said was unacceptable. I am not calling you an enemy by saying this, but the Christ commands us to even love our enemies.

@Stranger

Don’t go on any mission trips, you won’t win any to the Christ with that hate in your heart.

 

[Jun2u]

[QUOTE="Ezra, post: 528596, member: 8052"]God leads through his Holy Spirit .the lead is a choice to obey. paul wrote quench not the spirit. he calls we answer yes or no..please understand i been down this road many times..[/QUOTE]

True, the call is to the world but Scripture states “few are chosen.” Furthermore, Scripture states that there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God” Further still, Scripture declares, “as in Adam all die” meaning: without exception man is spiritually dead, sold to sin and to Satan.

Indeed, @Preacher4Truth is correct to say, you have a gospel that man is the kingmaker of his life.

Perhaps you will be better served by reading Ezekiel 36:24-38 to learn who is the prime mover of salvation, and maybe you will “see” the meaning of the pronoun “I”.

To God Be The Glory


True, the call is to the world but Scripture states “few are chosen.” Furthermore, Scripture states that there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God” Further still, Scripture declares, “as in Adam all die” meaning: without exception man is spiritually dead, sold to sin and to Satan..



Indeed you do have a gospel that man is the kingmaker of his life.



Perhaps you will better be served by reading Ezekiel 36:24-38 to learn who is the prime mover of salvation, and maybe you will “see” the meaning of the pronoun “I”.



To God Be The Glory

 

[Stranger]

Look again at what forum this thread is in. It does not say Christians Only as others do. You are wrong here. As far as following rules, here is one from the rules for this site:

Community-Wide Rules

• No Flaming, Goading or Harassment. All members should be treated with the utmost respect and courtesy at all times following the rules of civil discourse, this includes heated debate discussions or even in daily discussion in the shoutbox.
• No insults are allowed. Included in this are all forms of flaming, harassment, and trolling/goading as determined at the discretion of the Christianity Board Team. Trolling/Goading is defined as repeated attempts through the use of images, cartoons, smileys or text that is designed to be explicitly demeaning, patronizing, embarrassing, or otherwise upsetting to a member or group of members in the community.

Do you think your insults here conform to these rules like telling me to go into my hole and stay there?

So you love people based on your own standard and not gods standard. Here is what your Bible says:

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. Jn 13:34

If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 1 Jn 4:20

Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. Ro 12:10

And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them. Luke 6:31




But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Luke 6:35

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude.It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful, it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things,hopes all things, endures all things. 1 Cor 13:1-7.

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” Jn 13:34-35

From this last verse how can I conclude that you are a disciple of Christ? You show no love to other Christians and let alone non Christians. This is what your bible says love is:

Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful...

Do you think that you exhibit these attributes of love? I don't see it with what you post on these boards. Its not just you but look at the nastiness on this thread alone between the Calvinists and anti Calvinists. You are supposed to be brothers/sisters in Christ but you act like the rest of the world, like I see on Twitter etc. It would go a long way if non believers actually saw Christians disagreeing in a respectful way. Jesus had compassion on sinners but harsh words for the religious people that were not following gods commands and corrupting what god said.

You can take this and think about it to see if you agree with this assessment or you can lash back out of anger and continue to show that you are not following Jesus in this area.

I know what forum it is in. "Christian Formation and Apologetics" And you're not Christian. Below this forum is the "Non-Christian Forums". That's you. You need to go back where you belong.

What insults. Are you insulted for being called an atheist? Are you insulted for posting where you shouldn't and being told to leave? Are you insulted because I am not moved by your "oh please you don't love me" whining?

Oh, I see there is more of that coming. But, your not 'one another'. Your not my brother. I don't hate my brother, but you are another story. I am doing unto others as I would have you do to me if I were doing what you're doing. So, you admit you are an enemy of mine. You are not just my enemy, you are an enemy of God. I say what I say in love...just not a love toward you.

No, it wouldn't go a long way. Your purpose here is not to seek Jesus Christ. It is to find fault and create doubt. You would love everyone just to accept you and love you as you tear down Christianity and Jesus Christ. You would love an open door with no resistance. Sorry pal. Ain't gong to happen. You're an enemy of God and Christ.

I don't have to think about it. Your assessment is empty.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Whoa, what he said was unacceptable. I am not calling you an enemy by saying this, but the Christ commands us to even love our enemies.

@Stranger

Don’t go on any mission trips, you won’t win any to the Christ with that hate in your heart.

I am not required to win any to Christ. I am required only to witness. Whether one comes to Christ is up to the Holy Spirit. Not me.

Stranger

 

[CoreIssue]

79 Bible verses about Seeking God[/URL]

We do not seek God on our own. God guides us to him if we will listen.

Many do sell themselves to Satan and sin. But not all.

Calvinism has God doing the selling.

God says for us to seek him and we shall find him. It does not say God put us on a leash and pull him to him.

Again, Romans 8 says he foreknew who would love him and predestined them all the way to glorification. It does not say he predestined some to love him.

 

[Vince]

I know what forum it is in. "Christian Formation and Apologetics" And you're not Christian. Below this forum is the "Non-Christian Forums". That's you. You need to go back where you belong.

What insults. Are you insulted for being called an atheist? Are you insulted for posting where you shouldn't and being told to leave? Are you insulted because I am not moved by your "oh please you don't love me" whining?

You are wrong look at the screen shot. This thread is in the "Christian Formation and Apologetics" forum that does not say "For Christians Only" like the other ones do. You are simply wrong here. I cannot post in those other forums anyway, I don't have that privilege. I have obeyed the rules here, you have not as I pointed out in my post.

Oh, I see there is more of that coming. But, your not 'one another'. Your not my brother. I don't hate my brother, but you are another story. I am doing unto others as I would have you do to me if I were doing what you're doing. So, you admit you are an enemy of mine. You are not just my enemy, you are an enemy of God. I say what I say in love...just not a love toward you.

Keep going this is great material to recruit atheists.

No, it wouldn't go a long way. Your purpose here is not to seek Jesus Christ. It is to find fault and create doubt. You would love everyone just to accept you and love you as you tear down Christianity and Jesus Christ. You would love an open door with no resistance. Sorry pal. Ain't gong to happen. You're an enemy of God and Christ.

Ok, I don't consider you my enemy, I don't consider you a Christian either, I think that is plain to see by all if they know what the bible says and can see your behavior. My 8 year old has better morals than you do, that is not an insult but the facts.

 

[Stranger]

You are wrong look at the screen shot. This thread is in the "Christian Formation and Apologetics" forum that does not say "For Christians Only" like the other ones do. You are simply wrong here. I cannot post in those other forums anyway, I don't have that privilege. I have obeyed the rules here, you have not as I pointed out in my post.

Keep going this is great material to recruit atheists.

Ok, I don't consider you my enemy, I don't consider you a Christian either, I think that is plain to see by all if they know what the bible says and can see your behavior. My 8 year old has better morals than you do, that is not an insult but the facts.

"Christian Formation and Christian Apologetics"

You can use it to recruit all the atheists you can. Doesn't bother me. So keep up with your whining and I will continue to point it out.

Too bad, you're an enemy of God. I am no friends with an enemy of God. Your consideration of who is Christian weighs about as much as a snowflake.

Stranger

 

[CoreIssue]

Look again at what forum this thread is in. It does not say Christians Only as others do. You are wrong here. As far as following rules, here is one from the rules for this site:

The problem With what you say is that it is a Christian apologetics forum. Not an atheist apologetics.

You're not here to defend Christianity, you're here to attack it.

Trolling – (verb), as it relates to internet, is the deliberate act, (by a Troll – noun or adjective), of making random unsolicited and/or controversial comments on various internet forums with the intent to provoke an emotional knee jerk reaction from unsuspecting readers to engage in a fight or argument

With that comment I have to leave it to the admin.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

"Christian Formation and Christian Apologetics"

You can use it to recruit all the atheists you can. Doesn't bother me. So keep up with your whining and I will continue to point it out.

Too bad, you're an enemy of God. I am no friends with an enemy of God. Your consideration of who is Christian weighs about as much as a snowflake.

Stranger

I think that one of "Vince's" problems is that he doesn't understand the maxim, "Orthodoxy (right belief) produces orthopraxy (right behavior)". As a Biblical counselor, I have come across so many who don't understand who the God of the Bible is, and have created a god which they prefer. Vince has created a god out of "good" behavior--which puts the cart before the horse. I have explained that "good-deed-doing" outside of faith is worthless (phaulon in the Greek). He insists that his good deeds should win him a spot in heaven, even though he does not believe. Maybe you will have more success with him using your "tough love" approach. Blessings.

 

[Stranger]

I think that one of "Vince's" problems is that he doesn't understand the maxim, "Orthodoxy (right belief) produces orthopraxy (right behavior)". As a Biblical counselor, I have come across so many who don't understand who the God of the Bible is, and have created a god which they prefer. Vince has created a god out of "good" behavior--which puts the cart before the horse. I have explained that "good-deed-doing" outside of faith is worthless (phaulon in the Greek). He insists that his good deeds should win him a spot in heaven, even though he does not believe. Maybe you will have more success with him using your "tough love" approach. Blessings.

Your testimony and witness is good and acceptable to God. (2 Cor. 2:14-16) "Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things."

We witness life to some, but death to others. God is pleased.

Stranger

 

[CoreIssue]

This is an interesting issue.

Working in intelligence, as a councilman, Mayor and state arbitrator I constantly ran into people saying they didn't care what the laws, rules, etc. are they were going to do the right thing.

But it was always the right thing by their thinking. They had no regard for why the laws, rules, etc. were put in place.

Atheists often argue that if there is indeed a God why would he put anyone in hell? Even if it required multiple places give everybody a good place in eternity.

My answer was those people going to hell would still be those same people no matter where they are under what conditions. The greedy would always try to have more than others, the power mad always try to rule others and the perverts use others. Just think how bad it would get in eternity.

 

[Ezra]

maybe you will “see

perhaps one day you will see i do not nor will not agree with Calvinism. if you want to be a Calvinist so be it. it is by far my cup of tea. i can come close to agreeing with the Pentecost than Calvinism. i have friend on facebook who lives n Scotland .she is not rude or dogmatic . see i have even done a email correspondence with a man. he tried his best to convert me over..he soon gave up

 

[OzSpen]

No man is saved via decision or their will; 1 Peter 1:3; James 1:18; John 1:13 &c.

P4T,

What happened with Paul, Silas and the Philippian jailer?

25 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the other prisoners were listening to them. 26 Suddenly there was such a violent earthquake that the foundations of the prison were shaken. At once all the prison doors flew open, and everyone’s chains came loose. 27 The jailer woke up, and when he saw the prison doors open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself because he thought the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul shouted, ‘Don’t harm yourself! We are all here!’

29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’

31 They replied, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved – you and your household.’ 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptised (Acts 16:25-33 NIV).
​

The jailer's question, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved'?

Paul and Silas's response was a command to him (the imperative mood in Greek): '[You] believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved'.

Paul and Silas did not say,'Do nothing. If you are predestined/elected to be saved, there is zero you need to do as God has done it all for you'.

There was no unconditional election here. The Philippian jailer and his household had to believe.

This is parallel with what happened in Joshua 24 (NIV):

14 ‘Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshipped beyond the River Euphrates and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.’​

They had to believe in Acts 16 and they (the Israelites) and to choose to reject idolatry and serve the Lord.

That's Bible.

Oz

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

This is an interesting issue.

Working in intelligence, as a councilman, Mayor and state arbitrator I constantly ran into people saying they didn't care what the laws, rules, etc. are they were going to do the right thing.

But it was always the right thing by their thinking. They had no regard for why the laws, rules, etc. were put in place.

Atheists often argue that if there is indeed a God why would he put anyone in hell? Even if it required multiple places give everybody a good place in eternity.

My answer was those people going to hell would still be those same people no matter where they are under what conditions. The greedy would always try to have more than others, the power mad always try to rule others and the perverts use others. Just think how bad it would get in eternity.

Yes. God has already declared who will not be admitted into His Kingdom. Unless they repent, leave their wicked ways, humble themselves, pray and seek His face, their fate is to go to the Lake of Fire--where their bodies and souls will be destroyed. God will not have anyone in heaven who is not clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

When I was in grad school, I once went to a lecture given by a corrections officer at a regional maximum-security institution. I was struck by a statement which he made. He said that he had never met a prisoner who believed he should be in jail, no matter how serious the crime he committed! They always had excuses, their parents were bad people, they grew up in poverty, were discriminated against, etc. Adam's sin was compounded by his insistence, "It was that woman you gave me!" not so subtly blaming God for causing Adam to sin. Blame-shifting is part of the "sin complex" that the sinner projects onto others. "Vince" probably thinks that the world would be a much better place without those "mean old, judgmental Christians". Apparently, the enemy of his soul has convinced him of that. Little does he know that once the Church is removed, this planet will become a literal "hell on earth."

 

[CoreIssue]

Yes. God has already declared who will not be admitted into His Kingdom. Unless they repent, leave their wicked ways, humble themselves, pray and seek His face, their fate is to go to the Lake of Fire--where their bodies and souls will be destroyed. God will not have anyone in heaven who is not clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

When I was in grad school, I once went to a lecture given by a corrections officer at a regional maximum-security institution. I was struck by a statement which he made. He said that he had never met a prisoner who believed he should be in jail, no matter how serious the crime he committed! They always had excuses, their parents were bad people, they grew up in poverty, were discriminated against, etc. Adam's sin was compounded by his insistence, "It was that woman you gave me!" not so subtly blaming God for causing Adam to sin. Blame-shifting is part of the "sin complex" that the sinner projects onto others. "Vince" probably thinks that the world would be a much better place without those "mean old, judgmental Christians". Apparently, the enemy of his soul has convinced him of that. Little does he know that once the Church is removed, this planet will become a literal "hell on earth."

The occult actually teaches Christians will be removed from the earth by ascended Masters to enable humans to evolve to godhood.

In different terms atheists believe the same thing.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

P4T,

What happened with Paul, Silas and the Philippian jailer?

Concerning each of their salvation experiences? I'll take it on that note. I'll actually address your response, knowing you've failed to address the passages I've given.

They believed, but that isn't the work of man, it is the work of God; Note John 6:29; Ephesians 1:19. You need to not even move on any further, until you know this, and accept this rudimentary truth. Otherwise, all you are doing is denying these truths and fighting for what you did, giving you the glory. If you still want to claim it's the work of man, against Biblical evidences, then you will remain ignorant of other truths.

Examine the texts, they clearly show faith as God's gift, and even as far to show that it is the same power that raised Christ; Ephesians 1:19. It is not granted to all; 2 Thessalonians 3:2. It comes from Christ through his word, it is not innate; Romans 10:17.

Read commentary on them. Study them. No need to kneejerk react back to Finney and Sandeman doctrine. Actually spend a few days and study it out.

OK, now this:

This happened: "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth." 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

and this: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1 Peter 1:3.

through this: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. - Ephesians 1:3-6

BECAUSE we would never choose him, being unable: No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44.

And because choosing and determining and willing does not save (as I gave you other texts, which absolutely did not address) John 1:13. John 6:63 as well.

And this, finally, 2 Timothy 2:8-10. Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

That's Bible.

Oz

Nope, that's truncated Bible and thus a false message.

(Nothing against you, just sticking to the truth, and the fact you avoid addressing any Scripture that give God all the due glory.) I wouldn't deal with them either, if I were you, then you'd have to admit your error. It's humbling, believe me.

It amazes me that you and others of your ilk have a deep aversion to granting to God all the glory due to his name, and focus on you.

So, the apparent thing is you give glory to man for choosing, which didn't save, and glory to man for doing, which didn't save. They are all evidence of conversion, not the cause. GOD is the cause; 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. Nowhere in the jailer's story did they say if you do this, that will save you. You need to think a lot deeper, and honestly you need more Bible.

 

[CoreIssue]

P4T,

What happened with Paul, Silas and the Philippian jailer?

25 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the other prisoners were listening to them. 26 Suddenly there was such a violent earthquake that the foundations of the prison were shaken. At once all the prison doors flew open, and everyone’s chains came loose. 27 The jailer woke up, and when he saw the prison doors open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself because he thought the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul shouted, ‘Don’t harm yourself! We are all here!’

29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’

31 They replied, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved – you and your household.’ 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptised (Acts 16:25-33 NIV).
​

The jailer's question, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved'?

Paul and Silas's response was a command to him (the imperative mood in Greek): '[You] believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved'.

Paul and Silas did not say,'Do nothing. If you are predestined/elected to be saved, there is zero you need to do as God has done it all for you'.

There was no unconditional election here. The Philippian jailer and his household had to believe.

This is parallel with what happened in Joshua 24 (NIV):

14 ‘Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshipped beyond the River Euphrates and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.’​

They had to believe in Acts 16 and they (the Israelites) and to choose to reject idolatry and serve the Lord.

That's Bible.

Oz

Calvinist rewrite their messages according to circumstances.

You were just told they had not been saved yet but Calvinism believes they were saved before the world was created. In fact, not foreknowledge.

They deny free will but you were just told they made a freewill choice.

 

[OzSpen]

Concerning each of their salvation experiences? I'll take it on that note. I'll actually address your response, knowing you've failed to address the passages I've given.

They believed, but that isn't the work of man, it is the work of God; Note John 6:29; Ephesians 1:19. You need to not even move on any further, until you know this, and accept this rudimentary truth. Otherwise, all you are doing is denying these truths and fighting for what you did, giving you the glory. If you still want to claim it's the work of man, against Biblical evidences, then you will remain ignorant of other truths.

Examine the texts, they clearly show faith as God's gift, and even as far to show that it is the same power that raised Christ; Ephesians 1:19. It is not granted to all; 2 Thessalonians 3:2. It comes from Christ through his word, it is not innate; Romans 10:17.

Read commentary on them. Study them. No need to kneejerk react back to Finney and Sandeman doctrine. Actually spend a few days and study it out.

OK, now this:

This happened: "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth." 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

and this: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1 Peter 1:3.

through this: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. - Ephesians 1:3-6

BECAUSE we would never choose him, being unable: No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44.

And because choosing and determining and willing does not save (as I gave you other texts, which absolutely did not address) John 1:13. John 6:63 as well.

And this, finally, 2 Timothy 2:8-10. Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.





Nope, that's truncated Bible and thus a false message.

(Nothing against you, just sticking to the truth, and the fact you avoid addressing any Scripture that give God all the due glory.) I wouldn't deal with them either, if I were you, then you'd have to admit your error. It's humbling, believe me.

It amazes me that you and others of your ilk have a deep aversion to granting to God all the glory due to his name, and focus on you.

So, the apparent thing is you give glory to man for choosing, which didn't save, and glory to man for doing, which didn't save. They are all evidence of conversion, not the cause. GOD is the cause; 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. Nowhere in the jailer's story did they say if you do this, that will save you. You need to think a lot deeper, and honestly you need more Bible.

P4T,

You don't deal with what I write and the content of it, but spin off into your promotion of Calvinism.

It's called a red herring fallacy.

If you do this again, I won't respond as we can't have a rational conversation when you use fallacious reasoning.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Calvinist rewrite their messages according to circumstances.

You were just told they had not been saved yet but Calvinism believes they were saved before the world was created. In fact, not foreknowledge.

They deny free will but you were just told they made a freewill choice.

I agree. I've studied Calvinism for decades - yes decades - and that is why I'm not a Calvinist.

I would not designate Calvinism as a cult but a Christian group that promotes false teaching in its doctrine of salvation.

There are many Calvinistic teachings with which I agree. For example, I'm convinced the T and P of TULIP are biblical, but not ULI.

There are many outstanding expositions of the doctrine of God in their writings, e.g. Wayne Grudem's, Systematic Theology. However, I find Norman Geisler's 4 vols on Systematic Theology to be more balanced biblically.

Many of them are amillennial in their eschatology. I'm not convinced.

Oz

 

[Preacher4Truth]

P4T,

You don't deal with what I write and the content of it, but spin off into your promotion of Calvinism.

It's called a red herring fallacy.

If you do this again, I won't respond as we can't have a rational conversation when you use fallacious reasoning.

Oz

That's untrue. I addressed your question and gave Scriptural rebuttal and further understanding. But you dismiss Scriptural responses as "Calvinism" so you can have a cop out.

Everyone can see that.

Bottom line is now you're bearing false witness. That's shameful, but hey, that's you.

You've not dealt with any text given you and you know it.

But carry on, all can see the truth of the matter here.