Calvinism is a Cult

[SovereignGrace]

No--you have turned what I said into something that I HAVE NOT SAID. You are the one who have turned the message into one of doom and gloom. Revelation 20:12 "And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books." What of babies and small children? Are they not to be granted clemency even though they have not sinned? (see Romans 9:11) I know that Augustine (where Calvin got the bulk of his theology--to the point that it was called "Calvinistic Augustinianism") felt that babies and small children went to eternal punishment. They invented infant baptism as a sop to parents who lost their babies and small children. There is nothing in the New Testament to support anything other than believer's baptism. The eastern churches never adopted the doctrine of Original Sin which Augustine envisioned--and do not believe that the souls of dead infants are bound for punishment. In that instance, they were much wiser than Augustine, whose theology suffered from the fact that he did not read Greek and used an inferior Latin version of the Bible.

Are there literal babies in heaven?

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Babies are born dead in sin my Sister. David stated it in Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. David knew he was born dead in sins. Then he also wrote The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth. 4 They have venom like the venom of a serpent; Like a deaf cobra that stops up its ear, 5 so that it does not hear the voice of charmers, Or a skillful caster of spells.[Psalms 58]

If babies are born innocent, then raising them up only to die lost is the cruelest thing a parent could do.

Parent asks kid:

"What do you want to be, a doctor or lawyer?" Kid answers "Lawyer."

"OK, now, do you want to go to heaven when you die? Yes, or no?" Kid answers "Yes."

There. Time and eternity settled in mere seconds.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Babies are born dead in sin my Sister. David stated it in Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. David knew he was born dead in sins. Then he also wrote The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth. 4 They have venom like the venom of a serpent; Like a deaf cobra that stops up its ear, 5 so that it does not hear the voice of charmers, Or a skillful caster of spells.[Psalms 58]

If babies are born innocent, then raising them up only to die lost is the cruelest thing a parent could do.

The fact that we are all, since the Fall of our primordial ancestors, born into a contagiously sinful world, assures that we will eventually sin, becoming sinners. Jesus apparently did not feel the need to castigate babies and children--we have no record of that. What we do have is a record of Him loving them and blessing them. He greatly respected their innocence. Jesus, because He had the Holy Spirit "without measure" was able to maintain His innocence until death. How is it that He was not born dead in sin? Was He not human? Granted, He was fully God, but He was also fully man, according the the ancient doctrine of the Church.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Adam acted as our representative. The fathers in Ezekiel didn’t. You can’t conflate Ezekiel with the fall in the Garden.

Was not the Holy Spirit who inspired the Book of Ezekiel aware that "Adam acted as our representative"? We must tell Him. But first, I guess we must interpret what that means for Him.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The fact that we are all, since the Fall of our primordial ancestors, born into a contagiously sinful world, assures that we will eventually sin, becoming sinners. Jesus apparently did not feel the need to castigate babies and children--we have no record of that. What we do have is a record of Him loving them and blessing them. He greatly respected their innocence. Jesus, because He had the Holy Spirit "without measure" was able to maintain His innocence until death. How is it that He was not born dead in sin? Was He not human? Granted, He was fully God, but He was also fully man, according the the ancient doctrine of the Church.

Again, if babies are born innocent, a heresy deemed heresy at the Council of Carthage in 418 AD, then they can not die, seeing the wages of sin is death. You’re promoting Pelagianism my Sister.

 

[friend of]

You guys realize that basically the entire OT disproves Irresistible Grace, don't you?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Was not the Holy Spirit who inspired the Book of Ezekiel aware that "Adam acted as our representative"? We must tell Him. But first, I guess we must interpret what that means for Him.

The reason why sons were not accountable for their father’s sins was because the fathers never stood in their place. Adam stood in our place as our representative my Sister.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Notice a post giving God all the glory gets like no responses or likes? THAT is the problem in a nut shell.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The fact that we are all, since the Fall of our primordial ancestors, born into a contagiously sinful world, assures that we will eventually sin, becoming sinners. Jesus apparently did not feel the need to castigate babies and children--we have no record of that. What we do have is a record of Him loving them and blessing them. He greatly respected their innocence. Jesus, because He had the Holy Spirit "without measure" was able to maintain His innocence until death. How is it that He was not born dead in sin? Was He not human? Granted, He was fully God, but He was also fully man, according the the ancient doctrine of the Church.

My Sister, babies aren’t born innocent.

 

[friend of]

My Sister, babies aren’t born innocent

So according to you, they all go to hell? Wow

 

[Dave L]

You guys realize that basically the entire OT disproves Irresistible Grace, don't you?

Law cannot save and obedience only meant temporal rewards or loss for disobedience. It was about national survival not salvation.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Read the Romans 9:11 passage I cited. Babies DO NOT SIN. Beside that, the Book of Ezekiel (among other passages) tells us that the children of the guilty are only responsible for their own sins. Those innocent of sin (small children and infants) among Amalek went to Paradise--which was undoubtedly a great deal better than being raised by Amalekites. Quoting "the wages of sin is death" is not an argument for eternal punishment for dead infants.

Romans 9:11 shows God’s sovereign election of sinners. Before any did good, bad or indifferent, He loved Jacob and hated Esau.

 

[friend of]

Law cannot save and obedience only meant temporal rewards or loss for disobedience. It was about national survival not salvation.

What happened to the souls of God's people before Christ came then?

 

[SovereignGrace]

So according to you, they all go to hell? Wow

Never said that. But the Bible doesn’t explicitly state one way or the other.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Again, if babies are born innocent, a heresy deemed heresy at the Council of Carthage in 418 AD, then they can not die, seeing the wages of sin is death. You’re promoting Pelagianism my Sister.

There is the death of a mortal body and there is the death of the soul and spirit. You shouldn't confuse the two--Jesus certainly didn't. "Do not fear those who kill the body. Fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna." What is so sacrosanct about the Council of Carthage (especially for Protestant Calvinists)? Catholics (which Augustine was and Calvin borrowed most of Augustine's theology wholesale) were always branding one or another with the heresy title. I am a Biblicist. I do not follow men.

 

[Dave L]

What happened to the souls of God's people before Christ came then?

Hebrews 11 lists many faithful who were born again. They did not need to be told not to murder or steal. They didn't want to. The law was for the wicked unbelievers but the believers naturally fulfilled it in love.

 

[friend of]

Law cannot save and obedience only meant temporal rewards or loss for disobedience. It was about national survival not salvation.

We know that many from OT times will be in heaven though.

Matthew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Thing is the anti-Calvinists believe God unjust (unfair is same meaning) if all are not given a chance to vote. Yes, they see this as injustice, that if this is true God is an unjust God. So they reject this truth and spend time trying to get God off the hook, and by painting a picture of Him contrary to Him and His Gospel.

 

[Dave L]

We know that many from OT times will be in heaven though.

Matthew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Yes, Abel was born again, so was Job and his friends. David, the prophets....

 

[SovereignGrace]

There is the death of a mortal body and there is the death of the soul and spirit. You shouldn't confuse the two--Jesus certainly didn't. "Do not fear those who kill the body. Fear the One who can destroy body and soul in Gehenna." What is so sacrosanct about the Council of Carthage (especially for Protestant Calvinists?) Catholics (which Augustine was and Calvin borrowed most of Augustine's theology wholesale) were always branding one or another with the heresy title. I am a Biblicist. I do not follow men.

Yet it was by Adam’s sin we were born with the penalty of sin and death due to the consequences of sin. We did nothing but still got the ramifications of Adam’s sin.