Calvinism is a Cult

[Preacher4Truth]

Why dont you just tell me how you think Romans 5 supports the idea that God didn't give us free will. I'll be waiting.

You can't even follow along in a simple context of our discussion. I never said it had a thing to do with denying free will, but as to where we are. Try to pay better attention.

Last attempt to get you to deal with the Scripture given you. Now go do it and stop being deceitful and evasive. Who knows, maybe you'll be granted the knowledge of the truth instead of fighting for yourself and your glory.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Why dont you just tell me how you think Romans 5 supports the idea that God didn't give us free will. I'll be waiting.

Adam in the Garden represented all of mankind, as that was his posterity. The Christ, the last Adam, represents all of His ppl, the elect of God. When Adam(and also Eve) fell in the Garden, we also fell, being in Adam. We lost all that Adam lost when he fell. We fell into sin and slavery, as you can see the last thing Adam wanted to do was converse with God after their eyes were opened to their nakedness.

The last Adam, the Christ, undid that for His ppl, those the Father chose from before creation(Ephesians 1:4), and He died for them.[John 10:11 and John 10:15]

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Adam in the Garden represented all of mankind, as that was his posterity. The Christ, the last Adam, represents all of His ppl, the elect of God. When Adam(and also Eve) fell in the Garden, we also fell, being in Adam. The last Adam, the Christ, undid that for His ppl, those the Father chose from before creation(Ephesians 1:4), and He died for them.[John 10:11 and John 10:15]

He's still fighting for man and the power of man, and choosing, and that they saved themselves for choosing. He can't get past himself to the truth of the Gospel.

He is arguing we still have free will, and to get to the point and bottom line: He's preaching that we choose ourselves into heaven even when dead in sin and hostile toward God. Same lie in the garden being preached and fast forwarded to today.

 

[friend of]

We show how salvation is all of God, all of grace, and they talk about how they chose themselves in, that they were elected because they did something

We do do something. We respond to the drawing. That is a fact most Calvinists will admit is compatible with Calvinism.

Then Apostle Paul wrote 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.[Romans 6] Again, those who are saved are no longer slaves to sin. We have been set free from the bondage(enslavement) of sin by the Christ. He also wrote this in the same chapter 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.[Romans 6] Again, the saved have been set free from the enslavement of sin and Satan by the Christ. Our wills were not free while we were enslaved to Satan. As the Christ so poignantly stated it " and the truth will make you free.”[John 8:32b]

Mind telling me why some Calvinists have problems with backsliding then?

 

[Mjh29]

We do do something. We respond to the drawing. That is a fact most Calvinists will admit is compatible with Calvinism.




Mind telling me why some Calvinists have problems with backsliding then?

1.) We only respond after our hearts are changed. If we are talking after our wills and hearts are changed, then yes we do do something. But until we are changed from the inside, we cannot and indeed will not do anything, no.
2.) Because they are still sinners. They are not in any means made perfect. You make it out that backsliding is a purely Calvinistic problem. Yes, we sin; we backslide, become more enticed by the flesh at times, but if the Spirit is truly living in us, then He will never cease to draw us back, as He did not cease to draw us forwards in the beginning. Now, if you are asking why some Calvinists fall away, Calvinists don't fall away. Posers fall away, and fakes fall away, but those truly effected by the Spirit do not fall away. Wolves in sheep's clothing, the Scriptures call them; those who fancy themselves to be intelligent because the think they are able to fool the masses. Eventually, however, the people of God will find them out; you cannot hide among the brethren forever without showing any of the fruits of the Spirit.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

And those who refuse to believe are condemned already. John 3:18 could not be any clearer in this matter. Those who died in their sins, having never read a bible, never had a missionary witness unto them, are condemned already. Ppl go to hell because they died in their sins.

While I would agree that punishment is meted out for unrepented sin committed while in the body, I also believe that clemency will be granted to some who have no knowledge of Christ. Otherwise, the GWTJ will have aspects of a "kangaroo court" (all who appear there will be judged and sent to eternal punishment--isn't that what Calvinists believe?).

On another subject--"irresistible grace" seems to be negated by Hosea 7 (as just one of many examples). Lest I be accused of "taking verses out of context"--a favorite dodge of Calvinists--I will include the entire 7th chapter. Emphasis mine, of course.


1When I would heal Israel,

the iniquity of Ephraim is exposed,

with the crimes of Samaria.

For they practice deceit and thieves break in;

bandits rob in the streets.

2But they fail to consider in their hearts

that I remember all their evil.

Now their deeds are all around them;

they are before My face.

3They delight the king with their evil,

the princes with their lies.

4They are all adulterers,

like an oven heated by a baker

who needs not stoke the fire

from the kneading to the rising of the dough.

5The princes are inflamed with wine

on the day of our king;

so he joins hands

with those who mock him.

6For they prepare their heart like an oven,

while they lie in wait;

all night their anger smolders;

in the morning it blazes like a flaming fire.

7All of them are hot as an oven,

and they devour their rulers.

All their kings fall;

not one of them calls upon Me.

8Ephraim mixes with the nations;

Ephraim is an unturned cake.

9Foreigners consume his strength,

but he does not notice.

Even his hair is streaked with gray,

but he does not know.

10Israel’s arrogance testifies against them,

yet they do not return to the LORD their God;

despite all this,

they do not seek Him.

11So Ephraim has become like a silly, senseless dove—

calling out to Egypt, then turning to Assyria.

12As they go, I will spread My net over them;

I will bring them down like birds of the air.

I will chastise them

when I hear them flocking together.

13Woe to them, for they have strayed from Me!

Destruction to them, for they have rebelled against Me!

Though I would redeem them,

they speak lies against Me.

14They do not cry out to Me from their hearts

when they wail upon their beds.

They slash themselves for grain and new wine,

but turn away from Me.

15Although I trained and strengthened their arms,

they plot evil against Me.

16They turn, but not to the Most High;

they are like a faulty bow.

Their leaders will fall by the sword

for the cursing of their tongue;

for this they will be ridiculed

in the land of Egypt.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

We do do something. We respond to the drawing. That is a fact most Calvinists will admit is compatible with Calvinism

Our response didn't clinch conversion, it evidenced conversion.

If you think your doing something saved you then you still have much to learn to get to Soli Deo Gloria.

That we come and respond is not to our boasting, and is his doing, not ours. Please note 1 Corinthians 1:26-31; John 6:63; John 6:29. Thus, you did nothing, even believing is due to His work, not yours, though you keep on trying to make it something you did. Why? Read the texts, they deny your teachings here.

Why is it you (and others) are perpetually pointing to what you do, what man did, and we are perpetually pointing out it is all God and with Scriptural proofs? Then we we're attacked and insulted for directing all the glory to God. Ever ask why, or find that troubling? And then you still avoid dealing with the texts.

You really need to see these things and ask why there is a severe lacking and apprehension for you to wholly glorify God. Rarely does this happen, nearly all of your argumentation is pointing to man, you, what you did. Everything us you pointing to man. Accept this fact and ask why your gospel is so man glorifying and lacking in giving Him all the glory.

Answer the Scriptures given you. All you are doing is arguing your own logic instead of developing it off of sound doctrine. You just won't go there.

 

[SovereignGrace]

While I would agree that punishment is meted out for unrepentant sin committed while in the body, I also believe that clemency will be granted to some who have no knowledge of Christ. Otherwise, the GWTJ will have aspects of a "kangaroo court" (all who appear there will be judged and sent to eternal punishment--isn't that what Calvinists believe?).

Where can you show those who never knew the Christ at all will have clemency? This is as anti-missionary as they come. All we need to do is leave them with zero knowledge of the Christ and that gains them eternal bliss with God. You have turned the gospel into a message of doom and gloom my friend. They were going to be with God until some missionary had the gall to tell them about the Christ.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Where can you show those who never knew the Christ at all will have clemency? This is as anti-missionary as they come. All we need to do is leave them with zero knowledge of the Christ and that gains them eternal bliss with God. You have turned the gospel into a message of doom and gloom my friend. They were going to be with God until some missionary had the gall to tell them about the Christ.

They can only see man going to hell FOR rejecting Christ, but not prior to this. THAT is a false gospel.

Scripture on the other hand shows man is lost and on their way to hell prior to hearing or rejecting; Ephesians 2:3; John 3:18.

They will not see and/or admit their error here, yet they send out missionaries. Why bother? They're going to go to heaven if they don't "reject." Isn't that wonderful?

Now they'll say we're twisting things. Nope. We've exposed a serious flaw.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Mind telling me why some Calvinists have problems with backsliding then?

Mind telling me why Abram had Sarai lie to pharaoh because he was afraid he’d get killed?
Mind telling my why David slept with Bathsheba, then got Uriah drunk, and then had him murdered?
Mind telling me why Paul struggled with sin, per Romans 7:14-25?
Mind telling me why Solomon paid for pagan temples for his wives and even went and worshiped with them?


I asked these because it’s a sin problem why believers sin. It’s not a Calvinist problem, nor is it an Arminian problem. It’s a problem all believers have...sin. Some commit more egregious sins than others, but does not mean they’re not saved.

4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Believers sin, they sin daily. But true believers never practice sin.

 

[SovereignGrace]

On another subject--"irresistible grace" seems to be negated by Hosea 7 (as just one of many examples). Lest I be accused of "taking verses out of context"--a favorite dodge of Calvinists--I will include the entire 7th chapter. Emphasis mine, of course.


1When I would heal Israel,

the iniquity of Ephraim is exposed,

with the crimes of Samaria.

For they practice deceit and thieves break in;

bandits rob in the streets.

2But they fail to consider in their hearts

that I remember all their evil.

Now their deeds are all around them;

they are before My face.

3They delight the king with their evil,

the princes with their lies.

4They are all adulterers,

like an oven heated by a baker

who needs not stoke the fire

from the kneading to the rising of the dough.

5The princes are inflamed with wine

on the day of our king;

so he joins hands

with those who mock him.

6For they prepare their heart like an oven,

while they lie in wait;

all night their anger smolders;

in the morning it blazes like a flaming fire.

7All of them are hot as an oven,

and they devour their rulers.

All their kings fall;

not one of them calls upon Me.

8Ephraim mixes with the nations;

Ephraim is an unturned cake.

9Foreigners consume his strength,

but he does not notice.

Even his hair is streaked with gray,

but he does not know.

10Israel’s arrogance testifies against them,

yet they do not return to the LORD their God;

despite all this,

they do not seek Him.

11So Ephraim has become like a silly, senseless dove—

calling out to Egypt, then turning to Assyria.

12As they go, I will spread My net over them;

I will bring them down like birds of the air.

I will chastise them

when I hear them flocking together.

13Woe to them, for they have strayed from Me!

Destruction to them, for they have rebelled against Me!

Though I would redeem them,

they speak lies against Me.

14They do not cry out to Me from their hearts

when they wail upon their beds.

They slash themselves for grain and new wine,

but turn away from Me.

15Although I trained and strengthened their arms,

they plot evil against Me.

16They turn, but not to the Most High;

they are like a faulty bow.

Their leaders will fall by the sword

for the cursing of their tongue;

for this they will be ridiculed

in the land of Egypt.

If you read, many places the Jews cried out, God redeemed them, only for them to fall back into idolatry. There comes a time when God cuts the cord.

 

[Mjh29]

While I would agree that punishment is meted out for unrepented sin committed while in the body, I also believe that clemency will be granted to some who have no knowledge of Christ. Otherwise, the GWTJ will have aspects of a "kangaroo court" (all who appear there will be judged and sent to eternal punishment--isn't that what Calvinists believe?).

On another subject--"irresistible grace" seems to be negated by Hosea 7 (as just one of many examples). Lest I be accused of "taking verses out of context"--a favorite dodge of Calvinists--I will include the entire 7th chapter. Emphasis mine, of course.


1When I would heal Israel,

the iniquity of Ephraim is exposed,

with the crimes of Samaria.

For they practice deceit and thieves break in;

bandits rob in the streets.

2But they fail to consider in their hearts

that I remember all their evil.

Now their deeds are all around them;

they are before My face.

3They delight the king with their evil,

the princes with their lies.

4They are all adulterers,

like an oven heated by a baker

who needs not stoke the fire

from the kneading to the rising of the dough.

5The princes are inflamed with wine

on the day of our king;

so he joins hands

with those who mock him.

6For they prepare their heart like an oven,

while they lie in wait;

all night their anger smolders;

in the morning it blazes like a flaming fire.

7All of them are hot as an oven,

and they devour their rulers.

All their kings fall;

not one of them calls upon Me.

8Ephraim mixes with the nations;

Ephraim is an unturned cake.

9Foreigners consume his strength,

but he does not notice.

Even his hair is streaked with gray,

but he does not know.

10Israel’s arrogance testifies against them,

yet they do not return to the LORD their God;

despite all this,

they do not seek Him.

11So Ephraim has become like a silly, senseless dove—

calling out to Egypt, then turning to Assyria.

12As they go, I will spread My net over them;

I will bring them down like birds of the air.

I will chastise them

when I hear them flocking together.

13Woe to them, for they have strayed from Me!

Destruction to them, for they have rebelled against Me!

Though I would redeem them,

they speak lies against Me.

14They do not cry out to Me from their hearts

when they wail upon their beds.

They slash themselves for grain and new wine,

but turn away from Me.

15Although I trained and strengthened their arms,

they plot evil against Me.

16They turn, but not to the Most High;

they are like a faulty bow.

Their leaders will fall by the sword

for the cursing of their tongue;

for this they will be ridiculed

in the land of Egypt.

EXACTLY! You see, you read this and say "HA! FREE WILL!" And yet, look the the result and see that this is not the free will you promote. Look at how these people had walked with and talked with God, seen miracles we can only dream of, been protected and guided by the Father Himself.... and STILL refused to accept Him. This shows the total inability of man to accept God in and of themselves. Your version of free will says "See? We can choose Him! WE have to CHOOSE!" Really? If these people, who literally saw the power of God, and heard His voice, were still not convinced enough to choose Him, how much less can we? Did they really have the ability? I mean, you say it is up to us to choose, my question is if this is true, what more do people need to make the correct choice? How much evidence needs to be piled up in their faces until they believe? Why is it that you say people today are capable of making the same choice that these people, who literally saw God Himself, still refused to make?! Have you seen any pillars of fire lately? Have you seen rivers turned to blood, waters parted, manna fall from the sky, God's protection over insurmountable odds, the literal defeat of Giants, the toppling of a giant tower merely by shouting, continual provision, and words from the prophets themselves? They had, and they still did not choose correctly. You have seen none of these things, and yet somehow you know how to make the correct decision and they did not?

This passage does not show free will; it shows that, no matter how much God shows the people His power, they will not come to Him, because there is not force apart from Him and His changing of our hearts that will make us do any other than serve the gods of this earth.

 

[SovereignGrace]

EXACTLY! You see, you read this and say "HA! FREE WILL!" And yet, look the the result and see that this is not the free will you promote. Look at how these people had walked with and talked with God, seen miracles we can only dream of, been protected and guided by the Father Himself.... and STILL refused to accept Him. This shows the total inability of man to accept God in and of themselves. Your version of free will says "See? We can choose Him! WE have to CHOOSE!" Really? If these people, who literally saw the power of God, and heard His voice, were still not convinced enough to choose Him, how much less can we? Did they really have the ability? I mean, you say it is up to us to choose, my question is if this is true, what more do people need to make the correct choice? How much evidence needs to be piled up in their faces until they believe? Why is it that you say people today are capable of making the same choice that these people, who literally saw God Himself, still refused to make?! Have you seen any pillars of fire lately? Have you seen rivers turned to blood, waters parted, manna fall from the sky, God's protection over insurmountable odds, the literal defeat of Giants, the toppling of a giant tower merely by shouting, continual provision, and words from the prophets themselves? They had, and they still did not choose correctly. You have seen none of these things, and yet somehow you know how to make the correct decision and they did not?

This passage does not show free will; it shows that, no matter how much God shows the people His power, they will not come to Him, because there is not force apart from Him and His changing of our hearts that will make us do any other than serve the gods of this earth.

Look at the raising of Lazarus. There was no denying this miracle. They knew he was dead as a doorstop. Yet, when the Christ raised him from the dead, they ran and tattled on Him by telling the Pharisees, Saducees, chief priests, et al, what He did. Did they exercise their free will to believe? No. They strived that much more to have Him killed, and Lazarus, too, seeing he was an undeniable proof of a miracle the Christ performed.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Where can you show those who never knew the Christ at all will have clemency? This is as anti-missionary as they come. All we need to do is leave them with zero knowledge of the Christ and that gains them eternal bliss with God. You have turned the gospel into a message of doom and gloom my friend. They were going to be with God until some missionary had the gall to tell them about the Christ.

No--you have turned what I said into something that I HAVE NOT SAID. You are the one who have turned the message into one of doom and gloom. Revelation 20:12 "And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books." What of babies and small children? Are they not to be granted clemency even though they have not sinned? (see Romans 9:11) I know that Augustine (where Calvin got the bulk of his theology--to the point that it was called "Calvinistic Augustinianism") felt that babies and small children went to eternal punishment. They invented infant baptism as a sop to parents who lost their babies and small children. There is nothing in the New Testament to support anything other than believer's baptism. The eastern churches never adopted the doctrine of Original Sin which Augustine envisioned--and do not believe that the souls of dead infants are bound for punishment. In that instance, they were much wiser than Augustine, whose theology suffered from the fact that he did not read Greek and used an inferior Latin version of the Bible.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No--you have turned what I said into something that I HAVE NOT SAID. You are the one who have turned the message into one of doom and gloom. Revelation 20:12 "And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books." What of babies and small children? Are they not to be granted clemency even though they have not sinned? (see Romans 9:11) I know that Augustine (where Calvin got the bulk of his theology--to the point that it was called "Calvinistic Augustinianism") felt that babies and small children went to eternal punishment. They invented infant baptism as a sop to parents who lost their babies and small children. There is nothing in the New Testament to support anything other than believer's baptism. The eastern churches never adopted the doctrine of Original Sin which Augustine envisioned--and do not believe that the souls of dead infants are bound for punishment. In that instance, they were much wiser than Augustine, whose theology suffered from the fact that he did not read Greek and used an inferior Latin version of the Bible.

Well, show me where babies are born innocent. You are appealing to your emotions and not scripture my Sister. In 1 Samuel 15, God commanded Saul, through Samuel, “The LORD sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the LORD. 2 Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

Now, only a cruel God would command someone to kill the innocent. Remember, Romans 6:23 says “the wages of sin is death”. If babies are born innocent, then they can not die.

 

[friend of]

You really need to see these things and ask why there is a severe lacking and apprehension for you to wholly glorify God

We don't. I'm not making any argument that we can pay for our own sins or raise ourselves from the dead. Only Christ can do this. Nowhere am I, or any other Armenian, denying this reality.

Mind telling me why Abram had Sarai lie to pharaoh because he was afraid he’d get killed?
Mind telling my why David slept with Bathsheba, then got Uriah drunk, and then had him murdered?
Mind telling me why Paul struggled with sin, per Romans 7:14-25?
Mind telling me why Solomon paid for pagan temples for his wives and even went and worshiped with them?

Mind telling me why in pretty much the entire Old Testament God's relationship with Israel was constantly back-and-forth, with His chosen people constantly receding from Him to worship idols and usually only returning after judgement was meted out? Why would He subject Himself to endure such grief if Irresistible Grace were so? It makes no sense.

Free Will satisfies this question perfectly.

If you read, many places the Jews cried out, God redeemed them, only for them to fall back into idolatry. There comes a time when God cuts the cord.

Another good example of Irresistible Grace. God wanted to save them all, but, sometimes even God has to cut the cord, because while He doesn't want to suffer even the wicked to perish, sometimes He kinda just does, ya'know?

/Calvinism

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Well, show me where babies are born innocent. You are appealing to your emotions and not scripture my Sister. In 1 Samuel 15, God commanded Saul, through Samuel, “The LORD sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the LORD. 2 Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

Now, only a cruel God would command someone to kill the innocent. Remember, Romans 6:23 says “the wages of sin is death”. If babies are born innocent, then they can not die.

Read the Romans 9:11 passage I cited. Babies DO NOT SIN. Beside that, the Book of Ezekiel (among other passages) tells us that the children of the guilty are only responsible for their own sins. Those innocent of sin (small children and infants) among Amalek went to Paradise--which was undoubtedly a great deal better than being raised by Amalekites. Quoting "the wages of sin is death" is not an argument for eternal punishment for dead infants.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

EXACTLY! You see, you read this and say "HA! FREE WILL!" And yet, look the the result and see that this is not the free will you promote. Look at how these people had walked with and talked with God, seen miracles we can only dream of, been protected and guided by the Father Himself.... and STILL refused to accept Him. This shows the total inability of man to accept God in and of themselves. Your version of free will says "See? We can choose Him! WE have to CHOOSE!" Really? If these people, who literally saw the power of God, and heard His voice, were still not convinced enough to choose Him, how much less can we? Did they really have the ability? I mean, you say it is up to us to choose, my question is if this is true, what more do people need to make the correct choice? How much evidence needs to be piled up in their faces until they believe? Why is it that you say people today are capable of making the same choice that these people, who literally saw God Himself, still refused to make?! Have you seen any pillars of fire lately? Have you seen rivers turned to blood, waters parted, manna fall from the sky, God's protection over insurmountable odds, the literal defeat of Giants, the toppling of a giant tower merely by shouting, continual provision, and words from the prophets themselves? They had, and they still did not choose correctly. You have seen none of these things, and yet somehow you know how to make the correct decision and they did not?

This passage does not show free will; it shows that, no matter how much God shows the people His power, they will not come to Him, because there is not force apart from Him and His changing of our hearts that will make us do any other than serve the gods of this earth.

Amen!

Here it is:

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins In which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- Ephesians 2:1-6.

Clear, plain, simple and summed up in two simple and solemn words "But God": it is ALL Him.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Read the Romans 9:11 passage I cited. Babies DO NOT SIN. Beside that, the Book of Ezekiel (among other passages) tells us that the children of the guilty are only responsible for their own sins. Those innocent of sin (small children and infants) among Amalek went to Paradise--which was undoubtedly a great deal better than being raised by Amalekites. Quoting "the wages of sin is death" is not an argument for eternal punishment for dead infants.

Babies are born dead in sin my Sister. David stated it in Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. David knew he was born dead in sins. Then he also wrote 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth. 4 They have venom like the venom of a serpent; Like a deaf cobra that stops up its ear, 5 so that it does not hear the voice of charmers, Or a skillful caster of spells.[Psalms 58]

If babies are born innocent, then raising them up only to die lost is the cruelest thing a parent could do.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Read the Romans 9:11 passage I cited. Babies DO NOT SIN. Beside that, the Book of Ezekiel (among other passages) tells us that the children of the guilty are only responsible for their own sins. Those innocent of sin (small children and infants) among Amalek went to Paradise--which was undoubtedly a great deal better than being raised by Amalekites. Quoting "the wages of sin is death" is not an argument for eternal punishment for dead infants.

Adam acted as our representative. The fathers in Ezekiel didn’t. You can’t conflate Ezekiel with the fall in the Garden.