Calvinism vs. Arminianism

[Behold]

3. Well god created Satan perfect and adam and Eve perfect, all teh while knowing they would do evil. By allowing them to fail and sin and rebel, He did somehow have a part in evil

God has no part in "evil".
Its a foolish and unwise thing, to Call God out on a Public Forum, as causing evil, because you can't comprehend that your freewill to eat an apple or watch a movie or shoot your neighbor with a handgun..., is not God's will, but YOUR DECISION.

 

[Kermos]

You expose your thought's fatal flaw of claiming to choose King Jesus before a person is born again when you wrote (your phrase "would teach" makes it your, and other people like you, teaching):

snip...
I would teach that there is a middle ground between total depravity and being born again...being drawn by the Holy Spirit...in which a man, who is not yet regenerated or born again, is enabled to either receive or reject Christ in that window of opportunity in which the Holy Spirit is drawing him. If he then receives Christ rather than rejecting Him, he becomes born again of the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ.

Verses that substantiate this are Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 5:1-2.

...snip

Because Christ Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

Your doctrine and your faith has a person choosing the kingdom of God without being able to see/perceive the kingdom of God, so your teaching and your belief contradicts where King Jesus says a person cannot see the kingdom of God unless the person is born again.

Jesus Christ's teaching is Christian teaching. Your teaching disagrees with Jesus Christ's teaching, so your teaching is not Christian teaching.

 

[Kermos]

In your writing, you claim that Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 5:1-2 support your teaching that a person can control faith/belief to choose Jesus (your "would teach", justbyfaith, is your teaching):

snip...
I would teach that there is a middle ground between total depravity and being born again...being drawn by the Holy Spirit...in which a man, who is not yet regenerated or born again, is enabled to either receive or reject Christ in that window of opportunity in which the Holy Spirit is drawing him. If he then receives Christ rather than rejecting Him, he becomes born again of the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ.

Verses that substantiate this are Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 5:1-2.

...snip

Both Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 5:1-2 are Paul's writings.

In Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul indicates that faith/belief is the gift of God (not a work of a choice by a person).

In Ephesians 2:10, Paul even wrote "we are his workmanship" (not doing a choice by a person because faith/belief are the work of God).

This puts Paul in accord with Lord Jesus Christ Who says that believing in the Son of God whom God the Father has sent is the work of God (John 6:29); moreover, the Word of God defines the faith/belief that saves right here where He says such faith/belief is the work of God.

This means that the faith/belief mentioned in Romans 5:1-2 is because the Spirit of God is already in the person!

Hello @Nancy @Renniks @marks I see that you all posted on the first page of this thread and you show your support for the unscriptural postion of choosing God.

Self-willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) claim to choose the Majestic King Jesus which means such persons do not receive the Word of God (John 12:48) of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16); furthermore, claimed choosing of Jesus Christ by such persons is express rejection of Him Who says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

The self-willed person's heart treasure of a claimed work of control over God thus requiring God's compliance for salvation due to such person's choice toward Jesus Christ boasts in such person's work of choosing God (Ephesians 2:8-10). Such person's deny the gift of God by claiming illegitimate control of faith/belief to work a choice of Jesus Christ, and no person controls faith/belief in order to choose Jesus Christ because Lord Jesus says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him Whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

 

[Kermos]

God has no part in "evil".
Its a foolish and unwise thing, to Call God out on a Public Forum, as causing evil, because you can't comprehend that your freewill to eat an apple or watch a movie or shoot your neighbor with a handgun..., is not God's will, but YOUR DECISION.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).

This essay God had me write shows scripturally that there was no freewill imparted to Adam nor Eve in the creation account.

God alone is man's hope, but you have your hope pinned on a mere mortal man's "decision", and your hope has no ground in scripture.

Hi @Ronald Nolette, Behold's scriptureless rebuttal to you is defies the Word of God as I'm inclined to think that Behold's use of "causing" is sufficently akin to "create".

 

[Renniks]

And what are you trying to prove with this out of context Scripture from 2 Cor?

Umm...he died for all. I think all mean...um let's see, I think it means all!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Double predestination is actually biblical.

Jde 1:3, Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jde 1:4, For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

NO! God uses the unsaved just like uses the saved. These were as it says in Rpomans 9:

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God will use the lost to His purposes just as He uses the saved.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What you are teaching here is not in line with the CB's Statement of Faith
and should not be understood by other members as such....what you are teaching is unorthodox....IMHO
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Could you be specific for me? I read the SOF and CR and FR and see nothing that goes against any of it. What is it that I listed that goes against forum rules. I am asking honestly and sincerely for I do not see it. Thank you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Oh! You think that the evils of Calvinism are not known....
You think it is just my opinion?
Where do you think these come from?

View attachment 13617

Sorry you think God is a monster, for He is not. But you think you are a free agent? The Bible teaches differently:

Rom. 6 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

We are either slaves to righteousness or slaves to sin-- you pick your master!

Remember God is under no boligation to save anyone. Mankind rebels against god- not God against us.

He is god we are His creation. He gets to make the rules. and Romans 9 says it all:

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

If God appearsa monster, could it possibly be that it is your human pride that is wounded that you had no say in what and how God performs what He wishes to do?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Nonsense. It's just logic. You can't have one without the other.

Well maybe human logic but not divine logic. Every one is born condemned. God doesn't choose some to be lost - everyone is lost! He chooses to save some.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

God has no part in "evil".
Its a foolish and unwise thing, to Call God out on a Public Forum, as causing evil, because you can't comprehend that your freewill to eat an apple or watch a movie or shoot your neighbor with a handgun..., is not God's will, but YOUR DECISION.

So what you are saying is that there is a will in the universe that is more powerful than Gods! If God willed not to have evil in the universe and evil appeared, then someone has a stroinger will than god. God knew vil would arise, allowed it to serve His purpose. God could have prevented it if He chose. He chose not to and that is His business not ours! I do not accuse God of evil just showing what the bible says, God foreknew evil would happen and allowed it.

 

[Kermos]

Umm...he died for all. I think all mean...um let's see, I think it means all!

The logical extant to your belief/faith about the "all" and "no one" in 2 Corinthians 5:13-16 leads to

1. universalism, that is, salvation including all people all over the earth without exception, yet universalism contradicts apostolic teaching such as God knows how to hold self-willed persons over to destruction in the day (2 Peter 2:9-10),
2. contextual destruction, that is, you escaping the context that Paul's letter to the Corinthians is to believers (2 Corinthians 1:1), so "we" and "us" are believers in 2 Corinthians as well as the "all" indicating all the children of God whether currently believing or are yet to believe according to the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24), and the "no one" means that the Word of God will not miss any of His own (John 10:27-30),
3. denial of Christ, that is, Paul wrote "the love of Christ controls us" (2 Corinthians 5:14), in the very passage you quoted Renniks, with the statement meaning that all good works, good fruit, is a function of the Holy Spirit of God in us believers (John 15:5), yet self-willed persons claim the good work of choosing Jesus, so such persons deny the very Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all believers in all time.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What you are teaching here is not in line with the CB's Statement of Faith
and should not be understood by other members as such....what you are teaching is unorthodox....IMHO
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I read CB statement of faith twice more to make sure I did not misssomething.

Once again I ask, what specifically did I write that you believe goes against the statement of faith, which, buy the way, I fully agree and believe in 100%. I am willing to keep this open on a forum for all to see.

As I agree with everything written I would not write against anything written there, so please point out where you thinkk I went against the CB SOF.

Thanks
nolidad

 

[Ronald Nolette]

God has no part in "evil".
Its a foolish and unwise thing, to Call God out on a Public Forum, as causing evil, because you can't comprehend that your freewill to eat an apple or watch a movie or shoot your neighbor with a handgun..., is not God's will, but YOUR DECISION.

Definie what you mean by "God has no part in evil". I do not wish to misunderstand you.

 

[Grailhunter]

Sorry you think God is a monster, for He is not. But you think you are a free agent? The Bible teaches differently:

Rom. 6 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

We are either slaves to righteousness or slaves to sin-- you pick your master!

Remember God is under no boligation to save anyone. Mankind rebels against god- not God against us.

He is god we are His creation. He gets to make the rules. and Romans 9 says it all:

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

If God appearsa monster, could it possibly be that it is your human pride that is wounded that you had no say in what and how God performs what He wishes to do?

No I do not think that God is a monster, I think your theology is monstrous and blasphemous.
Abortion and predestination...What is the difference...God predestines mothers to murder their babies or God predestines babies to be damned? Since God predestined the mothers to murder their babies...are the babies damned? There is no upside except someone felling like they are favored by God over others...the elect...it is a mental quagmire that corrupts the character of people.

Don't offend one of these little ones that believe in me....if you teach this to kids you better get yourself fitted for a millstone.
God does get to make the rules...and His rule is Free will. Anything else is just a satanic play with no purpose. What good is worshipping God if He made you do it? Did He create some people to worship Him and create others to be damned...sounds more like something Satan would do. Satan likes to be worshipped and he has fun with the damned. There ya go....Calvinism the religion that serves Satan. Marching to Satan's drum...We are the elect and everyone else is damned! Whooopie!

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Job 34:4
“Let us choose for ourselves what is right;
Let us know among ourselves what is good.

Job 34:33
“Shall He recompense on your terms, because you have rejected it?
For you must choose, and not I;
Therefore declare what you know.

Psalm 25:12
Who is the man who fears the Lord?
He will instruct him in the way he should choose.

Luke 21:14
So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves;

Joel 3:14
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision!
For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

59 scriptures were someone is deciding something. In some instances, God telling them to decide or the decision is up to them.

Decide in the Bible (59 instances)

 

[Renniks]

Well maybe human logic but not divine logic. Every one is born condemned. God doesn't choose some to be lost - everyone is lost! He chooses to save some.

How do you know he chose you then? You can't know.

 

[Renniks]

God foreknew evil would happen and allowed it.

There's no allowing in Calvinism, only causation. Own it. Your theology makes God the cause of all evil.

 

[justbyfaith]

God has no part in "evil".
Its a foolish and unwise thing, to Call God out on a Public Forum, as causing evil, because you can't comprehend that your freewill to eat an apple or watch a movie or shoot your neighbor with a handgun..., is not God's will, but YOUR DECISION.

Just playing the devil's advocate here; what of the following verse?

Isa 45:7, I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

This means that the faith/belief mentioned in Romans 5:1-2 is because the Spirit of God is already in the person!

If that is the case, then Romans 5:1-2 ought to say, "we have access by grace into this faith that God has given us."

However, these things are placed in the reverse order in the passage in question.

so such persons deny the very Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all believers in all time.

U - Unconditional Election: Calvinism teaches that God arbitrarily chooses out some people for heaven and others for hell based on His choice alone.

I would teach that the Lord predestinates according to foreknowledge.

It is like the following parable.

You see a door in front of you with a sign on it that says, "Whosoever will, let him come." Upon entering, you find a table set with a nametag with your name on it at a place that was specifically set for you. You look back at the door and see a sign that says, "Predestined from before the foundations of the world."

Predestination according to foreknowledge means that the Lord knows who, when faced with the door with the sign on the outside, will choose to walk through that door; and before you walked through it He set a place for you knowing that you would be a guest at the dinner table. In this, He chose you and you did not choose Him; because eternity is a greater thing than time; and God from eternity looked down into time and saw you making the decision to receive Him; and then, by His predetermined counsel and will, chose you and did everything in his Omnipotent power to bring you into the kingdom.

But He still bases His decision on the fact that He looked down from eternity and saw that you received Him.

Verses that substantiate this are Romans 8:29-30 and 1 Peter 1:2.
.
.
.
In starting this thread, I opened up a can of worms.

 

[Renniks]

form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

This verse is about God's judgement on people for evil, not about God originally creating evil.

 

[Renniks]

The logical extant to your belief/faith about the "all" and "no one" in 2 Corinthians 5:13-16 leads to

1. universalism, that is, salvation including all people all over the earth without exception, yet universalism contradicts apostolic teaching such as God knows how to hold self-willed persons over to destruction in the day (2 Peter 2:9-10),
2. contextual destruction, that is, you escaping the context that Paul's letter to the Corinthians is to believers (2 Corinthians 1:1), so "we" and "us" are believers in 2 Corinthians as well as the "all" indicating all the children of God whether currently believing or are yet to believe according to the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24), and the "no one" means that the Word of God will not miss any of His own (John 10:27-30),
3. denial of Christ, that is, Paul wrote "the love of Christ controls us" (2 Corinthians 5:14), in the very passage you quoted Renniks, with the statement meaning that all good works, good fruit, is a function of the Holy Spirit of God in us believers (John 15:5), yet self-willed persons claim the good work of choosing Jesus, so such persons deny the very Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all believers in all time.

Nonsense. Let's look at what Arminians and the Bible actually teach:

John 3:16-17 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”

John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
God desires all persons to be saved. This is not a hypothetical desire, or a desire which is overruled by God’s other decrees as in Calvinism.

The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.

God actually wants all people (literally, everyone) to be saved. As a result of this desire of God, Jesus died for the whole world. This is commonly referred to as universal atonement.

1 John 2:2 He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.

Every Person Can Accept or Reject Jesus Christ
Another important part of Arminian theology is that it teaches that all people are able to exercise faith in Christ, or meet the conditions of salvation. In contrast to Calvinism, which teaches that only the elect can believe in Jesus, Arminianism teaches that each person has the ability to accept or reject Christ.
God has extended prevenient grace to all people which enables all people to make a choice about Jesus, whether to accept him or reject him. Every person has enough grace in their life to make a decision for or against God.

Titus 2:11 (NIV) For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

Predestination is based upon God’s foreknowledge.

Romans 8:29 For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Many Arminians teach that if a Christian renounces their belief in Jesus they can lose their salvation.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— and who then turn away from God.

 

[justbyfaith]

In contrast to Calvinism, which teaches that only the elect can believe in Jesus, Arminianism teaches that each person has the ability to accept or reject Christ.
God has extended prevenient grace to all people which enables all people to make a choice about Jesus, whether to accept him or reject him. Every person has enough grace in their life to make a decision for or against God.

I would say to this that every man does have opportunities to receive Christ, at times in which the Holy Spirit is drawing him; but that he only has the ability to receive Christ during those windows of opportunity.

For I believe that there is a middle ground between total depravity and being born again, in which a person is drawn to Jesus by the Holy Spirit of God; and while being drawn he or she is enabled to make a decision either for or against Christ.

While not being drawn, they cannot help but make a decision against Christ. But I would say that this is only because the gospel is not being presented to them in those moments.

If the gospel is being presented to anyone who is an unbeliever, they are in those moments being drawn by the Holy Spirit to Christ.