Calvinism vs. Arminianism

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Renniks

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I would say to this that every man does have opportunities to receive Christ, at times in which the Holy Spirit is drawing him; but that he only has the ability to receive Christ during those windows of opportunity.

For I believe that there is a middle ground between total depravity and being born again, in which a person is drawn to Jesus by the Holy Spirit of God; and while being drawn he or she is enabled to make a decision either for or against Christ.

While not being drawn, they cannot help but make a decision against Christ. But I would say that this is only because the gospel is not being presented to them in those moments.

If the gospel is being presented to anyone who is an unbeliever, they are in those moments being drawn by the Holy Spirit to Christ.
Good summary.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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No I do not think that God is a monster, I think your theology is monstrous and blasphemous.
Abortion and predestination...What is the difference...God predestines mothers to murder their babies or God predestines babies to be damned? Since God predestined the mothers to murder their babies...are the babies damned? There is no upside except someone felling like they are favored by God over others...the elect...it is a mental quagmire that corrupts the character of people.

I do not believe that God predestines sins, that is your accusation, but not anything of me or the Bible. God predestines those He elects. He allowed sin to enter the world but did not predestine it, your thinking is incorrect.


Don't offend one of these little ones that believe in me....if you teach this to kids you better get yourself fitted for a millstone.
God does get to make the rules...and His rule is Free will. Anything else is just a satanic play with no purpose. What good is worshipping God if He made you do it? Did He create some people to worship Him and create others to be damned...sounds more like something Satan would do. Satan likes to be worshipped and he has fun with the damned. There ya go....Calvinism the religion that serves Satan. Marching to Satan's drum...We are the elect and everyone else is damned! Whooopie!

Well the bible says you are wrong.

Romans 9:18-24
King James Version

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

AS FOR FREE WILL FOR AN UNBELIEVER?????

Romans 8:6-8
King James Version

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

An unsaved person is in the flesh- so how can they "freely" choose god?

Ephesians 2
King James Version

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

We were dead in our sins and by nature children of wrath, where is free will there?

Ephesians 1
King James Version

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


The Bible says here He chose us before we were even created!

Romans 6:12-16
King James Version

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


We are either slaves to sin or to God! slaves have no choice in the matter.

1 Corinthians 2:13-14
King James Version

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The unsaved man cannot even understand the things of god- to the unsaved, they are foolish!

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

We cannot even come to Jesus (free will) unless God the Father draws us

DRAW:
Transliteration
helkō αἱρέω (G138)
Greek Inflections of ἕλκω εἷλκον — 1x
εἵλκυσαν — 1x
εἵλκυσεν — 2x
ἕλκουσιν — 1x
ἑλκύσαι — 1x
ἑλκύσῃ — 1x
ἑλκύσω — 1x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: xxi. σύρω, ἕλκω.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 8x
The KJV translates Strong's G1670 in the following manner: draw (8x).
Outline of Biblical Usage G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):—draw. Compare G1667.

So unless God the Father "drags" us (the word is far stronger than wooing), we would not even come to jesus!

So please explain to me where free will is in the unsaved soul
 

Ronald Nolette

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How do you know he chose you then? You can't know.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I could not love and trust HIm apart from being HIs.
 

Ronald Nolette

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There's no allowing in Calvinism, only causation. Own it. Your theology makes God the cause of all evil.


It is not my theology but Scripture. In the sense of causation, because God is absolutely sovereign and nothing can happen without His approval- then yes He caused evil because He allowed it for His purposes.

According to your theology, if evil happened apart from God, then there is a will in the universe that can overpower Gods will.
 

Cooper

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I do not believe that God predestines sins, that is your accusation, but not anything of me or the Bible. God predestines those He elects. He allowed sin to enter the world but did not predestine it, your thinking is incorrect.




Well the bible says you are wrong.

Romans 9:18-24
King James Version

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

AS FOR FREE WILL FOR AN UNBELIEVER?????

Romans 8:6-8
King James Version

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

An unsaved person is in the flesh- so how can they "freely" choose god?

Ephesians 2
King James Version

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

We were dead in our sins and by nature children of wrath, where is free will there?

Ephesians 1
King James Version

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


The Bible says here He chose us before we were even created!

Romans 6:12-16
King James Version

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


We are either slaves to sin or to God! slaves have no choice in the matter.

1 Corinthians 2:13-14
King James Version

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The unsaved man cannot even understand the things of god- to the unsaved, they are foolish!

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

We cannot even come to Jesus (free will) unless God the Father draws us

DRAW:
Transliteration
helkō αἱρέω (G138)
Greek Inflections of ἕλκω εἷλκον — 1x
εἵλκυσαν — 1x
εἵλκυσεν — 2x
ἕλκουσιν — 1x
ἑλκύσαι — 1x
ἑλκύσῃ — 1x
ἑλκύσω — 1x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: xxi. σύρω, ἕλκω.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 8x
The KJV translates Strong's G1670 in the following manner: draw (8x).
Outline of Biblical Usage G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):—draw. Compare G1667.

So unless God the Father "drags" us (the word is far stronger than wooing), we would not even come to jesus!

So please explain to me where free will is in the unsaved soul
Have you never tried to drag a screaming to school? As soon as you walk away, they will be out of the door. God gives us choice. He says, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden. It is an invitation.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Have you never tried to drag a screaming to school? As soon as you walk away, they will be out of the door.
.


Well we are not screaming kids. But even if we were, God makes us born again and gives us a new nature that desires HIm! So we become willing kids!
 

Grunt Hemlock

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Strongs gives TWO definitions of HELKO - of course the Calvinist does not look at the 2nd one...

"Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. to draw, drag off

  2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel"

Peter drawing his sword to cut the guy's ear off - and the disciples dragging their nets in the water - that fits the first definition.

Jesus being lifted up and HELKOing all men to Himself - that is definitely the second definition - He impels, but does not force; He DRAWS BY INWARD POWER

Compare the two definitions - and the contexts
There is not that many instances of HELKO in the New Testament - look it up and let this Calvinistic nonsense of Jesus "dragging people against their will" be shown for the nonsense that it is.
 

Ronald Nolette

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I would say to this that every man does have opportunities to receive Christ, at times in which the Holy Spirit is drawing him; but that he only has the ability to receive Christ during those windows of opportunity.

For I believe that there is a middle ground between total depravity and being born again, in which a person is drawn to Jesus by the Holy Spirit of God; and while being drawn he or she is enabled to make a decision either for or against Christ.

While not being drawn, they cannot help but make a decision against Christ. But I would say that this is only because the gospel is not being presented to them in those moments.

If the gospel is being presented to anyone who is an unbeliever, they are in those moments being drawn by the Holy Spirit to Christ.


Can you show me biblically these "windows" you speak of?

What happens during these windows? does God suspend our natural man which would never choose Him according to His Word soe we might choose Him?

So these people being drawn and do not accept Christ- they do not come to Jesus? Do they get close and change their minds? I have no clue for I never saw this in the bible.

What about Paul and Jeremiah? they were set apart before they were born? could they have rejected God setting them apart?
 

Ronald Nolette

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Strongs gives TWO definitions of HELKO - of course the Calvinist does not look at the 2nd one...

"Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. to draw, drag off

  2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel"

Peter drawing his sword to cut the guy's ear off - and the disciples dragging their nets in the water - that fits the first definition.

Jesus being lifted up and HELKOing all men to Himself - that is definitely the second definition - He impels, but does not force; He DRAWS BY INWARD POWER

Compare the two definitions - and the contexts
There is not that many instances of HELKO in the New Testament - look it up and let this Calvinistic nonsense of Jesus "dragging people against their will" be shown for the nonsense that it is.


It is not two separate definitions, but two examples of the power of draw in differing situations!

It is not a wooing or luring people to HImself, but a compulsion impel means to "drive" or force.

and to drag or draw means to pull towards with strength. It is not a passive thing but a very active thing
 

Ronald Nolette

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Strongs gives TWO definitions of HELKO - of course the Calvinist does not look at the 2nd one...

"Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. to draw, drag off

  2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel"

Peter drawing his sword to cut the guy's ear off - and the disciples dragging their nets in the water - that fits the first definition.

Jesus being lifted up and HELKOing all men to Himself - that is definitely the second definition - He impels, but does not force; He DRAWS BY INWARD POWER

Compare the two definitions - and the contexts
There is not that many instances of HELKO in the New Testament - look it up and let this Calvinistic nonsense of Jesus "dragging people against their will" be shown for the nonsense that it is.

If men have no capacity to recieve the things of God as the bible clearly and unequivovally shows, then the only way they can come to Christ is against their own nature.
 

Ronald Nolette

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For those who seek the Kingdom of God.
.

Well I have shown that the natural or unsaved man does not seek the kingdom of God, nor even wants to- so you have a real conundrum on your hands if you think man gets to choose on their own.
 

Cooper

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It is not two separate definitions, but two examples of the power of draw in differing situations!

It is not a wooing or luring people to HImself, but a compulsion impel means to "drive" or force.

and to drag or draw means to pull towards with strength. It is not a passive thing but a very active thing
God gave us free will.
.
 
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Grunt Hemlock

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I think Paul kicked against the pricks for a long time...

If Paul was chosen before the foundation of the world, the grace was not irresistible as he grew up at the feet of Gamaliel - it was resistable up until road to Damascus.

But really, we are not Paul, or Jeremah or John the Baptist - we are men subject to the 2nd definition of HELKO
metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel"
 

Ronald Nolette

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God gave us free will.
.

He gave Adam and Eve free will, they lost it. When someone becomes a child of God, free will is restored. Only believers have the power to choose to sin or not sin. As Scripture says anything outside of faith is sin and unbelievers are outside of faith.

Paul says in our human nature dwells no good thing.
Isaiah says that even our own rightwousness is filthy rags before God.

We have free choices in like what to eat, what to wear who to marry etc., but in the ability to choose God or not- unsaved man no longer has that free will, we were allenslaved to sin until Jesus set us free.


So God does not invite the sinner to come unto him, he forces them!

Read the passages I posted for your self and see. Given what teh Bible says about our unsaved nature and that we cannot come to Christ unless impelled, what conclusion do you draw form Gods Word?
 

Cooper

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He gave Adam and Eve free will, they lost it. When someone becomes a child of God, free will is restored. Only believers have the power to choose to sin or not sin. As Scripture says anything outside of faith is sin and unbelievers are outside of faith.

Paul says in our human nature dwells no good thing.
Isaiah says that even our own rightwousness is filthy rags before God.

We have free choices in like what to eat, what to wear who to marry etc., but in the ability to choose God or not- unsaved man no longer has that free will, we were allenslaved to sin until Jesus set us free.




Read the passages I posted for your self and see. Given what teh Bible says about our unsaved nature and that we cannot come to Christ unless impelled, what conclusion do you draw form Gods Word?
You will need to show the scriptures.
.
 

Renniks

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It is not my theology but Scripture. In the sense of causation, because God is absolutely sovereign and nothing can happen without His approval- then yes He caused evil because He allowed it for His purposes.

According to your theology, if evil happened apart from God, then there is a will in the universe that can overpower Gods will.

Once again, you are doing the Calvinist dance": "He allowed it." Not in your doctrine he didn't. He caused it and is the cause of every murder, rape, and atrocity the world has ever known. In your theology, God is not just the father of lights who all good comes from, but the father of darkness who does all evil himself then blames it on Satan and us. Apparently, your God isn't big enough to allow free will and still win in the end. You just don't understand what sovereignty is. I know, because I puzzled with this myself, because of the way Calvinist's explained it. Sovereignty has nothing to do with one's actions. I can be sovereign over my family or a town or city without controlling anyone's actions. It just means I have the final authority to enforce the rules or not enforce them as I see fit. There's no indication biblically that God is micromanaging everyone. If that were true, most of the Bible would be nonsense, as God is constantly telling us that we are doing things he doesn't want us to do. Impossible if God is causing everything we do.
 

Renniks

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We have free choices in like what to eat, what to wear who to marry etc., but in the ability to choose God or not- unsaved man no longer has that free will, we were allenslaved to sin until Jesus set us free
Again, in Calvinism this isn't true. Every choice is God's not ours. To quote John Calvin:

We also note that we should consider the creation of the world so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing happens other than what God decrees.”
[1]


“First, the eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam He decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined.”[2]


“God had no doubt decreed before the foundation of the world what He would do with every one of us and had assigned to everyone by His secret counsel his part in life.”[3]
 

Renniks

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1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I could not love and trust HIm apart from being HIs.
I guess you have not heard of evanescent grace. You should study your religion more.
John Calvin explains: “Experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Hence, it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith is ascribed to them. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption .... there is a great resemblance and affinity between the elect of God and those who are impressed for a time with a fading faith .... Still it is correctly said, that the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them. Nor do I even deny that God illumines their mind to this extent .... there is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent.” (3.2.11, Institutes, emphasis mine)

If God gives some temporary grace and then removes it, no one can really know if they are saved or not.