Calvinism vs. Arminianism

[marks]

It was not my free will. My free will as you call it, could only choose to live the life of debauchery I was living in. I had no capacity to choose God until God gave me that capacity.

When God gave you the capacity to choose, this included the possibility that you might reject God?

Much love!

 

[Cooper]

Like Jesus said- we did not choose HIm, He chose us, and that from before the foundation of the world! Can't get around that truth from the Word of God!

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

The scripture you posted is true, we were all predestined before the foundation of the world, neither are we forced into accepting Gods gift of free salvation. You could have refused if you had wanted.
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[Cooper]

I have given you enough scriptures....you are not interested in scriptures....you just want to feel special. You blasphemy God to hell just so you can feel special.

That is how it is with Calvinists. They feel as though they were specially chosen by God. I always thought Jesus died for "WHOSOEVER WILL COME." How silly of me.
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[Renniks]

But if you look up His argument, you will see they are all based on Scripture! No one can biblically defend any of the five points of Armenius.

Seriously?
It was his study of the Epistle to the Romans as an Amsterdam minister that set Jacob Arminius firmly against Calvinism. Faith, he believed, was the cause of election: "It is an eternal and gracious decree of God in Christ, by which he determines to justify and adopt believers, and to endow them with eternal life but to condemn unbelievers, and impenitent persons."
"That teacher obtains my highest approbation who ascribes as much as possible to divine grace," he assured them, "provided he so pleads the cause of grace, as not to inflict an injury on the justice of God, and not to take away the free will of that which is evil."

 

[Renniks]

Well then explain Romans 8, 1 Corinthians 2 and John 6 as I posted them!

None of those passages claim we can not respond to God when convicted by his Spirit.

 

[Grailhunter]

That is how it is with Calvinists. They feel as though they were specially chosen by God. I always thought Jesus died for the whosoever. How silly of me.
.

Well the Bible says that He died for everybody.
One of the interesting things about the Bible....and one of the reasons I believe in the Living Word that is still teaching us things is that....A person's heart and character will seek out the scriptures and interpretations to reflect their heart and character. It is true.

The Bible says so many things....There are UFO religions....misogyny religions.....religions that do not believe in hell...religions that do not believe in the deity of Christ....there are Christians that believe in drug use....then of course you have the new age religions.

 

[Renniks]

So they do not have a sin nature?

They are saved? Then lose their salvation and have to get it back again? Where is that in Gods Word.

I see JOhn 3:3 ad that means everyone with no exclusions for babies.

What I believe is what I believe. If God chooses to save unborn and babies who die early on- He did not write it in Scripture. But what Scripture says is this:

John 3:3
King James Version

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

No exclusions, no exceptions for babies and those who never hear the gospel! So unless you can show me a biblical exception, I think we should let Gods Word speak with authority!

Unless someone is born again! So unless one can prove a baby is not a someone- it is a hard truth. JUst like this reality:

Romans 9:14-23
King James Version

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Either the Word fo God is our authority in what it says, or we allow our feelings or "common snense" to replace the word of God! I don't like hard sayings like this. but God never aksed to like His truths, just obey them!~

Maybe you better read the whole of Romans, so you can understand what is in view. It's not about individual election. Let me give you a couple thoughts just on those verses tho': First: this verse alone shows we have the will to oppose God:
"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"
Second: Why would God have to be patient with people who never had a choice? If they were destined for hell from birth, there's nothing to be patient with.

 

[Renniks]

Well that is simply a statement of fact! It says nothing about free will or predestination, or how one even gets to the place where they can confess with their mouth! It ONLY says that whoever does something- something will happen. NOt why or how or who empowers or anything else like that!

So, it actually means the one who is forced to receive him? Funny, it doesn't say that. If God is doing everything it's just God receiving God.

 

[Cooper]

Well the Bible says that He died for everybody.
One of the interesting things about the Bible....and one of the reasons I believe in the Living Word that is still teaching us things is that....A person's heart and character will seek out the scriptures and interpretations to reflect their heart and character. It is true.

The Bible says so many things....There are UFO religions....misogyny religions.....religions that do not believe in hell...religions that do not believe in the deity of Christ....there are Christians that believe in drug use....then of course you have the new age religions.

True, and we are beginning to see these various sects coming through onto the forums. I worry about the future of the Christian Church with all these cults nibbling away at the very roots of Christianity.
.

 

[Grailhunter]

True, and we are beginning to see these various sects coming through onto the forums. I worry about the future of the Christian Church with all these cults nibbling away at the very roots of Christianity.
.

I agree with you a hundred percent....
But there is something else....I use to travel a lot to different churches and I was sitting in a church in Cuba...Missouri. And the topic in Sunday school was testifying to non-Christians and "the lost"

Well this lady....middle aged....was talking about her younger sister who was a lesbian. She was saying how sad it made her and that she was worried about her soul and she was always in her prayers...she was sobbing.....

She said her sister asked her if she thought it was alright for her to come to church with her.
She shook her head and she said she asked her if she intended to stop the homosexual activity?
Her sister said, No.
So she told her sister that it would not be right for her to go to church.

Now, like a said, I was traveling around, doing a some research so I was kind of tempered my response.
I said, you might consider going back and telling her that you miss spoke and invite her here next Sunday.
Let her and Christ work it out.

My point here is that, regardless which one of these weird religions these people get mixed up with, Christ might be working it out with them. AHHH! LOL

 

[justbyfaith]

I would say to this that every man does have opportunities to receive Christ, at times in which the Holy Spirit is drawing him; but that he only has the ability to receive Christ during those windows of opportunity.

For I believe that there is a middle ground between total depravity and being born again, in which a person is drawn to Jesus by the Holy Spirit of God; and while being drawn he or she is enabled to make a decision either for or against Christ.

While not being drawn, they cannot help but make a decision against Christ. But I would say that this is only because the gospel is not being presented to them in those moments.

If the gospel is being presented to anyone who is an unbeliever, they are in those moments being drawn by the Holy Spirit to Christ.

Can you show me biblically these "windows" you speak of?

What happens during these windows? does God suspend our natural man which would never choose Him according to His Word soe we might choose Him?

So these people being drawn and do not accept Christ- they do not come to Jesus? Do they get close and change their minds? I have no clue for I never saw this in the bible.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Do you need more?

Like I said, these verses substantiate my viewpoint.

Correct! They had personal free will! Which was destroyed in the fall.

Did the Israelites have free will when Joshua gave the invitation that he gave in Joshua 24:15?

What John Calvin said in His five points are what teh bible teaches, not the other way around! He simply showed what teh bible teaches to rebut Jacob Armenius.

Actually, historically Arminius came up with his doctrine as a response to Calvin.

 

[Behold]

Well these folks do nto come to Christ now do they. Cuz Jesus said this:

Sinners come to Christ the same way, for 2000 yrs.
"faith comes by hearing"

 

[Cooper]

Like Jesus said- we did not choose HIm, He chose us, and that from before the foundation of the world! Can't get around that truth from the Word of God!

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

God chose everyone, and he died for everyone, wretches that we are. He gave his all, we have nothing to give Him, the least we can do is to accept his free gift of salvation, and you talk as though He forced that on you as well. Have you played any part at all? Because otherwise it sounds as though God abducted you.

 

[ChristisGod]

I have not misunderstood what Calvinism teaches...I have learned its teaching through many conversations with those who hold to Calvinistic theology.

I also think that you are evading when you try to say that Calvinists do not really believe what I have set forth as their belief system.

Perhaps you don't believe exactly that way; and perhaps some who identify themselves as Calvinists don't believe that way; but I assure you that this is the faith of Calvinism that I have presented: and therefore if your belief is different you ought to question whether your view is truly Calvinistic in nature.

Have you read Calvins Institutes ?

Just as there are many so called Armimians who do not know what James Arminius taught there are so called Calvinists who do not know what Calvin taught.

 

[Grunt Hemlock]

I have.
It made me feel like vomiting.

 

[ChristisGod]

good for you some people react that way to the truth.

 

[Grunt Hemlock]

it most assuredly was NOT "the truth" that I reacted to.

 

[Grunt Hemlock]

One more thing:

"Ye have not chosen me - but I have chosen you"
That is literally about THE DISCIPLES - in their role as disciples - and the context is NOT about "every Christian".
Yet the eisogesis of Calvinists jumps up and down on the out of context idea that Christ chooses every Christian, taking away any synergy - any part of the individual in choosing to accept Christ.

 

[ChristisGod]

reading

Seriously?
It was his study of the Epistle to the Romans as an Amsterdam minister that set Jacob Arminius firmly against Calvinism. Faith, he believed, was the cause of election: "It is an eternal and gracious decree of God in Christ, by which he determines to justify and adopt believers, and to endow them with eternal life but to condemn unbelievers, and impenitent persons."
"That teacher obtains my highest approbation who ascribes as much as possible to divine grace," he assured them, "provided he so pleads the cause of grace, as not to inflict an injury on the justice of God, and not to take away the free will of that which is evil."

Jacob Arminius writes,

“IN the state of Primitive Innocence, man had a mind endued with a clear understanding of heavenly light and truth concerning God, and his works and will, as far as was sufficient for the salvation of man and the glory of God; he had a heart imbued with ‘righteousness and true holiness,’ and with a true and saving love of good; and powers abundantly qualified or furnished perfectly to fulfill the law which God had imposed on him. This admits easily of proof, from the description of the image of God, after which man is said to have been created, (Gen 1:26-27) from the law divinely imposed on him, which had a promise and a threat appended to it, (Gen 2:17) and lastly from the analogous restoration of the same image in Christ Jesus. (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10)



But man was not so confirmed in this state of innocence, as to be incapable of being moved, by the representation presented to him of some good, (whether it was of an inferior kind and relating to this animal life, or of a superior-kind and relating to spiritual life) inordinately and unlawfully to look upon it and to desire it, and of his own spontaneous as well as free motion, and through a preposterous desire for that good, to decline from the obedience which had been prescribed to him. Nay, having turned away from the light of his own mind and his chief good, which is God, or, at least, having turned towards that chief good not in the manner in which he ought to have done, and besides having turned in mind and heart towards an inferior good, he transgressed the command given to him for life. By this foul deed, he precipitated himself from that noble and elevated condition into a state of the deepest infelicity, which is under the dominion of sin. For ‘to whom any one yields himself a servant to obey,’ (Rom 6:16) and ‘of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage,’ and is his regularly assigned slave. (2 Pet 2:19)



In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, ‘Without me ye can do nothing.’ St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: ‘Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.’ That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man.” 6



Arminius further writes,

“THIS is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace.” 7



Jacobus Arminius: Works of James Arminius, Vol. 1 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I have given you enough scriptures....you are not interested in scriptures....you just want to feel special. You blasphemy God to hell just so you can feel special.

No you haven't but given your animosity and false accusations, it is time to put you on ignore! You are really lousy at reading minds and an expert at bearing false witness.