Calvinism vs. Arminianism

[Ronald Nolette]

You chose not to believe.
Probably because you were not aware of what to believe.
When you became aware of it, you chose to Believe.

Choices are yours. Every single time you make the next one.
You are about to post again.
That is not God causing it, but He know you would.

I notice you just use human reasoning and take no account of SCripture. Interesting indeed!

That is not God causing it, but He know you would.
So, that is God knowing, but not God causing.

So, that is God knowing, but not God causing.
See that?
Once you see it, you can escape your darkness.

Now see if you had bothered to actually read my posts, instead of responding based on some canned preconceived concept in your head, you would have seen multiple times, that I have been saying that all during my posting on this thread! But then that takes actual reading of my posts.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes God is the first cause. Obviously. But you realize that many biblical scholars disagree that the Bible teaches what John Calvin taught. I don't think Calvin came up with the five points, BTW.
God can and does allow us to be little causes. If not, the Bible makes no sense whatsoever. God says he regretted creating man because of his rebellion. How does that work in a world where God causes everything? Does he regret what he caused to happen?

But if you look up His argument, you will see they are all based on Scripture! No one can biblically defend any of the five points of Armenius.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If you had no free will then you could not be blamed for anything you did. That makes God unjust to punish people for just doing what they were programmed to do. it would be like blaming animals for acting like animals.

Well then explain Romans 8, 1 Corinthians 2 and John 6 as I posted them!

"What John Calvin said in His five points are what teh bible teaches, not the other way around! He simply showed what teh bible teaches to rebut Jacob Armenius."

UH - one might research how old Arminius was when Calvin died to see that Calvin did not try to "rebut Jacob Arminius".

Well it was old Jacobs points that Calvin rebutted. I know Jacob had been dead for about 10 years!

 

[Grunt Hemlock]

1509-1564 John Calvin
Jacob Arminius 1559-1609
So Arminius was like 5 years old when Calvin was born

You are off in outer space, Ronald, and know nothing of history - and can't even SPELL Arminius!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Babies are innocent. Do you believe babies who die go to hell?

So they do not have a sin nature?

They are saved? Then lose their salvation and have to get it back again? Where is that in Gods Word.

I see JOhn 3:3 ad that means everyone with no exclusions for babies.

What I believe is what I believe. If God chooses to save unborn and babies who die early on- He did not write it in Scripture. But what Scripture says is this:

John 3:3
King James Version

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

No exclusions, no exceptions for babies and those who never hear the gospel! So unless you can show me a biblical exception, I think we should let Gods Word speak with authority!

Unless someone is born again! So unless one can prove a baby is not a someone- it is a hard truth. JUst like this reality:

Romans 9:14-23
King James Version

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Either the Word fo God is our authority in what it says, or we allow our feelings or "common snense" to replace the word of God! I don't like hard sayings like this. but God never aksed to like His truths, just obey them!~

 

[Ronald Nolette]

""""""6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.""""""

The carnal mind is both at war with God and an enemy of God.
Sin, is death. Carnality is sin. They are "the wages of sin", and that wage , that end result is Death.
Paul said of the born again, that if you continue to exist in carnality, you "will die".

"""1 Cor. 2:

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.""""""

The natural man, is the unbeliever, or its the born again who has fallen from Grace, and now exists as a "self saver" who does not actually trust Christ, and Paul defines them as "bewitched" and "in the Flesh".
In both cases, the ability to hear the Spirit of God, is broken.

Hear I agree, but the natural or unsaved man does not even perceive the things of God. The saved man is now a spiritual man.

 

[Grunt Hemlock]

'Renniks said: ↑
...
I don't think Calvin came up with the five points, BTW.'

Renniks is correct - look up TULIP that lists the 5 points and see how LATE TULIP was concocted.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

"""""""44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."""""

This is the conviction of the Holy Spirit upon the person when the Gospel is being preached.
Jesus said. "if i be lifted up, i will draw all men to myself"..

Lifted up = Cross.

Drawing is.. "faith comes by HEARING, and hearing by the word of God"

That is, "the preaching of the Cross" that is HEARD and Ether rejected or believed.


"""""""""""""65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.""""""

That is verse 44.
Its like this..
The Holy Spirit is always calling ,drawing, wooing, welcoming.
That is the Father offering Salvation as John 3:16.
So, all that receive it are those that are now become Jesus's possession.
They are "bought with a price", and that price is the Blood of God.

Well these folks do nto come to Christ now do they. Cuz Jesus said this:

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

So if we are to believe the Bible without ones pithy little commentary- folks who do nto come to Christ were not given to Jesus by the Father. It's right there for everyone to see!

And you ignore that teh saved are the elect (chosen) before the foundation of the world.

That is why Jesus could say this of the unsaved:

John 3:36
King James Version

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

And this is in the present active indicative construct- so unbelievers have Gods wrath already abiding on them! So much for the Spirit wooing the lost.

What the Spirit does is call the lost sheep back to teh fold- not the goats.

What the Spirit does is gather the wheat into the Fathers barns, not turn the tares to wheat!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

1509-1564 John Calvin
Jacob Arminius 1559-1609
So Arminius was like 5 years old when Calvin was born

You are off in outer space, Ronald, and know nothing of history - and can't even SPELL Arminius!

so for my dates I am have the solar system, but the argument is still sound! The council of Dort in 1619 debated the five points of Calvin vs. the rising tide of arminianism. and I don't care if I can spell arminius right. YOu seem to know enough what and whom I am ttalking about, that is the issue and not how great my spelling is.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

'Renniks said: ↑
...
I don't think Calvin came up with the five points, BTW.'

Renniks is correct - look up TULIP that lists the 5 points and see how LATE TULIP was concocted.

they are Calvins teachings which He got from Scripture as you should know! If you want I can cut and past over 1,000,000 websites that call them the five points of calvin or calvinism! Now would you like to get back to teh main issue or do you wish to still strain at my little gnats i erron while you swallow the camels?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No not a one of them are true. The preservation of the saints is interesting, because I think Calvinism is one of the instances that sets up a Christian to fail on Judgment day. The alternative down side of Unconditional election is unconditional damnation. Even if you say some Christians are specially elected, it still runs in to issues with the belief of destiny and favoritism. Between John Calvin and St. Augustine, they pretty much came up with the wrong answer to everything.

View attachment 13662

Well I can't argue against what you wish to make up in contrast to the points. Especially as you have a drought of Scripture to support even these new hypotheses of yours in this post!

God elected a nation to call His own? Favoritism? Gentiles were without hope and without God in the OT favoritism?
God says this in Romans 9:

Romans 9:14-23
King James Version

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Ythe way you write, you sound like you are in contention to be the poster child for verse 19!

 

[Grunt Hemlock]

Around 1905 someone formulated the TULIP acronym

Some followers of Arminius after his death formulated 5 points of Remonstrance - there were never any "5 Points of Arminius"

 

[Cooper]

Just like the bible said!

So, of your own free will, you converted from being an unbeliever to a believer.
I am pleased for you, and for you proving Calvinism wrong.
Thank you.
.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Those verses are telling us not to be carnally minded. Otherwise, they are pointless. If we have no choice in the matter, why teach us that we have no choice in the matter? That's absurd. It's like mocking someone for being ignorant when they can't do otherwise.

No the verses are saying that those in the flesh cannot please God!

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Please highlight th e areas where Paul is exhorting people to not live in the flesh?

YOu can make up all sorts of pithy little retorts, but you can't get past that the unsaved person (those in the flesh) CANNOT please God!

There is no capacity in an unsaved person to please God!

Romans 5 goes even further and tells us we were Gods enemies.

Ephesians 2 tells us that we are by nature objects of Gods wrath!

Jeremiah tells us there is no soundness in teh unsaved.

Isaiah says our righteousness is filthy rags
David in teh Pslams said we were conceived in iniquity.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Like this?:
"Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

That takes the power of choice. Like this?: "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God"
Receiving something is a choice, is it not?

Well that is simply a statement of fact! It says nothing about free will or predestination, or how one even gets to the place where they can confess with their mouth! It ONLY says that whoever does something- something will happen. NOt why or how or who empowers or anything else like that!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So, of your own free will, you converted from being an unbeliever to a believer.
I am pleased for you, and for you proving Calvinism wrong.
Thank you.
.

It was not my free will. My free will as you call it, could only choose to live the life of debauchery I was living in. I had no capacity to choose God until God gave me that capacity.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Around 1905 someone formulated the TULIP acronym

Some followers of Arminius after his death formulated 5 points of Remonstrance - there were never any "5 Points of Arminius"

Straining at gnats. Those points were based on Arminius.

The "Remonstrants" highlighted five aspects of their theology: (1) election was conditional on foreseen faith; (2) Christ's atonement was unlimited in extent; (3) total depravity; (4) prevenient and resistible grace; and (5) necessity of perseverance and the possibility of apostasy.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So, of your own free will, you converted from being an unbeliever to a believer.
I am pleased for you, and for you proving Calvinism wrong.
Thank you.
.

Like Jesus said- we did not choose HIm, He chose us, and that from before the foundation of the world! Can't get around that truth from the Word of God!

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

 

[Grailhunter]

Well I can't argue against what you wish to make up in contrast to the points. Especially as you have a drought of Scripture to support even these new hypotheses of yours in this post!

God elected a nation to call His own? Favoritism? Gentiles were without hope and without God in the OT favoritism?
God says this in Romans 9:

Romans 9:14-23
King James Version

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Ythe way you write, you sound like you are in contention to be the poster child for verse 19!

I have given you enough scriptures....you are not interested in scriptures....you just want to feel special. You blasphemy God to hell just so you can feel special.

 

[marks]

Around 1905 someone formulated the TULIP acronym

Some followers of Arminius after his death formulated 5 points of Remonstrance - there were never any "5 Points of Arminius"

I like to think of this as the Calvinist "TULIP" and the Arminius "Daisy", He saved me, He saved me not, He saved me . . .