Calvinism vs. Arminianism

[Behold]

the Bible clearly teaches the unsaved are incapable of choosing God thus do not have free will.

Every person who is born again, chose Christ.

Freewill.

See, Think of it like this... Could God send you to hell, righteously, honestly, and justly, if He does not allow you to Trust Christ?

Could God be TRUTH and HONESTY< if He caused you to be lost, or would not allow you to be saved, and then sends you to hell for not being saved?

See, you just have to think, and use a little common sense.
If not, the cults will keep you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Freewill.
See... that is all yours., Ronald.
That's on you....
God is not responsible for your choices. (Freewill)... He is only responsible for giving you HIS WILL that He would have you choose, but will not make you choose.

Inside your mind is a CONSCIENCE. And that is the steering wheel regarding your behavior.
You own the wheel, but God owns the Conscience.
He wont take the wheel from you, but He has given you the right road to choose.
But the road you take, His, or yours......is YOUR CHOICE.

But when I was an unbeliever I had no free will. I could not choose God on my own no matter how long I had! As a believer I have free will restored to me and yes my sins are mine to own! I never said different. You are just vomiting out old canned lines agains the biblecal teaching of Gods sovereignty vs. Mans free will. REad Romans 5.

We are born condemned because of Adam we are born agains saved because of jesus!

YOu are arguing something I am not arguing about!

Because nothing can happen in the universe without Gods initial approval- He allowed sin to enter into teh world. That does not mean He forced it to happen or designed it to happen, but simply allowed it to happen according to His Will, whether we fully understand or like it.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Scripture evidence for this strange interpretation?
Being objects of wrath makes no sense if we don't choose sin of our own will. If God chooses it for us, which is the logical conclusion of Calvinism, he's punishing people for what he did!

So do you believe that people are saved until they commit their first sin and then lost their salvation and have to get born again-again?

 

[Cooper]

If unsaved man has free will I would agrtee with you, but the Bible clearly teaches the unsaved are incapable of choosing God thus do not have free will.

God gave Adam and Eve free will as well as the angels. Satna and 1/3 of teh angels chose evil, and Adam and Eve did as well. we are products of our fallen parents with a spirit that is dead due to sin.

And you are drawing false conclusions about what teh bible teaches. If God refused to allow it to happen, it would not happen. Do you believe that?

Do you believe that Gods will is the absolute sovereign will of the Universe?
Do you believe that nothing can happen without God allowing believe that Satan would have fallen, if God had not absolutely allowed Him to choose to fall or not??

Now just because God allows it to happen, does not mean He made it happen. He foreknew it would happen and allowed it to happen or His purposes and to work out His will according to His counsel and not mans reasoning!

Paul was unsaved, I was unsaved, but like millions of others I accepted Christ as my saviour. To say the unsaved are incapable of accepting Christ is not correct, unwilling yes, but that is their choice.
.

 

[Cooper]

But when I was an unbeliever I had no free will. I could not choose God on my own no matter how long I had! As a believer I have free will restored to me and yes my sins are mine to own! I never said different. You are just vomiting out old canned lines agains the biblecal teaching of Gods sovereignty vs. Mans free will. REad Romans 5.

We are born condemned because of Adam we are born agains saved because of jesus!

YOu are arguing something I am not arguing about!

Because nothing can happen in the universe without Gods initial approval- He allowed sin to enter into teh world. That does not mean He forced it to happen or designed it to happen, but simply allowed it to happen according to His Will, whether we fully understand or like it.

If you had no free will as an unbeliever, how did you come to accept Christ?
.

 

[Behold]

---------

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Every person who is born again, chose Christ.

Freewill.

See, Think of it like this... Could God send you to hell, righteously, honestly, and justly, if He does not allow you to Trust Christ?

Could God be TRUTH and HONESTY< if He caused you to be lost, or would not allow you to be saved, and then sends you to hell for not being saved?

See, you just have to think, and use a little common sense.
If not, the cults will keep you.

Well as I am not in a cult- that is just a not so subtle ad-hominem on your part to besmirch.

And Common sense has no place in a biblical argument especially when the Bible contradicts common snese!

But why don't you take your common sense and tell us what these verses mean if they are saying something other than what teh words say in their normal usual understanding?

John 6:

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

romans 8:

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

1 Cor. 2:

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Seems to me a natural normal reding of these tell me that unsaved man has no free will.

 

[Behold]

But when I was an unbeliever I had no free will. I could not choose God.

You chose not to believe.
Probably because you were not aware of what to believe.
When you became aware of it, you chose to Believe.

Choices are yours. Every single time you make the next one.
You are about to post again.
That is not God causing it, but He know you would.
So, that is God knowing, but not God causing.
See that?
Once you see it, you can escape your darkness.

 

[Renniks]

What John Calvin said in His five points are what teh bible teaches, not the other way around! He simply showed what teh bible teaches to rebut Jacob Armenius. And in the sense that nothing in the universe can be unless God allows it, then yes He is the first cause, because if He doesn't allow it it cannot happen. Do you agree with that statement? Yes or no. Or do you believe there is an entity in the universe that has a will stronger than Gods.

Yes God is the first cause. Obviously. But you realize that many biblical scholars disagree that the Bible teaches what John Calvin taught. I don't think Calvin came up with the five points, BTW.
God can and does allow us to be little causes. If not, the Bible makes no sense whatsoever. God says he regretted creating man because of his rebellion. How does that work in a world where God causes everything? Does he regret what he caused to happen?

 

[Renniks]

Seems to me a natural normal reding of these tell me that unsaved man has no free will.

If you had no free will then you could not be blamed for anything you did. That makes God unjust to punish people for just doing what they were programmed to do. it would be like blaming animals for acting like animals.

 

[Renniks]

So do you believe that people are saved until they commit their first sin and then lost their salvation and have to get born again-again?

Babies are innocent. Do you believe babies who die go to hell?

 

[Behold]

Well as I am not in a cult- that is just a not so subtle ad-hominem on your part to besmirch.

And Common sense has no place in a biblical argument especially when the Bible contradicts common snese!

But why don't you take your common sense and tell us what these verses mean if they are saying something other than what teh words say in their normal usual understanding?

John 6:

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

romans 8:

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

1 Cor. 2:

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Seems to me a natural normal reding of these tell me that unsaved man has no free will.

OK.

one by one..
John 6:

"""""""44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."""""

This is the conviction of the Holy Spirit upon the person when the Gospel is being preached.
Jesus said. "if i be lifted up, i will draw all men to myself"..

Lifted up = Cross.

Drawing is.. "faith comes by HEARING, and hearing by the word of God"

That is, "the preaching of the Cross" that is HEARD and Ether rejected or believed.


"""""""""""""65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.""""""

That is verse 44.
Its like this..
The Holy Spirit is always calling ,drawing, wooing, welcoming.
That is the Father offering Salvation as John 3:16.
So, all that receive it are those that are now become Jesus's possession.
They are "bought with a price", and that price is the Blood of God.


""""""""romans 8:
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."""""""

Thats all people, including the born again.
All unbelievers, exit as a carnal mind. (mind of the flesh)
All believers, have been delivered from the power of sin, so that they, now being "under Grace" can exist NOT IN< their carnal mind.
Most do not exit in this mind of Christ....most continue to exist in a place of confusion, and carnality.
This is why they sin and confess.


""""""6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.""""""

The carnal mind is both at war with God and an enemy of God.
Sin, is death. Carnality is sin. They are "the wages of sin", and that wage , that end result is Death.
Paul said of the born again, that if you continue to exist in carnality, you "will die".

"""1 Cor. 2:

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.""""""

The natural man, is the unbeliever, or its the born again who has fallen from Grace, and now exists as a "self saver" who does not actually trust Christ, and Paul defines them as "bewitched" and "in the Flesh".
In both cases, the ability to hear the Spirit of God, is broken.



""""""7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.""""

The carnal mind is the "mind of the flesh".
So, that is the mentality or the mindset of unbelief or failed belief.
Unbelief = a lost sinner, who is not saved
Failed belief = is anyone who believes they can lose their salvation.



"""""8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."""

In the flesh is to be an unbeliever.
To be born again and be in the flesh, is to be "fallen from Grace", and you are now trying to keep yourself saved.. You have lost faith in Christ and have faith in SELF to try to keep youself from going to Hell.
That is to be born again ,and "in the flesh", or in the carnal mind.

 

[Grailhunter]

Well for this thread as to "Calvinism vs. Armenianism" I believe the five points of Calvin are 100% biblical, in their basic definititon.

IN addressing the further points of Calvinism, I do not know if I agree with them all. I am not part of a calvinistic church nor a reformed church.

No not a one of them are true. The preservation of the saints is interesting, because I think Calvinism is one of the instances that sets up a Christian to fail on Judgment day. The alternative down side of Unconditional election is unconditional damnation. Even if you say some Christians are specially elected, it still runs in to issues with the belief of destiny and favoritism. Between John Calvin and St. Augustine, they pretty much came up with the wrong answer to everything.

 

[Grailhunter]

Well as I am not in a cult- that is just a not so subtle ad-hominem on your part to besmirch.

And Common sense has no place in a biblical argument especially when the Bible contradicts common snese!

But why don't you take your common sense and tell us what these verses mean if they are saying something other than what teh words say in their normal usual understanding?

John 6:

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

romans 8:

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

1 Cor. 2:

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Seems to me a natural normal reding of these tell me that unsaved man has no free will.

There are a lot of good people out there that are not Christian. There are a lot of good people in other religions. But it takes more than just being good and good deeds to save a person and get them to heaven. There are a lot of good Calvinists out there, but they will not make it past Judgment Day. The basic doctrines of Calvinism characterize Christ's father as something between a monster and Satan himself...I don't think it will go over good with Christ.

 

[marks]

The fact that you read this and may realize that that is what you were doing and also cease from hardening your heart against the reality of the matter.

What I'm doing is discussing a Scriptural interpretation with you. What you are doing is discussing me with me. Let's stick to the Bible.

Just because you disagree with my interpretation of a verse gives you no cause nor right to start slinging those labels around.

"Oh, you don't agree, so you have a hard heart!"

Let's stop with that nonsense.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So, you cannot bank on it as applying to you personally unless you have somehow obtained it as a promise by faith in a supernatural manner.

Let's not play these games. I'm not interested.

Much love!

 

[Renniks]

Well as I am not in a cult- that is just a not so subtle ad-hominem on your part to besmirch.

And Common sense has no place in a biblical argument especially when the Bible contradicts common snese!

But why don't you take your common sense and tell us what these verses mean if they are saying something other than what teh words say in their normal usual understanding?

John 6:

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

romans 8:

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

1 Cor. 2:

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Seems to me a natural normal reding of these tell me that unsaved man has no free will.

Those verses are telling us not to be carnally minded. Otherwise, they are pointless. If we have no choice in the matter, why teach us that we have no choice in the matter? That's absurd. It's like mocking someone for being ignorant when they can't do otherwise.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If you had no free will as an unbeliever, how did you come to accept Christ?
.

Just like the bible said!

 

[Renniks]

Just like the bible said!

Like this?:
"Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

That takes the power of choice. Like this?: "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God"
Receiving something is a choice, is it not?

 

[Grunt Hemlock]

"What John Calvin said in His five points are what teh bible teaches, not the other way around! He simply showed what teh bible teaches to rebut Jacob Armenius."

UH - one might research how old Arminius was when Calvin died to see that Calvin did not try to "rebut Jacob Arminius".