Calvinism vs. Arminianism

[Ronald Nolette]

Only it don't.

It do as Romans 8, 1 Cor. 2, Jer, Is. Romans 3 all show- the unsaved man given eternity, will not choose God in and on themselves! YOu deny Clear Scripture to promote your implied teaching and philosophical cponclusions without the support of empirical scripture.

 

[Enoch111]

But you should not teach the bible declares the unsaved have free will and not bring about Scripture to show the unsaved man can choose [G]od when the Bible clearly says they cannot!

Well, actually the Bible says the exact opposite. All the unsaved are invited to choose God! Therefore Calvinism is a perversion of the Gospel.

Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. (Isa 55:6,7)

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (Isa 45:22)

 

[Renniks]

YOu err because you imply I say God forces people to love darkness and that is a lie!

People love darkness on their own and choose darkness by default due to our fallen nature!

Once again you bear false witness against me. It is not my theology and nor do I teach or believe your lie against me! People are born fallen and lost because we came from fallen parents who came from fallen parents etc. all the way back to Adam and Eve, We love darkness because as it says in GODS Word (not my theology)

Ephesians 2
King James Version

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


The bible declares most people do not receive the light. So you have a problem with the Word of God and not me!

We by nature choose darkness. Your problem is you disbelieve the clear teaching of the Word of God to rely on possible implications and maybes.

Amen! But you stopped short:
. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Now, before you start the other Calvinist misinterpretation that they use here: Grace is not from us. But faith is required of us.

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Who is left out of this picture? Not Jew and not Gentiles Who can't get saved? Every person has access to salvation. There's no dividing wall.
"He himself was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9The TRUE Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world.
Every man. If men continue to walk in darkness it's because they refuse the light.
18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil.

Does scripture say God doesn't enlighten everyone? No it says men love the darkness because they don't want their evil deeds exposed. Your theology places the reason and blame for men rejecting the light squarely on God, not on men where it belongs.

 

[Enoch111]

So I wonder why God loves evil things?

There is a huge difference between loving evil things and loving sinful humanity. God loves mankind, whom He created in His image and in His likeness. He desires the salvation of all human beings, and the Gospel is to be preached to every creature. And God demonstrated His love for humanity in sending His Only Begotten Son into the world to die on the cross as the Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world.

How is it that people get things all twisted up, especially the Calvinists with their nonsensical gospel?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well, actually the Bible says the exact opposite. All the unsaved are invited to choose God! Therefore Calvinism is a perversion of the Gospel.

Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. (Isa 55:6,7)

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (Isa 45:22)

Well as I said, I care less what Calvinism teaches, but what the Bible teaches. And the bible teaches clearly and without ambiguity that teh unsaved man has not the capacity nor the desire to choose God!

And we have the billions that3 never even had a choice. Generations have lived and died never hearing the gospel and thus lost for they had no chance of redemption.

Romans 3:10-12
King James Version

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Romans 7:14-18
King James Version

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Romans 8:5-8
King James Version

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 9:16-24
King James Version

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

1 Corinthians 2:13-14
King James Version

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Yes God sends out a generic general invitation, I agree 100%. But the unsaved man cannot respond to that invitation in and of themselves!

Even the old Testament bears that out:

Isaiah 1:5-6
King James Version

5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

 

[Cooper]

YOu need serious help. You are obsessed with cults. So anyone who disagrees with you is in a cult. Ok then Got it! There is the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and Cooper!

There are four. Father, Son, the Holy Spirit, and the opposer.

From the time of Christ onwards, there have always been those who have given the Apostle Paul and many others down the ages, good reason to be concerned for the children of God.
.

 

[Renniks]

So show a scripture verse desribing prevenient grace giving humanity which cannot please God according to His Word, the ability to please God. Not an implication or a philosophical conclusion, but a Scripture verse that shows God gives peoplea "neutral zone" where they can make a choice that will please HIm.

I can show you verses where it show's that God uses prevenient grace and causes rain to fall on the just and unjust, but I don't see grace opening up a "window of opportunity". or whatever you wish to call it.

Sure, I'll show you a bunch of them.

John 12:32 declares that all men are drawn to Christ.
John 16:8-11 we see that the ongoing ministry of the Spirit is to convict the entire world of its sin of unbelief (the suppression of truth cf. Rom. 1:18-32).
Titus 2:11 clearly states that God's grace has appeared to all men but from this passage we cannot conclude that all men will be saved. Yet the grace spoken of here cannot be explained as simply a common grace. This is because the purpose of the grace spoken of was to bring people to salvation (something that common grace in Reformed thought is never said to do).

Acts 2 reports that on the day of Pentecost "Jews from every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5) were gathered together and after hearing the apostle Peter's discourse, they were awakened by the Spirit and asked the apostle, "What shall we do?" (Acts 2:37). They were not saved at this point so why are they asking unless God's grace had preveniently gone before and convicted them of their sins?

In Acts 8 we see the Ethiopian eunuch so moved by the Spirit as to read Isaiah. When Philip was led to join him in the Bible study the Ethiopian was eager to receive greater instruction (Acts 8:31). Why?

In Acts 9 Saul is smitten by the Holy Spirit three days before he was told to arise and be baptized and wash away his sins and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In Acts 10 we see the Holy Spirit working with devout Cornelius and causing Peter to go to him. Cornelius was not a New Testament Christian at this time, but was a "God-fearer" because he sought to serve God in spirit and in truth.


Acts 26:28
28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.”

27 King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you do believe.”

28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.”

29 And Paul said, “I would to God that not only you, but also all who hear me today, might become both almost and altogether such as I am, except for these chains.”

30 When he had said these things, the king stood up, as well as the governor and Bernice and those who sat with them; 31 and when they had gone aside, they talked among themselves, saying, “This man is doing nothing deserving of death or chains.”

Agrippa is obviously being worked on by the Holy Spirit, but he balks and stops short of giving in.

 

[Renniks]

YOu need serious help. You are obsessed with cults. So anyone who disagrees with you is in a cult. Ok then Got it! There is the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and Cooper!

Angry much?

 

[Grailhunter]

NO, you shouldn't! But you should not teach the bible declares the unsaved have free will and not bring about Scripture to show the unsaved man can choose god when the Bible clearly says they cannot!

I guess you do not read much? People tell you what to believe?

The story of Pentecost...Act 2:37-42
Act 5:14

There are accounts of people that hear the Word and believe. All you have to do is read.

There is no account or example of a verse that says anything like, And they heard the Word and God took control of there minds and forced them to believe.

or

There is no account or example of a verse that says anything like, and they heard the Word of God and those in the crowd that were predestined to be forced to believe...believed.

 

[Grailhunter]

So show a scripture verse desribing prevenient grace giving humanity which cannot please God according to His Word, the ability to please God. Not an implication or a philosophical conclusion, but a Scripture verse that shows God gives peoplea "neutral zone" where they can make a choice that will please HIm.

I can show you verses where it show's that God uses prevenient grace and causes rain to fall on the just and unjust, but I don't see grace opening up a "window of opportunity". or whatever you wish to call it.

You really got some junk going on in your head!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Amen! But you stopped short:
. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Now, before you start the other Calvinist misinterpretation that they use here: Grace is not from us. But faith is required of us.

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Who is left out of this picture? Not Jew and not Gentiles Who can't get saved? Every person has access to salvation. There's no dividing wall.
"He himself was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9The TRUE Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world.
Every man. If men continue to walk in darkness it's because they refuse the light.
18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil.

Does scripture say God doesn't enlighten everyone? No it says men love the darkness because they don't want their evil deeds exposed. Your theology places the reason and blame for men rejecting the light squarely on God, not on men where it belongs.

Well to answer your last sentence. I told you before I don't teach that more than once- Now I call you a bearer of false testimony!

YOu have been repeatedly told I don't believe and continue to accuse me of it after being corrected. You are lying to all here

Eph. 2:8-10 show more of a predestination than free will thing- Verse 10 " We are HIs handiwork! (Go back and read Romans 9)

Yes the mystery of the old testament revealed in the new is that Gentiles as Gentiles could come to christ!

Yes faith is required of us! But even saving faith is a gift from God and not of our own! Romans 10. We do not possess that faith but it is given to us!

Until you apologize for intentionally lying about what you call "my theology", I will have no more communication with you. YOu sir have taken the path of evil in this discussion.

 

[Grailhunter]

Sure, I'll show you a bunch of them.

John 12:32 declares that all men are drawn to Christ.
John 16:8-11 we see that the ongoing ministry of the Spirit is to convict the entire world of its sin of unbelief (the suppression of truth cf. Rom. 1:18-32).
Titus 2:11 clearly states that God's grace has appeared to all men but from this passage we cannot conclude that all men will be saved. Yet the grace spoken of here cannot be explained as simply a common grace. This is because the purpose of the grace spoken of was to bring people to salvation (something that common grace in Reformed thought is never said to do).

Acts 2 reports that on the day of Pentecost "Jews from every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5) were gathered together and after hearing the apostle Peter's discourse, they were awakened by the Spirit and asked the apostle, "What shall we do?" (Acts 2:37). They were not saved at this point so why are they asking unless God's grace had preveniently gone before and convicted them of their sins?

In Acts 8 we see the Ethiopian eunuch so moved by the Spirit as to read Isaiah. When Philip was led to join him in the Bible study the Ethiopian was eager to receive greater instruction (Acts 8:31). Why?

In Acts 9 Saul is smitten by the Holy Spirit three days before he was told to arise and be baptized and wash away his sins and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In Acts 10 we see the Holy Spirit working with devout Cornelius and causing Peter to go to him. Cornelius was not a New Testament Christian at this time, but was a "God-fearer" because he sought to serve God in spirit and in truth.


Acts 26:28
28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.”

27 King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you do believe.”

28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.”

29 And Paul said, “I would to God that not only you, but also all who hear me today, might become both almost and altogether such as I am, except for these chains.”

30 When he had said these things, the king stood up, as well as the governor and Bernice and those who sat with them; 31 and when they had gone aside, they talked among themselves, saying, “This man is doing nothing deserving of death or chains.”

Agrippa is obviously being worked on by the Holy Spirit, but he balks and stops short of giving in.

He has been shown dozens of scriptures...it does not matter...he is brainwashed.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Angry much?

I am not angry in th e least with your ad-hominems and straw men. Saddened actually that you have to stoop as low as you do because someone dares disagree with your positrion.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There are four. Father, Son, the Holy Spirit, and the opposer.

From the time of Christ onwards, there have always been those who have given the Apostle Paul and many others down the ages, good reason to be concerned for the children of God.
.

well tehn I guess you are the opposer. YOu have shown that to disagree with Cooper is to be accussed of being in a cult. that takes special knowledge, especially seeing you have no clue what church I belong to.

 

[Cooper]

Angry much?

Lacking the grace of God that is imparted to all his children.
.

 

[Grailhunter]

Even a child would know better.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There are four. Father, Son, the Holy Spirit, and the opposer.

From the time of Christ onwards, there have always been those who have given the Apostle Paul and many others down the ages, good reason to be concerned for the children of God.
.

And you are implying I am one of those who give the Apostles concern. Ergo I am a wolf in sheeps clothing! WOW! The defense of a cad! When one cannot argue rationally why they disagree, they always resort to subtle and not so subtle name calling.

 

[Cooper]

well tehn I guess you are the opposer. YOu have shown that to disagree with Cooper is to be accussed of being in a cult. that takes special knowledge, especially seeing you have no clue what church I belong to.

I recognise those who have not the truth.
.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Angry much?

Are you channeling Cooper now as well? To let you know that your mind reading skills would cause you to starve if you tried to make al iving on them, I am sad for you and cooper.

I am very blunt and direct, and in this day and age, far too many people perceive this as anger. wel it is not despite what you think or feel. Sorry.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Lacking the grace of God that is imparted to all his children.
.

So now I may not even be saved? first I was in a cult, now this? And you think you ooze that grace you accuse me of not having?