Calvinism vs. Arminianism

[Kermos]

John 3:16 And The Word "World"

The first order is to look at Lord Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14-16).

The second order is to examine the history of "the serpent in the wilderness" that Jesus mentions (see John 3:14):

Then YHWH said to Moses, "Make a fiery [serpent], and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. (Numbers 21:8-9)

The third order is to listen to the Master.

Jesus sets "the serpent in the wilderness" "lifted up" in relation to "the Son of Man" "lifted up" (all in John 3:14).

Jesus then states "so that every believing will in" Jesus "have eternal life" (John 3:15), but He intensifies this statement by repeating it right away.

Jesus continues with "for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son" (John 3:16), and here is where Jesus mentions "world".

Jesus follows up with intensifying his prior declaration (John 3:15) with "that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

The fourth order is to acknowledge the Master's words.

Jesus mentioned "the serpent in the wilderness", so by this He brings up the account of the bronze serpent (John 3:16 includes Numbers 21:8-9).

The relation that Jesus set between the bronze serpent lifted up and Himself lifted up bears significance upon the population of persons that Jesus establishes for the word "world" in John 3:16.

For the next four paragraphs, we see the Word of God speaking to Moses (Numbers 21:8) in relation to the Word of God speaking to Nicodemus (John 3:16).

Notice how "everyone who is bitten" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "world" (John 3:16).

Notice how "when he" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "that every" (John 3:16, note that the Greek word pas [Strongs 3956] translates accurately as "every" not so much as the unfettered promiscuous "whosoever").

Notice how "look" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "believing" (John 3:16).

Notice how "live" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "eternal life" (John 3:16).

God told Moses that a person bitten by one of the serpents "will live" when the person looks at "the serpent in the wilderness".

Based on God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" (Numbers 21:8) and the results of the bronze serpent that Moses set on the standard (Numbers 21:9), the population of persons that certainly were affected by God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" in order to live were ONLY each bitten person that looked at "the serpent in the wilderness".

In other words, the population of persons associated with living by looking at "the serpent in the wilderness" was restricted to ONLY the bitten persons that looked at the bronze serpent. For simplicity, I'll call this the "population of bitten look livers".

Furthermore, there is a different population of persons. This population of persons are not in the "population of bitten look livers". For example, this population of persons could include bitten persons that DID NOT LOOK AT "the serpent in the wilderness". This population of persons I'll call the "population of non-bitten-look-livers".

Therefore, there are separate populations of persons identified in Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:14-16). There was the "population of bitten look livers"; meanwhile, there was the "population of non-bitten-look-livers"

Jesus sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including the "population of bitten look livers" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9) and the population of persons represented by the word "world" who believe in Jesus (John 3:16).

God requires for persons to believe in Jesus in order to be granted eternal life by God (John 3:15, John 3:16).

@justbyfaith, @Grailhunter, and @Renniks, this relation set by Jesus establishes that the word "world" as used by Jesus includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.

 

[Renniks]

The Apostle John potently wrote "lies in" as in "abides inside" and "lives according to" and "is of".

Thanks for proving my point. Yes we lie in the world, but are not of the world. We abide in a world that is under at least partial control of evil.

 

[Renniks]

John 3:16 And The Word "World"

The first order is to look at Lord Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14-16).

The second order is to examine the history of "the serpent in the wilderness" that Jesus mentions (see John 3:14):

Then YHWH said to Moses, "Make a fiery [serpent], and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. (Numbers 21:8-9)

The third order is to listen to the Master.

Jesus sets "the serpent in the wilderness" "lifted up" in relation to "the Son of Man" "lifted up" (all in John 3:14).

Jesus then states "so that every believing will in" Jesus "have eternal life" (John 3:15), but He intensifies this statement by repeating it right away.

Jesus continues with "for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son" (John 3:16), and here is where Jesus mentions "world".

Jesus follows up with intensifying his prior declaration (John 3:15) with "that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

The fourth order is to acknowledge the Master's words.

Jesus mentioned "the serpent in the wilderness", so by this He brings up the account of the bronze serpent (John 3:16 includes Numbers 21:8-9).

The relation that Jesus set between the bronze serpent lifted up and Himself lifted up bears significance upon the population of persons that Jesus establishes for the word "world" in John 3:16.

For the next four paragraphs, we see the Word of God speaking to Moses (Numbers 21:8) in relation to the Word of God speaking to Nicodemus (John 3:16).

Notice how "everyone who is bitten" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "world" (John 3:16).

Notice how "when he" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "that every" (John 3:16, note that the Greek word pas [Strongs 3956] translates accurately as "every" not so much as the unfettered promiscuous "whosoever").

Notice how "look" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "believing" (John 3:16).

Notice how "live" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "eternal life" (John 3:16).

God told Moses that a person bitten by one of the serpents "will live" when the person looks at "the serpent in the wilderness".

Based on God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" (Numbers 21:8) and the results of the bronze serpent that Moses set on the standard (Numbers 21:9), the population of persons that certainly were affected by God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" in order to live were ONLY each bitten person that looked at "the serpent in the wilderness".

In other words, the population of persons associated with living by looking at "the serpent in the wilderness" was restricted to ONLY the bitten persons that looked at the bronze serpent. For simplicity, I'll call this the "population of bitten look livers".

Furthermore, there is a different population of persons. This population of persons are not in the "population of bitten look livers". For example, this population of persons could include bitten persons that DID NOT LOOK AT "the serpent in the wilderness". This population of persons I'll call the "population of non-bitten-look-livers".

Therefore, there are separate populations of persons identified in Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:14-16). There was the "population of bitten look livers"; meanwhile, there was the "population of non-bitten-look-livers"

Jesus sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including the "population of bitten look livers" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9) and the population of persons represented by the word "world" who believe in Jesus (John 3:16).

God requires for persons to believe in Jesus in order to be granted eternal life by God (John 3:15, John 3:16).

@justbyfaith, @Grailhunter, and @Renniks, this relation set by Jesus establishes that the word "world" as used by Jesus includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.

You sure do love to dance around the obvious meaning of scripture to support your silly determinism. Why is in important for you to believe Jesus only died for certain people? Does it make you proud? I don't get it.

 

[Grailhunter]

this relation set by Jesus establishes that the word "world" as used by Jesus includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.

Of course you know that you are going to get a lot of disagreement on this...LOL
Quoting Old Testament LOL
Now if you cannot differentiate between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, let me help you.
In the OT, Yahweh did have a select group. But you ain't it!!! LOL The Holy Seed...the Hebrews....the Israelites....the Jews LOL.
All else in the world were subject to gynecide. Kill all that breaths and do not forget the little ones. No treaties or alliances with the Pagans. This is all Mosaic Law. As with fathers selling their daughters into concubinage and fathers collecting wives...all as property.
News flash! Things have changed! We are not in the Old Covenant or under any part of the Mosaic Law. So ya the Jews were the children of God and the Pagans were hated. Still the Jews were held at a distance and did not have a close relationship with God.

Now enter the New Testament...God has a different view of the Pagans and He can reference "the world" as they knew it. God has a divine awareness from subatomic particles to the ends of the cosmos....So when He says the world or the whole world that is the entire planet....but the reality of the whole world for those in the biblical eras were all of the people in their world. Not quite as large as God's awareness of it...they are looking at what they know. A flat earth that included the Middle East and North Africa. The Bible will not be tell us how pretty the penguins were or how high the kangaroos could jump. But the whole world included everyone they knew and everyone God knew.

We are walking a fence between a literary definition of the world and the literal definition as the planet. But we can see by putting all things in motion....statements, conversations, and actions....God has a different attitude and plan for the Pagans...to convert them and let them share in a relationship with God. That task fell on the shoulders of Apostle Paul. In this God so loved the world and gave His Son for everyone. The plan was for the Gospels to go out to the "whole world" the four corners....Christ did not tell the Apostles or His disciples to give the Gospel to the elect. That the Gospels were for the "some" God did not say He loved some of the world .... and He does not say....and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also a few others of special selection.

There is nothing of what you are saying that applies to the New Testament from the literary standpoint or the storyline told in their actions.

 

[Kermos]

Thanks for proving my point. Yes we lie in the world, but are not of the world. We abide in a world that is under at least partial control of evil.

You continue to try to evade the point.

You wrote "We abide in a world", but you eliminated "evil one" for your wrong usage of "world". It's time to correct that to meet the standard of scripture in 1 John 5:19.

The Apostle John wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19), so it is a specific matter of changing "the whole world" to your name, Renniks.

I am saying that you, Renniks abide in the evil one, and that statement is according to your definition of "the whole world" per your "' world' still includes everyone and everything".

Recall the context of my question to you, "do you, Renniks, believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)".

You claim to be a Christian, but you claim that you are part of "the whole world", so that means that your name, Renniks, can replace the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.

No Christian lies in the evil one, because the Apostle John wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13) with that "you" referring to Christians.

As long as you say that you are part of "the whole world", then you claim to be in the place of exclusively Non-Christians which is to lie in the evil one (1 John 5:19).

 

[Kermos]

You sure do love to dance around the obvious meaning of scripture to support your silly determinism. Why is in important for you to believe Jesus only died for certain people? Does it make you proud? I don't get it.

It sounds to me adding to and subtracting from the Word of God is easy for you.

Your claim of the proud work of "accepting Jesus" tells it all (all means your adding to and subtracting from the Word of God).

As established by the Word of God, the use of "world" in John 3:16 does not include everyone and everything.

For me, it is crucial not to alter the Word of God.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

 

[Kermos]

Of course you know that you are going to get a lot of disagreement on this...LOL

The undiscerning dispute against the Word of God.

Quoting Old Testament LOL

It sounds like the Old Testament does not matter to you, that is a large swath of scripture to subtract, Grailhunter.

Jesus quoted from the Old Testament.

Paul quoted from the Old Testament.

Peter quoted from the Old Testament.

I qoute from the Old Testament.

Now if you cannot differentiate between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, let me help you.
In the OT, Yahweh did have a select group. But you ain't it!!!

The Vinedresser grafted me in to Israel as a partaker in the richness of God's salvation (Romans 11:17, the book of Galatians).

It sounds to me like you reject being grafted in to Israel.

LOL The Holy Seed...the Hebrews....the Israelites....the Jews LOL.

Your "lots of laughs" indicate the lack of regard for the Word of God.

All else in the world were subject to gynecide. Kill all that breaths and do not forget the little ones. No treaties or alliances with the Pagans. This is all Mosaic Law. As with fathers selling their daughters into concubinage and fathers collecting wives...all as property.
News flash! Things have changed! We are not in the Old Covenant or under any part of the Mosaic Law. So ya the Jews were the children of God and the Pagans were hated. Still the Jews were held at a distance and did not have a close relationship with God.

I did not in any way, shape, or form indicate that New Covenant believers are under the Mosaic Law. You are confusing my quoting the Old Testament with claiming to being bound to doing the works commanded in the Torah.

Now enter the New Testament...God has a different view of the Pagans and He can reference "the world" as they knew it. God has a divine awareness from subatomic particles to the ends of the cosmos....So when He says the world or the whole world that is the entire planet....but the reality of the whole world for those in the biblical eras were all of the people in their world. Not quite as large as God's awareness of it...they are looking at what they know. A flat earth that included the Middle East and North Africa. The Bible will not be tell us how pretty the penguins were or how high the kangaroos could jump. But the whole world included everyone they knew and everyone God knew.

You just contradicted yourself, Grailhunter, per our conversation about 1 John 5:19 in this thread in which you claim to not be a part of the whole world.

If we use your new definition of "world", then as the Apostle John wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19) it follows that "the whole world" can be replaced by Grailhunter, such that the following would be accurate:

Grailhunter lies in the evil one.

You claim to be a Christian, but now you claim that you are part of "the whole world", so that means that your name, Grailhunter, can replace the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.

No Christian lies in the evil one, because the Apostle John wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13) with that "you" referring to Christians.

People in Biblical times were intelligent, and they understood context, so "world" had different meanings based on context.

We are walking a fence between a literary definition of the world and the literal definition as the planet. But we can see by putting all things in motion....statements, conversations, and actions....God has a different attitude and plan for the Pagans...to convert them and let them share in a relationship with God. That task fell on the shoulders of Apostle Paul. In this God so loved the world and gave His Son for everyone. The plan was for the Gospels to go out to the "whole world" the four corners....Christ did not tell the Apostles or His disciples to give the Gospel to the elect. That the Gospels were for the "some" God did not say He loved some of the world .... and He does not say....and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also a few others of special selection.

There is nothing of what you are saying that applies to the New Testament from the literary standpoint or the storyline told in their actions.

According to the Word of God, the context of "world" recorded by John (John 3:14-16) is that the relation set by Jesus establishes that the word "world" as used by Jesus to include ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus (scripture filled post in this thread).

Your "walking a fence" does not factor into the contextual meaning.

Since you bring up propitiation, that leads back to the subject of 1 John which is the same book that contains 1 John 5:19 mentioned above.

The Apostle John wrote "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

Look, there is "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2, just like the phrase "the whole world" occurs in 1 John 5:19.

"The whole world" in 1 John 5:19 represents people that are Non-Christians which includes persons that will never be Christians.

"The whole world" in 1 John 2:2 represents exclusively people that will become Christians for the First Letter of John (1 John) is a letter to believers in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29); therefore, the context of John's statement is current believers see the "our" in "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins", so as the perspective of the letter is to believers then "not for ours only, but also for [those of] the whole world" refers to person yet to become Christians.

You failed to cite ANY scripture that indicates "world" in John 3:16 means every person everywhere.

I cited scripture, and I quoted scripture with scripture. The Word of God reigns.

 

[Grailhunter]

The undiscerning dispute against the Word of God.



It sounds like the Old Testament does not matter to you, that is a large swath of scripture to subtract, Grailhunter.

Jesus quoted from the Old Testament.

Paul quoted from the Old Testament.

Peter quoted from the Old Testament.

I qoute from the Old Testament.



The Vinedresser grafted me in to Israel as a partaker in the richness of God's salvation (Romans 11:17, the book of Galatians).

It sounds to me like you reject being grafted in to Israel.



Your "lots of laughs" indicate the lack of regard for the Word of God.



I did not in any way, shape, or form indicate that New Covenant believers are under the Mosaic Law. You are confusing my quoting the Old Testament with claiming to being bound to doing the works commanded in the Torah.



You just contradicted yourself, Grailhunter, per our conversation about 1 John 5:19 in this thread in which you claim to not be a part of the whole world.

If we use your new definition of "world", then as the Apostle John wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19) it follows that "the whole world" can be replaced by Grailhunter, such that the following would be accurate:

Grailhunter lies in the evil one.

You claim to be a Christian, but now you claim that you are part of "the whole world", so that means that your name, Grailhunter, can replace the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.

No Christian lies in the evil one, because the Apostle John wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13) with that "you" referring to Christians.

People in Biblical times were intelligent, and they understood context, so "world" had different meanings based on context.



According to the Word of God, the context of "world" recorded by John (John 3:14-16) is that the relation set by Jesus establishes that the word "world" as used by Jesus to include ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus (scripture filled post in this thread).

Your "walking a fence" does not factor into the contextual meaning.

Since you bring up propitiation, that leads back to the subject of 1 John which is the same book that contains 1 John 5:19 mentioned above.

The Apostle John wrote "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

Look, there is "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2, just like the phrase "the whole world" occurs in 1 John 5:19.

"The whole world" in 1 John 5:19 represents people that are Non-Christians which includes persons that will never be Christians.

"The whole world" in 1 John 2:2 represents exclusively people that will become Christians for the First Letter of John (1 John) is a letter to believers in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29); therefore, the context of John's statement is current believers see the "our" in "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins", so as the perspective of the letter is to believers then "not for ours only, but also for [those of] the whole world" refers to person yet to become Christians.

You failed to cite ANY scripture that indicates "world" in John 3:16 means every person everywhere.

I cited scripture, and I quoted scripture with scripture. The Word of God reigns.

Quoted from the Old Testament....Ya they did. Probably the best of the Old Testament.
But I am going to say that they were selective.....
And at times Christ disagreed with the Old Testament Mosaic Law.
Do you think that Christ would go over the Mosaic Law regard selling your daughter as a sex slave or how to manage your multiple wives?
Do you think "kill all the breathes and don't forget the little ones." would come out of Christ's mouth?
Hebrews will tell you about the fault of the Old Covenants. Paul will tell you that you are not under the Law and if look to it for a guide to be justified you are severed from Christ and have fallen from grace.
Yes, I love the Jews, No, I am not a Jew. Combining the Old Testament and the New Testament would make one weird religion and Christ warned about that.
The Old Testament told of the Jewish religion....the Old Testament is not Christian.
If the Old Testament was worth its salt, there would have been no need for Christ.

 

[Renniks]

Recall the context of my question to you, "do you, Renniks, believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)".

And again, you don't get it. We physically live in a world under the sway of Satan. That doesn't mean we have to be controlled by him spiritually.
The whole world lies under the sway, the dominance of the wicked one, but we who are of God have overcome all things including the evil one because we believe what God said about his son Jesus. in order to be out of his control we must exercise our dominion.
John confirms that we and all who choose to come to Christ have that option.

I John 4:4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

The evil one cannot touch us unless we allow him to.

It's shameful how you try and twist scripture to support your pagan determinism.

 

[Kermos]

Quoted from the Old Testament....Ya they did. Probably the best of the Old Testament.
But I am going to say that they were selective.....
And at times Christ disagreed with the Old Testament Mosaic Law.
Do you think that Christ would go over the Mosaic Law regard selling your daughter as a sex slave or how to manage your multiple wives?
Do you think "kill all the breathes and don't forget the little ones." would come out of Christ's mouth?
Hebrews will tell you about the fault of the Old Covenants. Paul will tell you that you are not under the Law and if look to it for a guide to be justified you are severed from Christ and have fallen from grace.
Yes, I love the Jews, No, I am not a Jew. Combining the Old Testament and the New Testament would make one weird religion and Christ warned about that.
The Old Testament told of the Jewish religion....the Old Testament is not Christian.
If the Old Testament was worth its salt, there would have been no need for Christ.

All of your words do not negate that Lord Jesus Christ quoted and referenced the Old Testament.

In fact, here is an instance of Lord Jesus referencing the Old Testament:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up" (John 3:14).

That quote is part of the larger passage (John 3:14-16) in this post.

As this post (just mentioned) illuminates a significance of Jesus' reference to the event recorded in the Old Testament with relation to His continued discourse about who gets saved by God, it is established that JESUS HIMSELF MADE THE REFERENCE TO THE ACCOUNT IN THE OLD TESTAMENT.

The "world" mention by Jesus as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:16) references only believing persons as indicated in this post (just mentioned, and to which the prior post chain of this post goes back).

 

[Kermos]

And again, you don't get it. We physically live in a world under the sway of Satan. That doesn't mean we have to be controlled by him spiritually.
The whole world lies under the sway, the dominance of the wicked one, but we who are of God have overcome all things including the evil one because we believe what God said about his son Jesus. in order to be out of his control we must exercise our dominion.
John confirms that we and all who choose to come to Christ have that option.

I John 4:4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

The evil one cannot touch us unless we allow him to.

It's shameful how you try and twist scripture to support your pagan determinism.

Again, as you were told in this post, the word in 1 John 5:19 is not "sway", the word is "lies" as in "lives in".

Again, you try to evade the point that you include yourself as part of "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19, so you make yourself out to be "of the world" not just "in the world".

The Apostle John wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19), so it is a specific matter of changing "the whole world" to your name, Renniks.

I am saying that you, Renniks lie in the evil one, and that statement is according to your definition of "the whole world" per your "' world' still includes everyone and everything" post.

Recall the context of my question to you, "do you, Renniks, believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)".

You claim to be a Christian, but you claim that you are part of "the whole world", so that means that your name, Renniks, can replace the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.

No Christian lies in the evil one, because the Apostle John wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13) with that "you" referring to Christians.

Therefore, 1 John 4:4 the "You" and "little children" does not apply to you because of your claim that you are part of "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.

Since you, according to you, Renniks lie in the evil one (per 1 John 5:19) then you have not overcome the evil one (per 1 John 2:13) so you are not one of the "little children" (per 1 John 4:4).

As long as you say that you are part of "the whole world", then you claim to be in the place of exclusively Non-Christians which is to lie in the evil one (1 John 5:19).

 

[Grailhunter]

All of your words do not negate that Lord Jesus Christ quoted and referenced the Old Testament.

In fact, here is an instance of Lord Jesus referencing the Old Testament:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up" (John 3:14).

That quote is part of the larger passage (John 3:14-16) in this post.

As this post (just mentioned) illuminates a significance of Jesus' reference to the event recorded in the Old Testament with relation to His continued discourse about who gets saved by God, it is established that JESUS HIMSELF MADE THE REFERENCE TO THE ACCOUNT IN THE OLD TESTAMENT.

The "world" mention by Jesus as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:16) references only believing persons as indicated in this post (just mentioned, and to which the prior post chain of this post goes back).

I have already said they selectively quoted the Old Testament.
All well and good. Freedom of religion.
Find a scripture on how to be a Jew and a Christian.
How to be in the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.
The Bible makes it clear...violate one of the 613 Mosaic Laws and you violate them all.
None of them can be changed or made none affect because they are in affect for the Jews until all things are fulfilled.
You look to them for a religion....you are severed from Christ and have fallen from grace.
Good luck.

 

[Renniks]

Again, as you were told in this post, the word in 1 John 5:19 is not "sway", the word is "lies" as in "lives in".

Again, you try to evade the point that you include yourself as part of "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19, so you make yourself out to be "of the world" not just "in the world".

The Apostle John wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19), so it is a specific matter of changing "the whole world" to your name, Renniks.

I am saying that you, Renniks lie in the evil one, and that statement is according to your definition of "the whole world" per your "' world' still includes everyone and everything" post.

Recall the context of my question to you, "do you, Renniks, believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)".

You claim to be a Christian, but you claim that you are part of "the whole world", so that means that your name, Renniks, can replace the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.

No Christian lies in the evil one, because the Apostle John wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13) with that "you" referring to Christians.

Therefore, 1 John 4:4 the "You" and "little children" does not apply to you because of your claim that you are part of "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.

Since you, according to you, Renniks lie in the evil one (per 1 John 5:19) then you have not overcome the evil one (per 1 John 2:13) so you are not one of the "little children" (per 1 John 4:4).

As long as you say that you are part of "the whole world", then you claim to be in the place of exclusively Non-Christians which is to lie in the evil one (1 John 5:19).

Repeating the same post over and over again isn't having a conversation. Good bye!

 

[Kermos]

I have already said they selectively quoted the Old Testament.
All well and good. Freedom of religion.
Find a scripture on how to be a Jew and a Christian.
How to be in the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.
The Bible makes it clear...violate one of the 613 Mosaic Laws and you violate them all.
None of them can be changed or made none affect because they are in affect for the Jews until all things are fulfilled.
You look to them for a religion....you are severed from Christ and have fallen from grace.
Good luck.

You appear to have a very short memory, so, again, as previously wrote to you in this post here, I did not in any way, shape, or form indicate that New Covenant believers are under the works of the Mosaic Law for salvation.

You are confusing Jesus quoting the Old Testament (John 3:14) against your changing His words to somewhow be about following the Law.

Jesus references the Old Testament in the very passage, John 3:14-16, about which we are corresponding regarding the use of the word "world", so the relevance of the Old Testament herein is indisputable.

Jesus says he will lose none (John 6:39), but you say that Jesus loses some people, and I draw this concluion based on your inclusion of everyone everywhere in the "world" (as recorded in John 3:16) because scripturally not everyone everywhere in the world believes in Jesus before they die.

Since you say that the word "world" as occurs in John 3:14-16 includes everyone everywhere, then by extension you say that Jesus loses some people to hell.

You are very wrong because Jesus saves all of his own (John 10:27-29).

The "world" mentioned by Jesus as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:16) references only believing persons as indicated in this post .

 

[Kermos]

Repeating the same post over and over again isn't having a conversation. Good bye!

I proclaim the Truth to you (John 14:6), but you keep rejecting the Truth.

Jesus says he will lose none (John 6:39), but you say that Jesus loses some people, and I draw this concluion based on your inclusion of everyone everywhere in the "world" (as recorded in John 3:16) because scripturally not everyone everywhere in the world believes in Jesus before they die.

Since you say that the word "world" as occurs in John 3:14-16 includes everyone everywhere, then by extension you say that Jesus loses some people to hell.

You are very wrong because Jesus saves all of his own (John 10:27-29).

The "world" mentioned by Jesus as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:16) references only believing persons as indicated in this post .

Also, I am saying that you, according to your persistent claim of you being included in "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19, that you Renniks lie in the evil one, and that statement is according to your definition of "the whole world" per your "' world' still includes everyone and everything" post.

Recall the context of my question to you, "do you, Renniks, believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)".

You claim to be a Christian, but you claim that you are part of "the whole world", so that means that your name, Renniks, can replace the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19. Thus you place yourself as lying in the evil one.

No Christian lies in the evil one, because the Apostle John wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13) with that "you" referring to Christians.

Since you, according to you, Renniks lie in the evil one (per 1 John 5:19) then you have not overcome the evil one (per 1 John 2:13).

As long as you say that you are part of "the whole world", then you claim to be in the place of exclusively Non-Christians which is to lie in the evil one (1 John 5:19).

May Jesus open your eyes to His glorious Truth!

 

[Grailhunter]

I have already said they selectively quoted the Old Testament.
All well and good. Freedom of religion.
Find a scripture on how to be a Jew and a Christian.
How to be in the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.
The Bible makes it clear...violate one of the 613 Mosaic Laws and you violate them all.
None of them can be changed or made none affect because they are in affect for the Jews until all things are fulfilled.
You look to them for a religion....you are severed from Christ and have fallen from grace.
Good luck.

LOL My memory is fine, let me refresh your memory...
The whole world and all the people that are in it, is what God is talking about when He said...God so loved the world....and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

So as long as you got that straight in your mind, then we are good.

Now if you want to get into Old Testament quotes in the New Testament...we can move on to that topic.

 

[Kermos]

LOL My memory is fine, let me refresh your memory...
The whole world and all the people that are in it, is what God is talking about when He said...God so loved the world....and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

So as long as you got that straight in your mind, then we are good.

Now if you want to get into Old Testament quotes in the New Testament...we can move on to that topic.

We are already on the topic of Old Testament references in the New Testament because, as this post that starts this chain of posts shows (at the top of this very page), Jesus says more than just "God so loved the world" (John 3:16) in the passage. Here is the expanded words of Christ which includes the reference to the Old Testament that you so self-willedly subtract:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14-16).

Therefore, Lord Jesus' words (see this post, just mentined, for the details) sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including the "population of bitten look livers" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9) and the population of persons exclusively represented by the word "world" who believe in Jesus (John 3:16).

This means that your interpretation of "world" in "God so loved the world" as being "all the people that are in it" is deathly wrong.

By the way, Grailhunter, the Apostle John wrote "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2), so you included reference to this passage of the Apostle John as part of your statement "The whole world and all the people that are in it, is what God is talking about" with respect to the word "world".

Look, there is "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2, just like the phrase "the whole world" occurs in 1 John 5:19.

"The whole world" in 1 John 5:19 represents people that are Non-Christians persons that will never be Christians that population includes persons in the evil one when they die.

This is proof that "the whole world" does not of necessity include "all the people that are in it" (your words in your above quoted post).

But, based on your definition of "the whole world" being "all the people that are in it", then that means that your name, Grailhunter, can replace the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.

The Apostle John wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19), and here is the replacement "Grailhunter lies in the evil one".

You claim to be a Christian, but no Christian lies in the evil one because the Apostle John wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13) with that "you" referring exclusively to Christians.

"The whole world" in 1 John 2:2 represents exclusively people that will become Christians for the First Letter of John (1 John) is a letter to believers in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29); therefore, the context of John's statement is current believers (1) see the "our" in "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins" and (2) see that the perspective of the letter is of believers reading the letter so then this "the whole world" in "not for ours only, but also for the whole world" refers exclusively to persons yet to become believers in Jesus.

This means that your interpretation of "world" in "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" as being "all the people that are in it" is deathly wrong.

Jesus says He will lose none (John 6:39), but you convey that Jesus loses some people of the "world" since you say he died for "all the people that are in it". Scripturally, everyone everywhere in the world will not believes in Jesus before they die.

Since you say that the word "world" as occurs in John 3:14-16 includes everyone everywhere, then by extension you say that Jesus loses some people to hell.

You call Jesus a liar when He says He will lose none!

The Truth is that Jesus saves all of His own (John 10:27-29).

This means that your interpretation of "world" in John 3:14-16 and 1 John 2:2 as being "all the people that are in it" is deathly wrong.

You failed to cite any scripture that indicates "world" in "God so loved the world" (John 3:16) means "all the people that are in it".

In Truth (John 14:6), Lord Jesus pronounces that the "world" in "God so loved the world" (John 3:16) means only people who believe in Jesus.

 

[Grailhunter]

We are already on the topic of Old Testament references in the New Testament because, as this post that starts this chain of posts shows (at the top of this very page), Jesus says more than just "God so loved the world" (John 3:16) in the passage. Here is the expanded words of Christ which includes the reference to the Old Testament that you so self-willedly subtract:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14-16).

Therefore, Lord Jesus' words (see this post, just mentined, for the details) sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including the "population of bitten look livers" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9) and the population of persons exclusively represented by the word "world" who believe in Jesus (John 3:16).

This means that your interpretation of "world" in "God so loved the world" as being "all the people that are in it" is deathly wrong.

By the way, Grailhunter, the Apostle John wrote "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2), so you included reference to this passage of the Apostle John as part of your statement "The whole world and all the people that are in it, is what God is talking about" with respect to the word "world".

Look, there is "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2, just like the phrase "the whole world" occurs in 1 John 5:19.

"The whole world" in 1 John 5:19 represents people that are Non-Christians persons that will never be Christians that population includes persons in the evil one when they die.

This is proof that "the whole world" does not of necessity include "all the people that are in it" (your words in your above quoted post).

But, based on your definition of "the whole world" being "all the people that are in it", then that means that your name, Grailhunter, can replace the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.

The Apostle John wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19), and here is the replacement "Grailhunter lies in the evil one".

You claim to be a Christian, but no Christian lies in the evil one because the Apostle John wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13) with that "you" referring exclusively to Christians.

"The whole world" in 1 John 2:2 represents exclusively people that will become Christians for the First Letter of John (1 John) is a letter to believers in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29); therefore, the context of John's statement is current believers (1) see the "our" in "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins" and (2) see that the perspective of the letter is of believers reading the letter so then this "the whole world" in "not for ours only, but also for the whole world" refers exclusively to persons yet to become believers in Jesus.

This means that your interpretation of "world" in "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" as being "all the people that are in it" is deathly wrong.

Jesus says He will lose none (John 6:39), but you convey that Jesus loses some people of the "world" since you say he died for "all the people that are in it". Scripturally, everyone everywhere in the world will not believes in Jesus before they die.

Since you say that the word "world" as occurs in John 3:14-16 includes everyone everywhere, then by extension you say that Jesus loses some people to hell.

You call Jesus a liar when He says He will lose none!

The Truth is that Jesus saves all of His own (John 10:27-29).

This means that your interpretation of "world" in John 3:14-16 and 1 John 2:2 as being "all the people that are in it" is deathly wrong.

You failed to cite any scripture that indicates "world" in John 3:16 means every person everywhere.

I cited scripture, and I quoted scripture with scripture. The Word of God reigns.

I get the whole predestination thing. And God has the power for sure....He could have made the whole world a puppet show, I think He would have had enough imagination to make it more entertaining. He could have but He not a monster or a devil.
Christ said I would think in a moment of exasperation that you had to hate your mother and father your wife etc to be a disciple of his. If you were going to take weird and cruel stance on scriptures, why not that one. At least that one would be fun to watch you do. The internet is full of warnings about the satanic teachings of John Calvin. Satan has fooled a some, but not all.

If you are going to quote the Old Testament why not quote how to sell your daughter as a sex slave or the bride price you paid to own your wives? Or how bout slaves...God's Word reigns! How many slaves ya got? Or on of the Ten Commmandments....no engraved images....you do know you are on some sort of digital devise?

 

[Kermos]

I get the whole predestination thing. And God has the power for sure....He could have made the whole world a puppet show, I think He would have had enough imagination to make it more entertaining. He could have but He not a monster or a devil.
Christ said I would think in a moment of exasperation that you had to hate your mother and father your wife etc to be a disciple of his. If you were going to take weird and cruel stance on scriptures, why not that one. At least that one would be fun to watch you do. The internet is full of warnings about the satanic teachings of John Calvin. Satan has fooled a some, but not all.

If you are going to quote the Old Testament why not quote how to sell your daughter as a sex slave or the bride price you paid to own your wives? Or how bout slaves...God's Word reigns! How many slaves ya got? Or on of the Ten Commmandments....no engraved images....you do know you are on some sort of digital devise?

Again, you attempt to subtract the FACT that Lord Jesus referenced the Old Testament when He says "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:14-16).

You insult the Potter, that is the One True God, with your use of "puppet show". That is you rebelling against the Potter just like Paul wrote of with "Why did you make me like this" (Romans 9:20-23).

You add "moment of exasperation" to Christ's words about "hate father and mother" of which your words do not appear.

I remind you that by your definition of the word "world" as occurs in John 3:14-16 to include "all the people that are in it" (link to your post), then by extension you say that Jesus loses some people to hell. This means that you attempt to subtract this Word of God "of all that He has given Me I lose nothing" (John 6:39).

Man, you appear to have great disdain for the Word of God.

I am using the word predestination in terms of salvation (Ephesians 1:5), so I use predestination in the context of the Sovereignty of God which is God's complete control of the salvation of man while man is entirely impotent in the matter of salvation (Ephesians 1:3-4, Ephesians 2:8-10)..

No. I do not agree with you about you understanding predestination. I assert that what Jesus says applies to you which is "though hearing, they do not hear or understand" (Matthew 13:13).

I say this because of your interpretation of the word "world" in "God so loved the world" (John 3:16) to mean "all the people that are in it" (link to your post).

God saves persons whom God loves, that is God's chosen persons (John 15:16, John 15:19), so this brings us back to the word "world" as used by Jesus in "God so loved the world" (John 3:16).

As this post (in this thread) conclusively demonstrates in scripture about the word "world", so it follows, when Lord Jesus says "God so loved the world" (John 3:16), then specifically He is saying God loves the ones who will believe in Jesus.

Predestined means that before a person comes into being God has destined the person unto salvation in Christ (Ephesians 1:3-5).

You promote a sovereignty of man that, by way of a work of an unsupported by scripture "choice" of man, attempts to negate the Sovereignty of God.

This means that you must subtract from and add to scripture to achieve your illegitimate sovereignty of man.

Scripture is rich with the Sovereignty of God. The Sovereignty of God is Christian doctrine!

 

[Grailhunter]

Again, you attempt to subtract the FACT that Lord Jesus referenced the Old Testament when He says "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:14-16).

How many times I got to say, I know they selectively referenced the Old Testament....in these particular case are you prepared to explain the connection...similarities between the serpent and Christ. They lifted banners and all sort of things...there ya go.

You insult the Potter, that is the One True God, with your use of "puppet show". That is you rebelling against the Potter just like Paul wrote of with "Why did you make me like this" (Romans 9:20-23).

I don't have to worry about you insinuating that God is monster. We will see what Christ thinks about it on Judgment Day.

You add "moment of exasperation" to Christ's words about "hate father and mother" of which your words do not appear.

I am good with your objection to that, now you explain it.

I remind you that by your definition of the word "world" as occurs in John 3:14-16 to include "all the people that are in it" (link to your post), then by extension you say that Jesus loses some people to hell. This means that you attempt to subtract this Word of God "of all that He has given Me I lose nothing" (John 6:39).

Find were the scriptures says, God love part of the world.

Man, you appear to have great disdain for the Word of God.

No I have a distain for people that twist God's Word.

I am using the word predestination in terms of salvation (Ephesians 1:5), so I use predestination in the context of the Sovereignty of God which is God's complete control of the salvation of man while man is entirely impotent in the matter of salvation (Ephesians 1:3-4, Ephesians 2:8-10)..

No. I do not agree with you about you understanding predestination. I assert that what Jesus says applies to you which is "though hearing, they do not hear or understand" (Matthew 13:13).

I say this because of your interpretation of the word "world" in "God so loved the world" (John 3:16) to mean "all the people that are in it" (link to your post).

Disagree.

God saves persons whom God loves, that is God's chosen persons (John 15:16, John 15:19), so this brings us back to the word "world" as used by Jesus in "God so loved the world" (John 3:16).

Disagree Yeshua saves those that chose Him. And the world is the world, until stipulated differently.

Predestined means that before a person comes into being God has destined the person unto salvation in Christ (Ephesians 1:3-5).

All are chosen that hear, to have the opportunity to believe and be saved or choose not to.

You promote a sovereignty of man that, by way of a work of an unsupported by scripture "choice" of man, attempts to negate the Sovereignty of God.

This means that you must subtract from and add to scripture to achieve your illegitimate sovereignty of man.

Scripture is rich with the Sovereignty of God. The Sovereignty of God is Christian doctrine!

Your interpretation of the scriptures are blasphemous to God in the worst way. Self edifying and turns reality into a horror.