Calvinism vs. Arminianism

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Kermos

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Our gracious Benefactor produces
  1. divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says

    "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19)

    AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus' words for he wrote to the Ephesians "Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love" (Ephesians 1:3-4)

    SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God

  2. beneficiaries' faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek πίστις pistis) and believe (Greek πιστεύω pisteuó))
    "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)

    AND Paul is in accord with Jesus' words for he wrote to the Ephesians "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:8-10)

    SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is by/of/through God

  3. beneficiaries' fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
    "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21)

    AND Paul is in accord with Jesus' words for he wrote to the Philippians "being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God" (Philippians 1:11)

    SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is by/of/through God

  4. beneficiaries' birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says
    "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:5-8)

    AND Peter is in accord with Jesus' words for he wrote to persons residing as aliens "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3)

    SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is by/of/through God

  5. beneficiaries' repent by God's working, for the Christ of us Christians says
    "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes" (Matthew 11:25)

    AND the apostles and elders glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life" (Acts 11:18)

    SO, clearly, Jesus' words in Matthew 11:25 state that God causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward)

There is nothing remaining that man can do for salvation. It is all God for God's glory!
 

Kermos

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How many times I got to say, I know they selectively referenced the Old Testament....in these particular case are you prepared to explain the connection...similarities between the serpent and Christ. They lifted banners and all sort of things...there ya go.

Again, you have no legitimately scriptural response in support of your thought of "world" as "all the people that are in it" (link to your post) because your thoughts contradict the Word of God indicating that the "world" in context is only the persons who will be believing in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 3:14-16, John 6:29) (post with detail about "world" in John 3:16 in this thread), so you try to obscure scripture and subtract from scripture and add to scripture in your natural man attempt to grasp onto the sin which is your unscriptural claimed ability to choose Jesus which is tied to your natural man unscriptural claim about "world".

Jesus was very specific about "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:14-16).

I don't have to worry about you insinuating that God is monster. We will see what Christ thinks about it on Judgment Day.

You call God a monster, and God knows it came from you.

I call God the loving Potter, and God knows that comes from the Holy Spirit.

You insult the Potter, that is the One True God, with your use of "monster". That is you rebelling against the Potter just like Paul wrote of with "Why did you make me like this" (Romans 9:20-23).

I am good with your objection to that, now you explain it.

If you are serious, and it appears to me that you are, then I'm glad to hear that you admitted to adding that to scripture. That means you might be acknowledging your own unrighteousness.

Find were the scriptures says, God love part of the world.

In context, when Jesus says "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:14-16), the Lord indicates that the "world" in context is only the persons who will be believing in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 3:14-16, John 6:29).

That's the first order, and it establishes the basis for the word "world" in the passage.

The second order is to examine the history of "the serpent in the wilderness" that Jesus mentions (see John 3:14):

Then YHWH said to Moses, "Make a fiery [serpent], and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. (Numbers 21:8-9)

The third order is to listen to the Master.

Jesus sets "the serpent in the wilderness" "lifted up" in relation to "the Son of Man" "lifted up" (all in John 3:14).

Jesus then states "so that every believing will in" Jesus "have eternal life" (John 3:15), but He intensifies this statement by repeating it right away.

Jesus continues with "for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son" (John 3:16), and here is where Jesus mentions "world".

Jesus follows up with intensifying his prior declaration (John 3:15) with "that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

The fourth order is to acknowledge the Master's words.

Jesus mentioned "the serpent in the wilderness", so by this He brings up the account of the bronze serpent (John 3:16 includes Numbers 21:8-9).

The relation that Jesus set between the bronze serpent lifted up and Himself lifted up bears significance upon the population of persons that Jesus establishes for the word "world" in John 3:16.

For the next four paragraphs, we see the Word of God speaking to Moses (Numbers 21:8) in relation to the Word of God speaking to Nicodemus (John 3:16).

Notice how "everyone who is bitten" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "world" (John 3:16).

Notice how "when he" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "that every" (John 3:16, note that the Greek word pas [Strongs 3956] translates accurately as "every" not so much as the unfettered promiscuous "whosoever").

Notice how "look" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "believing" (John 3:16).

Notice how "live" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "eternal life" (John 3:16).

God told Moses that a person bitten by one of the serpents "will live" when the person looks at "the serpent in the wilderness".

Based on God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" (Numbers 21:8) and the results of the bronze serpent that Moses set on the standard (Numbers 21:9), the population of persons that certainly were affected by God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" in order to live were ONLY each bitten person that looked at "the serpent in the wilderness".

In other words, the population of persons associated with living by looking at "the serpent in the wilderness" was restricted to ONLY the bitten persons that looked at the bronze serpent. For simplicity, I'll call this the "population of bitten look livers".

Furthermore, there is a different population of persons. This population of persons are not in the "population of bitten look livers". For example, this population of persons could include bitten persons that DID NOT LOOK AT "the serpent in the wilderness". This population of persons I'll call the "population of non-bitten-look-livers".

Therefore, there are separate populations of persons identified in Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:14-16). There was the "population of bitten look livers"; meanwhile, there was the "population of non-bitten-look-livers"

Jesus sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including the "population of bitten look livers" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9) and the population of persons represented by the word "world" who believe in Jesus (John 3:16).

God requires for persons to believe in Jesus in order to be granted eternal life by God (John 3:15, John 3:16).

This relation set by Jesus establishes that the word "world" as used by Jesus includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.
No I have a distain for people that twist God's Word.

Then examine yourself, you twist the word "world" in John 3:14-16.

You insult the Potter by calling the Potter a monster.

You try to eliminate the relevance of the Old Testament where the Word of God references the Old Testament with "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness" which starts off the passage (John 3:14-16).

Disagree.

You do not understand, so you disagree with that which you do not understand.

Disagree Yeshua saves those that chose Him. And the world is the world, until stipulated differently.

You are trying ot cause Yeshua to contradict Yeshua who says "You did not choose Me" (John 15:16).

Your "the world is the world" conveys your stance of "all the people that are in it" (link to your post). If we use your definition of "world", then as the Apostle John wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19) it follows that "the whole world" can be replaced by Grailhunter, such that the following would be accurate:

Grailhunter lies in the evil one.

You claim to be a Christian, but now you claim that you are part of "the whole world" per 1 John 5:19, and no Christian lies in the evil one because the Apostle John wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13) with that "you" referring to Christians.

All are chosen that hear, to have the opportunity to believe and be saved or choose not to.

It have it all turned backwards. You put the "hear" of a creature that has not come into being at the time of the foundation of the world in front of the "chosen" of God which occurs before the foundation of the world! That is flat out BACKWARDS.

You really turn the scripture "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4) backwards.

See the first post on this page for the Word of God's definition of believing in Jesus. No one can choose Yeshua because Yeshua says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16).

Your interpretation of the scriptures are blasphemous to God in the worst way. Self edifying and turns reality into a horror.

View attachment 14057

I do not interpret scripture for this is up to the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:20-21.

Now, look at your twisting of scripture where you flip Ephesians 1:4 backwards (just a few paragraphs up from here).

You lie about scripture to concoct a thing about freewill of man to cause man's own salvation, so you try to steal God's glory in the salvation of man.
 

Grailhunter

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Again, you have no legitimately scriptural response in support of your thought of "world" as "all the people that are in it" (link to your post) because your thoughts contradict the Word of God indicating that the "world" in context is only the persons who will be believing in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 3:14-16, John 6:29) (post with detail about "world" in John 3:16 in this thread), so you try to obscure scripture and subtract from scripture and add to scripture in your natural man attempt to grasp onto the sin which is your unscriptural claimed ability to choose Jesus which is tied to your natural man unscriptural claim about "world".

Jesus was very specific about "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:14-16).



You call God a monster, and God knows it came from you.

I call God the loving Potter, and God knows that comes from the Holy Spirit.

You insult the Potter, that is the One True God, with your use of "monster". That is you rebelling against the Potter just like Paul wrote of with "Why did you make me like this" (Romans 9:20-23).



If you are serious, and it appears to me that you are, then I'm glad to hear that you admitted to adding that to scripture. That means you might be acknowledging your own unrighteousness.



In context, when Jesus says "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:14-16), the Lord indicates that the "world" in context is only the persons who will be believing in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 3:14-16, John 6:29).

That's the first order, and it establishes the basis for the word "world" in the passage.

The second order is to examine the history of "the serpent in the wilderness" that Jesus mentions (see John 3:14):

Then YHWH said to Moses, "Make a fiery [serpent], and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. (Numbers 21:8-9)

The third order is to listen to the Master.

Jesus sets "the serpent in the wilderness" "lifted up" in relation to "the Son of Man" "lifted up" (all in John 3:14).

Jesus then states "so that every believing will in" Jesus "have eternal life" (John 3:15), but He intensifies this statement by repeating it right away.

Jesus continues with "for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son" (John 3:16), and here is where Jesus mentions "world".

Jesus follows up with intensifying his prior declaration (John 3:15) with "that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

The fourth order is to acknowledge the Master's words.

Jesus mentioned "the serpent in the wilderness", so by this He brings up the account of the bronze serpent (John 3:16 includes Numbers 21:8-9).

The relation that Jesus set between the bronze serpent lifted up and Himself lifted up bears significance upon the population of persons that Jesus establishes for the word "world" in John 3:16.

For the next four paragraphs, we see the Word of God speaking to Moses (Numbers 21:8) in relation to the Word of God speaking to Nicodemus (John 3:16).

Notice how "everyone who is bitten" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "world" (John 3:16).

Notice how "when he" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "that every" (John 3:16, note that the Greek word pas [Strongs 3956] translates accurately as "every" not so much as the unfettered promiscuous "whosoever").

Notice how "look" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "believing" (John 3:16).

Notice how "live" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "eternal life" (John 3:16).

God told Moses that a person bitten by one of the serpents "will live" when the person looks at "the serpent in the wilderness".

Based on God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" (Numbers 21:8) and the results of the bronze serpent that Moses set on the standard (Numbers 21:9), the population of persons that certainly were affected by God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" in order to live were ONLY each bitten person that looked at "the serpent in the wilderness".

In other words, the population of persons associated with living by looking at "the serpent in the wilderness" was restricted to ONLY the bitten persons that looked at the bronze serpent. For simplicity, I'll call this the "population of bitten look livers".

Furthermore, there is a different population of persons. This population of persons are not in the "population of bitten look livers". For example, this population of persons could include bitten persons that DID NOT LOOK AT "the serpent in the wilderness". This population of persons I'll call the "population of non-bitten-look-livers".

Therefore, there are separate populations of persons identified in Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:14-16). There was the "population of bitten look livers"; meanwhile, there was the "population of non-bitten-look-livers"

Jesus sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including the "population of bitten look livers" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9) and the population of persons represented by the word "world" who believe in Jesus (John 3:16).

God requires for persons to believe in Jesus in order to be granted eternal life by God (John 3:15, John 3:16).

This relation set by Jesus establishes that the word "world" as used by Jesus includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.


Then examine yourself, you twist the word "world" in John 3:14-16.

You insult the Potter by calling the Potter a monster.

You try to eliminate the relevance of the Old Testament where the Word of God references the Old Testament with "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness" which starts off the passage (John 3:14-16).



You do not understand, so you disagree with that which you do not understand.



You are trying ot cause Yeshua to contradict Yeshua who says "You did not choose Me" (John 15:16).

Your "the world is the world" conveys your stance of "all the people that are in it" (link to your post). If we use your definition of "world", then as the Apostle John wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19) it follows that "the whole world" can be replaced by Grailhunter, such that the following would be accurate:

Grailhunter lies in the evil one.

You claim to be a Christian, but now you claim that you are part of "the whole world" per 1 John 5:19, and no Christian lies in the evil one because the Apostle John wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13) with that "you" referring to Christians.



It have it all turned backwards. You put the "hear" of a creature that has not come into being at the time of the foundation of the world in front of the "chosen" of God which occurs before the foundation of the world! That is flat out BACKWARDS.

You really turn the scripture "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4) backwards.

See the first post on this page for the Word of God's definition of believing in Jesus. No one can choose Yeshua because Yeshua says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16).



I do not interpret scripture for this is up to the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:20-21.

Now, look at your twisting of scripture where you flip Ephesians 1:4 backwards (just a few paragraphs up from here).

You lie about scripture to concoct a thing about freewill of man to cause man's own salvation, so you try to steal God's glory in the salvation of man.

This is simple "God so loved the world...
Then....and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
I have several times.... "the whole world"
It is you that cannot produce a scripture saying....God so loved part of the world or but also for those that are the elect.
Christ says He choose us....not some of us.
You have nothing....big fat zero!

It is to us to seek...."Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. It is not a trap door.

We have to find it....“For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it."

We choose to obey....and work out our own salvation....So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
 

Kermos

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This is simple "God so loved the world...
Then....and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
I have several times.... "the whole world"
It is you that cannot produce a scripture saying....God so loved part of the world or but also for those that are the elect.
Christ says He choose us....not some of us.
You have nothing....big fat zero!

It is to us to seek...."Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. It is not a trap door.

We have to find it....??For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it."

We choose to obey....and work out our own salvation....So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Taking a short phrase or clause of scripture out of context is a self-willed person's (2 Peter 2:9-10) destruction, such as you have done.

Jesus says more than just "God so loved the world" (John 3:16) in the passage. Here is the expanded words of Christ which includes the reference to the Old Testament that you so self-willedly subtract:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14-16).

Therefore, Lord Jesus' words sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including the "population of bitten look livers" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9) and the population of persons exclusively represented by the word "world" who believe in Jesus (John 3:16) (see this post for the details).

YOU SUBTRACT TO THE CONTEXT, so this means that your interpretation of "world" in "God so loved the world" as being "all the people that are in it" (link to your post) is deathly wrong.

By the way, Grailhunter, the Apostle John wrote "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2), so you included reference to this passage of the Apostle John as part of your statement "The whole world and all the people that are in it, is what God is talking about" (link to your post) with respect to the word "world".

Look, there is "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2, just like the phrase "the whole world" occurs in 1 John 5:19.

"The whole world" in 1 John 5:19 represents people that are Non-Christians persons that will never be Christians that population includes persons in the evil one when they die.

This is proof that "the whole world" does not of necessity include "all the people that are in it" (link to your post).

But, based on your definition of "the whole world" being "all the people that are in it" (link to your post), then that means that your name, Grailhunter, can replace the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.

The Apostle John wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19), and here is the replacement "Grailhunter lies in the evil one".

You claim to be a Christian, but no Christian lies in the evil one because the Apostle John wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13) with that "you" referring exclusively to Christians.

YOU ADD TO THE CONTEXT yourself as lying in the evil one since you say the world is "all the people that are in it" (link to your post).

"The whole world" in 1 John 2:2 represents exclusively people that will become Christians for the First Letter of John (1 John) is a letter to believers in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29); therefore, the context of John's statement is current believers (1) see the "our" in "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins" and (2) see that the perspective of the letter is of believers reading the letter so then this "the whole world" in "not for ours only, but also for the whole world" refers exclusively to persons yet to become believers in Jesus.

YOU ADD TO THE CONTEXT, so this means that your interpretation of "world" in "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" as being "all the people that are in it" (link to your post) is deathly wrong.

Jesus says He will lose none (John 6:39), but you convey that Jesus loses some people of the "world" since you say He died for "all the people that are in it" (link to your post). Scripturally, the "world" as "all the people" (link to your post) will not believe in Jesus before they die.

Since you say that the word "world" as occurs in John 3:14-16 includes "all the people that are in it" (link to your post), then by extension you say that Jesus loses some people to hell.

YOU ADD TO THE CONTEXT, so you call Jesus a liar when He says He will lose none!

The Truth is that Jesus saves all of His own (John 10:27-29).

This means that your interpretation of "world" in John 3:14-16 and 1 John 2:2 as being "all the people that are in it" (link to your post) is deathly wrong.

You failed to cite any scripture that indicates "world" in "God so loved the world" (John 3:16) means "all the people that are in it" (link to your post).

In Truth (John 14:6), Lord Jesus pronounces that the "world" in "God so loved the world" (John 3:16) means only people who believe in Jesus.

It appears that you failed to notice that you quoted "for it is God who is at work in you" thus belief/faith, repentence, born again, choice, and good works/fruit, it is exclusively all by God, none by man, all by God just as this post shows Scripturally.
 

Kermos

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While discussing predestination, @Grailhunter, you wrote "All are chosen that hear, to have the opportunity to believe and be saved or choose not to" (link to your post in this thread).

Paul wrote "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will" (Ephesians 1:4-5)

"CHOSE" COMPARED BETWEEN YOU AND PAUL

You used "chose" with reference to man as the source, and you referenced God as the recipient of man's choosing, that is, God being "chose" by man.

Paul used "chose" with reference to God as the source, not man, but God, and Paul referenced man as the recipient of God's choosing, that is, man being "chose" by God.

"Chose" Conclusion: you apply the source of "chose" to the wrong being, in effect you claim the opposite of Paul. The ability to choose God is non-existent for persons for no scripture states man can choose God. In fact, God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

"PREDESTINED" COMPARED BETWEEN YOU AND PAUL

You use "predestined" such that the "hear" of a person dictates the "chose" working of God.

Paul used "predestined" such that the "chose" by God person is destined before the person comes into being as a son "before the foundation of the world", so God dictates the "chose" persons. The working of God is choosing persons unto salvation.

"Predestined" Conclusion: you put the "hear" of a creature that has not come into being at the time of the foundation of the world in front of the "chose" working of God which occurs "before the foundation of the world"! That is flat out backwards. In effect, you claim the opposite of Paul.

BELIEF/FAITH COMPARED BETWEEN YOU AND PAUL

You indicate persons manipulate belief/faith such that a person can cause oneself to believe in Jesus.

Paul indicates persons unavoidably receive belief/faith by the power of God when he wrote "that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love He predestined us to adoption as sons" with this established by God "before the foundation of the world". In fact, Paul states that God gives belief/faith and that this belief/faith is not by man so no choice by man and that we believers are God's work (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Belief/Faith Conclusion: you reject that God puts righteous belief/faith inside of persons of which the belief/faith is absolutely guaranteed long ago by God for God's chosen persons; furthermore, Paul is in accord with Jesus' words establishing that God places the complete finished package of belief/faith in a person when the Word says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

"HEAR/ING" COMPARED BETWEEN YOU AND PAUL

In effect, you write that every person everywhere is chosen to hear for a person to make a choice for Christ or against Christ.

Paul wrote "faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" (Romans 10:17).

Hear/ing Conclusion: you write that all people arc chosen to hear even though there are unreached people groups. You write in such a way that the "hear" event is caused by a person, and the "hear" event causes the "chosen" event to occur; moreover, your writing is in direct opposition to Paul's writing that a person "hearing" is done "by the word of Christ", not by some kind of power dredged up by the person, but the person hearing is by the power of God (Mark 7:32-35, 1 Corinthians 1:24).

THE ONE IN CONTROL OF SALVATION COMPARED BETWEEN YOU AND PAUL

You indicate man is exclusively in control of salvation, instead of God, since you attribute the "hear" of a person as part and parcel of the person's decision to choose Jesus unto salvation. You make it out that a person causes oneself to "hear".

Paul indicates God is exclusively in control of man's salvation, instead of man, since Paul attributes salvation to "the kind intention of His will". Paul makes it out that God establishes specific persons unto salvation "before the foundation of the world".

The One in Control of Salvation Conclusion: you imagine man controlling salvation in direct opposition to scripture. No scripture indicates man controls salvation in any way, shape, or form. Scripture clearly indicates God is exclusively in control of salvation of man.

WRAPPING UP THIS POST ABOUT PREDESTINATION

You contradict Paul again and again, Grailhunter, as expressly detailed above.

You have added to scripture, and you have subtracted from scripture, so you do not believe that which the unadulterated scripture reveals. The scripture reveals Who God says God is.

As I wrote previously, that which Jesus says applies to you which is "though hearing, they do not hear or understand" (Matthew 13:13).

Biblically speaking, your writing indicates that you do not understand what predestined means.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
 
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Grailhunter

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While discussing predestination, @Grailhunter, you wrote "All are chosen that hear, to have the opportunity to believe and be saved or choose not to" (link to your post in this thread).

Paul wrote "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will" (Ephesians 1:4-5)

"CHOSE" COMPARED BETWEEN YOU AND PAUL

You used "chose" with reference to man as the source, and you referenced God as the recipient of man's choosing, that is, God being "chose" by man.

Paul used "chose" with reference to God as the source, not man, but God, and Paul referenced man as the recipient of God's choosing, that is, man being "chose" by God.

"Chose" Conclusion: you apply the source of "chose" to the wrong being, in effect you claim the opposite of Paul. The ability to choose God is non-existent for persons for no scripture states man can choose God. In fact, God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

"PREDESTINED" COMPARED BETWEEN YOU AND PAUL

You use "predestined" such that the "hear" of a person dictates the "chose" working of God.

Paul used "predestined" such that the "chose" by God person is destined before the person comes into being as a son "before the foundation of the world", so God dictates the "chose" persons. The working of God is choosing persons unto salvation.

"Predestined" Conclusion: you put the "hear" of a creature that has not come into being at the time of the foundation of the world in front of the "chose" working of God which occurs "before the foundation of the world"! That is flat out backwards. In effect, you claim the opposite of Paul.

BELIEF/FAITH COMPARED BETWEEN YOU AND PAUL

You indicate persons manipulate belief/faith such that a person can cause oneself to believe in Jesus.

Paul indicates persons unavoidably receive belief/faith by the power of God when he wrote "that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love He predestined us to adoption as sons" with this established by God "before the foundation of the world". In fact, Paul states that God gives belief/faith and that this belief/faith is not by man so no choice by man and that we believers are God's work (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Belief/Faith Conclusion: you reject that God puts righteous belief/faith inside of persons of which the belief/faith is absolutely guaranteed long ago by God for God's chosen persons; furthermore, Paul is in accord with Jesus' words establishing that God places the complete finished package of belief/faith in a person when the Word says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

"HEAR/ING" COMPARED BETWEEN YOU AND PAUL

In effect, you write that every person everywhere is chosen to hear for a person to make a choice for Christ or against Christ.

Paul wrote "faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" (Romans 10:17).

Hear/ing Conclusion: you write that all people arc chosen to hear even though there are unreached people groups. You write in such a way that the "hear" event is caused by a person, and the "hear" event causes the "chosen" event to occur; moreover, your writing is in direct opposition to Paul's writing that a person "hearing" is done "by the word of Christ", not by some kind of power dredged up by the person, but the person hearing is by the power of God (Mark 7:32-35, 1 Corinthians 1:24).

THE ONE IN CONTROL OF SALVATION COMPARED BETWEEN YOU AND PAUL

You indicate man is exclusively in control of salvation, instead of God, since you attribute the "hear" of a person as part and parcel of the person's decision to choose Jesus unto salvation. You make it out that a person causes oneself to "hear".

Paul indicates God is exclusively in control of man's salvation, instead of man, since Paul attributes salvation to "the kind intention of His will". Paul makes it out that God establishes specific persons unto salvation "before the foundation of the world".

The One in Control of Salvation Conclusion: you imagine man controlling salvation in direct opposition to scripture. No scripture indicates man controls salvation in any way, shape, or form. Scripture clearly indicates God is exclusively in control of salvation of man.

WRAPPING UP THIS POST ABOUT PREDESTINATION

You contradict Paul again and again, Grailhunter, as expressly detailed above.

You have added to scripture, and you have subtracted from scripture, so you do not believe that which the unadulterated scripture reveals. The scripture reveals Who God says God is.

As I wrote previously, that which Jesus says applies to you which is "though hearing, they do not hear or understand" (Matthew 13:13).

Biblically speaking, your writing indicates that you do not understand what predestined means.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

These are the same verses that you interpret to make God out to be a horrible puppet monster.
Using His own book against Him. Shame on you!
You are wasting your time with me, you need to figure out how you are going to explain yourself to Christ on Judgement Day.
An awful lot of effort to damn yourself.
 

Ronald Nolette

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One will NEVER see an alter call, nor will a Calvinist EVER say that Jesus loves you. And, some of the most staunch ones will not even evangelize.
Not saying that Calvinists are not saved, just pointing out that (from personal experience) there is not a lot of hope in this doctrine.


There is always hope in what people call Calvinism.

I am what people would consider a staunch 5 point Calvinist. I ran a bible study in the county jail as a volunteer chaplain for 8 1/2 years and always gave altar calls!

Hyper Calvinists do not evangelize, but Calvinists most definitely evangelize, but our highest priority is different. We do so because the Lord commanded it. Period! God is the one who saves and He chose to use believers to present the gospel to bring in the sheep and bring in the harvest.

I tell people Jesus loves them often! I do not know who will or will not get saved, neither do Armeniasts. We are simply commanded to sow the seed. god bring s the growth and harvest.

NOw I cannot speak for many of the reformed churches, for I am not in one of them, bt in my local independent Baptiust church which would be considered a four point Calvinist church- We offer lots of hope to everyone. We invite all and let God bring in the elect.
 
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Nancy

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There is always hope in what people call Calvinism.

I am what people would consider a staunch 5 point Calvinist. I ran a bible study in the county jail as a volunteer chaplain for 8 1/2 years and always gave altar calls!

Hyper Calvinists do not evangelize, but Calvinists most definitely evangelize, but our highest priority is different. We do so because the Lord commanded it. Period! God is the one who saves and He chose to use believers to present the gospel to bring in the sheep and bring in the harvest.

I tell people Jesus loves them often! I do not know who will or will not get saved, neither do Armeniasts. We are simply commanded to sow the seed. god bring s the growth and harvest.

NOw I cannot speak for many of the reformed churches, for I am not in one of them, bt in my local independent Baptiust church which would be considered a four point Calvinist church- We offer lots of hope to everyone. We invite all and let God bring in the elect.

The pastor of the "reformed" Baptist church I attended not long ago, for 3 years is also a staunch 5 pointer as well. All that time, I never once heard that said to anyone and never once was there an alter call. They were wonderful with missions work but, not so much on the evangelizing. I guess their all somewhat different :)
 
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Ronald Nolette

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The pastor of the "reformed" Baptist church I attended not long ago, for 3 years is also a staunch 5 pointer as well. All that time, I never once heard that said to anyone and never once was there an alter call. They were wonderful with missions work but, not so much on the evangelizing. I guess their all somewhat different :)


Well missions is evangelism. And yes pastors can do things very differently. I know sometimes some preachers in responding to over emotionalism that has plagued parts of the church, have adopted the other extreme and become near emotionless. Both are wrong!

But this I do know, I have no clue in the world who are the elect and who aren't. God loved mankind so much He sent Jesus to die! God also knows who are not His and His wrath is already abiding on them.(JOhn 3:36) We don't know, so we should go and sow th eseed and let god let the plants grow or not.
 
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Kermos

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These are the same verses that you interpret to make God out to be a horrible puppet monster.
Using His own book against Him. Shame on you!
You are wasting your time with me, you need to figure out how you are going to explain yourself to Christ on Judgement Day.
An awful lot of effort to damn yourself.

God's Word does not return to God void (Isaiah 55:11).

So, God creates the vessels of wrath for destruction to demonstrate God's wrath and to make God's power known (Romans 9:22).

If you do not believe the Word of God by the time you die, then as a vessel of wrath you will enter eternity without Christ.

On the other hand, God creates vessels of mercy prepared by God beforehand for glory (Romans 9:23), so all that believe the Word of God are saved from the wrath of God!

One way or the other, as I wrote, the Word of God does not return empty.

Unlike you, I have hope for your soul.

Now, you wickedly call God a "horrible puppet monster", and this is the very God that Paul refers to as the loving Potter of vessels of mercy!

Your words quite contradict Paul's words!

You insult the Potter, that is the One True God, with your use of "horrible puppet monster". That is you rebelling against the Potter just like Paul wrote of with "Why did you make me like this" (Romans 9:20).

Since you have so very much trouble with scripture, here is the passage:

"who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:20-23).
 
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Kermos

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These threads on Calvinism are a total waste of time.

It is alsways a blessing to be filled by the Word of God (John 17:21), to share the Word of God (Matthew 22:29), to love the Word of God (Matthew 22:37).

God's Word does not return to God void (Isaiah 55:11).

So, God creates the vessels of wrath for destruction to demonstrate God's wrath and to make God's power known (Romans 9:22).

If you do not believe the Word of God by the time you die, then as a vessel of wrath you will enter eternity without Christ.

On the other hand, God creates vessels of mercy prepared by God beforehand for glory (Romans 9:23), so all that believe the Word of God are saved from the wrath of God!

One way or the other, as I wrote, the Word of God does not return empty.

Unlike you, I have hope for your soul.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
 

Kermos

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I agree with the above statement... :D

Since you indicate that you agree with Enoch111, here is an important post for you.

It is alsways a blessing to be filled by the Word of God (John 17:21), to share the Word of God (Matthew 22:29), to love the Word of God (Matthew 22:37).

God's Word does not return to God void (Isaiah 55:11).

So, God creates the vessels of wrath for destruction to demonstrate God's wrath and to make God's power known (Romans 9:22).

If you do not believe the Word of God by the time you die, then as a vessel of wrath you will enter eternity without Christ.

On the other hand, God creates vessels of mercy prepared by God beforehand for glory (Romans 9:23), so all that believe the Word of God are saved from the wrath of God!

One way or the other, as I wrote, the Word of God does not return empty.

Unlike you, I have hope for your soul.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
 

Kermos

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Have you noticed, it is always the cults who are so pushy. I reckon it is a sign of their insecurity.
.

You have proven yourself to be quite the subtractor from the Word of God.

In this post, I point out where you subtracted from the Word of God, for you wrote, "it is the tree of KNOWLEDGE.", so when you stopped your sentence, you subtracted the full identification of the "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". This is where I was pointing out that the Hebrew word "ra" is translated to "evil" in Genesis 2:9, Genesis 2:17, and Isaiah 45:7, so it appears you where trying to somehow subtract from the Word of God there. I have not noticed an apology for your lie, so you call God a liar.

You wrote "God does not create evil" (link to your post in this thread) which demonstrates your proclivity to subtract from the Word of God, such as where the Word of God states "I" "create evil" (Isaiah 45:7), and this has been shown to you earlier in this thread. I have not noticed an apology for your lie, so you call God a liar.

In this post, it is shown where you say the there is a different god for the first 39 books of the Bible from the god of the final 27 books of the Bible, and I provide reference scripture of Malachi 3:6 and Revelation 1:8, and you replied without including an apology for your lie, so you call God a liar.

A child of God DOES NOT CALL GOD A LIAR.

People that subtract from the Word of God are liars, and it is written of liars "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into" the holy city (Revelation 21:27).
 

Ronald Nolette

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God's Word does not return to God void (Isaiah 55:11).

So, God creates the vessels of wrath for destruction to demonstrate God's wrath and to make God's power known (Romans 9:22).

If you do not believe the Word of God by the time you die, then as a vessel of wrath you will enter eternity without Christ.

On the other hand, God creates vessels of mercy prepared by God beforehand for glory (Romans 9:23), so all that believe the Word of God are saved from the wrath of God!

One way or the other, as I wrote, the Word of God does not return empty.

Unlike you, I have hope for your soul.

Now, you wickedly call God a "horrible puppet monster", and this is the very God that Paul refers to as the loving Potter of vessels of mercy!

Your words quite contradict Paul's words!

You insult the Potter, that is the One True God, with your use of "horrible puppet monster". That is you rebelling against the Potter just like Paul wrote of with "Why did you make me like this" (Romans 9:20).

Since you have so very much trouble with scripture, here is the passage:

"who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:20-23).


It is so sad we call ourselves followers of Jesus, then have to twist His Word because of the "hard sayings" found in it! I don't know of anybody that loves the fact God does what He wants with who He wants for whatever He wishes, but that is the reality!

There is the elect and the unelect. The ones predestined and the ones not predestined. I am just glad God changed my direction and made me His own!
 

Cooper

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It is so sad we call ourselves followers of Jesus, then have to twist His Word because of the "hard sayings" found in it! I don't know of anybody that loves the fact God does what He wants with who He wants for whatever He wishes, but that is the reality!

There is the elect and the unelect. The ones predestined and the ones not predestined. I am just glad God changed my direction and made me His own!
How did God change your direction?
.
 
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