Calvinist Question

[kcnalp]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (NKJV)
13 God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
Proverbs 16:4 (NKJV)
4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Oh, it was you.
My error you were speaking to Calvin’s defense, but at the same time what you posted makes no since.

In my reading of Calvin, I don't see anywhere he says that God deliberately created anyone to go to hell. But he did say that because of Adam's sin all mankind was doomed to be condemned. That's a given and all Calvin did was acknowledge it. His view was that the sin of Adam made it impossible for anyone to do anything to please God and be saved. Even if man tried to keep God's Law, the most minor infraction of it doubly doomed man to condemnation because violation of God's Law brought death, and that just one minor infraction was equivalent to violating the whole Law. So, man was trapped on the broad road to hell. Paul is quite clear about that in Romans, and all Calvin did was show it.

Those who oppose Calvin believe and teach that there is enough goodness in man for him to be able to choose for Christ when hearing the Gospel. Calvin believed that the rot has set in so far, that man has no good in him even to do that. He believed that God had to intervene by His mercy and grace by choosing some to be saved. He didn't have to actually determine anyone to go to hell, because all of mankind was headed there anyway. It was acts of God's mercy and unmerited grace that He decided to choose a few to be saved by enlightening them by the Holy Spirit.

The criteria under which God chose some and left others is a mystery, and Calvin fully acknowledge that.

The reality for us that if we understand and believe the Gospel, and are able to speak to God in prayer, it shows that we have received new life. That's what Calvin teaches. It is a mystery to me why out of all the members of my family, I was the one who was enlightened with the Gospel and was saved, and that in spite of my best efforts to persuade them to believe the Gospel, they remained adamant in their disbelief of it.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Those questions were for you really.

Perhaps, you are telling me that you share the same view as mine?

Tong
R2730

I believe that God is sovereign in all His choices and that I am so thankful that He chose to enlighten me with the Gospel, gave me the faith to receive Christ, and through the Holy Spirit made Himself real to me. I believe that I am saved through his unmerited grace through nothing that I could have done to contribute to it. I can't explain why I could believe the Gospel, when others around me refused to believe it.

 

[Paul Christensen]

What scriptures said is clear regarding the creation, including mankind, at least the kind of Adam.

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Genesis 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

I don’t see God had created dead people. So there is no need for such assumption.

Tong
R2731

God never created dead people. All mankind became spiritually dead because of Adam's sin. God created Adam to produce a race of human beings to fellowship with Him in love. But Adam failed to obey His instructions, and brought sin and death upon mankind. But it was the second Adam, Jesus, who now has the keys of death and hell, and those who put their faith and trust in Him, are no longer in bondage to the fear of death, because they have passed from death to life, and that physical death is just the gateway to eternal life with Christ.

 

[Tong2020]

I believe that God is sovereign in all His choices and that I am so thankful that He chose to enlighten me with the Gospel, gave me the faith to receive Christ, and through the Holy Spirit made Himself real to me. I believe that I am saved through his unmerited grace through nothing that I could have done to contribute to it. I can't explain why I could believe the Gospel, when others around me refused to believe it.

Then we share the same view of the salvation of God, at least with respect to that which you said in your post.

Tong
R2735

 

[Waiting on him]

What scriptures said is clear regarding the creation, including mankind, at least the kind of Adam.

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Genesis 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

I don’t see God had created dead people. So there is no need for such assumption.

Tong
R2731

Neither do I, I see Christ and the scripture quoted in reference to Him.

 

[justbyfaith]

neither Eze 28 nor Isa 14 are talking about Satan. Just thought I would make that point. Folks who call Satan by the name "Lucifer" are misguided. Its a minor thing, as I know what they are trying to get at. Even that is usually false... But I can see what they are trying to say.

You are going to face disagreement in making those statements.

Lucifer ("Light bringer") was the name of the devil before he fell and was given the name of satan ("adversary").

Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 are indeed passages about him.

So there’s a solar and lunar cycle.

Apparently there is at least a solar cycle. Or, it could just be referring to the fact that there will be an understanding of the passage of time for those who are tormented in the lake of fire.

WHAT A WASTE OF TIME!!!!

<fify>

Calvin believed that the rot has set in so far, that man has no good in him even to do that. He believed that God had to intervene by His mercy and grace by choosing some to be saved.

God intervened in every man's life by drawing him to Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Every man is then given an opportunity to either receive or reject Christ; and if they receive Him, then they are born again.

Regeneration is not necessary in order for a man to be able to receive Christ. Only the drawing of the Holy Spirit is needed; and that does not amount to regeneration.

When a man enters into the window of opportunity where he can either receive or reject Christ, this does not mean that he has already been born again. He has the opportunity to be born again.

Here is John 1:12...

Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Notice it does not say that "To as many as became the sons of God, to them He gave the power to receive Him."

The latter would have to be the real rendering if Calvinism be true.

But it was the second Adam, Jesus,

Jesus is the last Adam. There will not be a third.

 

[Tong2020]

Here is John 1:12...

Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Who are the “them” that believe on his name according to John? Did he not tell us who they are in v13?

Tong
R2748

 

[Paul Christensen]

You are going to face disagreement in making those statements.

Lucifer ("Light bringer") was the name of the devil before he fell and was given the name of satan ("adversary").

Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 are indeed passages about him.



Apparently there is at least a solar cycle. Or, it could just be referring to the fact that there will be an understanding of the passage of time for those who are tormented in the lake of fire.



<fify>



God intervened in every man's life by drawing him to Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Every man is then given an opportunity to either receive or reject Christ; and if they receive Him, then they are born again.

Regeneration is not necessary in order for a man to be able to receive Christ. Only the drawing of the Holy Spirit is needed; and that does not amount to regeneration.

When a man enters into the window of opportunity where he can either receive or reject Christ, this does not mean that he has already been born again. He has the opportunity to be born again.

Here is John 1:12...

Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Notice it does not say that "To as many as became the sons of God, to them He gave the power to receive Him."

The latter would have to be the real rendering if Calvinism be true.



Jesus is the last Adam. There will not be a third.

You missed out the Scripture: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44).

 

[justbyfaith]

Who are the “them” that believe on his name according to John? Did he not tell us who they are in v13?

Tong
R2748

They receive and believe and are then give the right to become children of God.

They do not become a child of God and then receive and believe; according to that scripture. Believing and receiving comes first.

 

[justbyfaith]

You missed out the Scripture: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44).

The one who comes to Him, not necessarily the one whom He has drawn.

 

[Paul Christensen]

The one who comes to Him, not necessarily the one whom He has drawn.

That doesn't make sense. The Scripture plainly says no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him. This clearly says that the Father has to first draw the person before they can come to Christ. So the fact that a person believes the Gospel and comes to Christ means that the Father has drawn him. Interestingly, Calvin says that no one can even speak to God without having received new life. So the fact that a person can pray in such a way that he believes that God is really there and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him, means that he has been drawn to Christ by the Holy Spirit in the first place. But an unregenerate person can pray to God, but his prayers go nowhere because he has not been drawn to Christ to be born again of the Holy Spirit.

 

[justbyfaith]

That doesn't make sense. The Scripture plainly says no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him. This clearly says that the Father has to first draw the person before they can come to Christ. So the fact that a person believes the Gospel and comes to Christ means that the Father has drawn him.

However, the person who is drawn to Christ will not necessarily come to Christ.

When the person is drawn to Christ, he or she now has a choice of whether he or she will believe and receive Christ, or have unbelief and reject Christ.

The person who comes to Christ has been drawn by Christ; however it does not necessarily fly in the other direction...

The person who is drawn by Christ is not necessarily guaranteed to come to Christ.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Who are the “them” that believe on his name according to John? Did he not tell us who they are in v13?

They receive and believe and are then give the right to become children of God.

They do not become a child of God and then receive and believe; according to that scripture. Believing and receiving comes first.

You did not answer my question.

Who are the “them” that believe on his name according to John?

According to John in verse 13, they are those who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

You refute that by stating your belief that believing and receiving comes first. Well, not a refutation I should say. If that will be taken as a refutation, then anybody could refute one’s position by just stating his belief.

Tong
R2767

 

[Tong2020]

Paul Christensen said: ↑
You missed out the Scripture: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44).

The one who comes to Him, not necessarily the one whom He has drawn.

How could you easily forget, that “coming” there means believing?

Tong
R2768

 

[justbyfaith]

You did not answer my question.

Who are the “them” that believe on his name according to John?

Which comes first, believing and receiving, or becoming a child of God (receiving life)?

Your theology, and Calvinism, say that becoming a child of God (receiving life) comes first.

John 1:12 says the opposite.

Enough of a reason for me to reject your theology.

So, if you are also not going to change your point of view, there may not be any reason to continue this discussion.

 

[Tong2020]

Which comes first, believing and receiving, or becoming a child of God (receiving life)?

Your theology, and Calvinism, say that becoming a child of God (receiving life) comes first.

John 1:12 says the opposite.

Enough of a reason for me to reject your theology.

So, if you are also not going to change your point of view, there may not be any reason to continue this discussion.

I guess it’s wise to agree to disagree at this point.

Tong
R2783