Calvinist Question

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Further, God’s election of people for salvation, not only is in accordance to foreknowledge, but is consistent with His nature and character. It could not be otherwise.

Fortunately (or unfortunately for you) you do not have any Scriptures to support these ideas. On the other hand there are dozens of Scriptures which clearly assert that God wants ALL MEN (people) to be saved. Let's take one verse which is actually the recorded words of Christ, and another which is the recorded words of John the Baptizer:

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17)

This corresponds to John 1:29: The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Since just these two verse TOTALLY DEMOLISH the Calvinistic narrative of election for salvation, what Calvinists will do DISHONESTLY is try to change the meaning of the word "world". But the concordances and lexicons will not allow that. "The world" means the world of humanity, the human race (and none of the other meanings).

Strong's Concordance
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Definition: order, the world
Usage: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

God sent His Son into the world to save the world, therefore the Lamb of God took away the sin of the world. Does this mean that everyone will be automatically saved? Not at all. God commands all men everywhere to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. But since all will not obey the Gospel, broad is the way to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat.

Are you arguing against my statement that God’s choosing is consistent with His will, nature and character? Why, are you in the belief that God’s choosing is not consistent with His will, nature and character?

I stand by my statement, and even would go as far as to generally say that all that God does is consistent with His will, nature and character.

I am giving you not one passage, but the whole scriptures as that which supports that.

Tong
R2698

 

[FHII]

Not if you make due diligence and go check out the Greek texts.

The Greek word translated “ordained” in the KJV comes from “prographó” which means to write before. Also, the context does not suggest nor support the sense of predestination there.

Tong
R2692

I did... And it was listed in several ways as "to cause".

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Not if you make due diligence and go check out the Greek texts.

The Greek word translated “ordained” in the KJV comes from “prographó” which means to write before. Also, the context does not suggest nor support the sense of predestination there.

I did... And it was listed in several ways as "to cause".

The Greek word “prographó” does not have the sense of predestination. Even that which you say it means “to cause” does not have the sense of predestination.

But if you are convinced and want to go with that take, that’s your choice. Though I must say that, such is not consistent with the nature and character of God as revealed throughout scriptures. Among others, it would have God creating people only to condemn and punish in hell, contrary to His expressed displeasure in the destruction of death of one.

On the other hand, taking the word “prographó” as what the word means that is “to write before” not only fits well with the context, but is consistent with God’s nature and character as revealed throughout scriptures.

Tong
R2699

 

[Truman]

The lake of fire is portrayed to be a place of punishment, not a place of non existence, not a place where none will exist or cease to exist, but a place where wicked people exist, serving their sentence of punishment for the sins they have committed.

Tong
R2697

Is this your hope?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
The lake of fire is portrayed to be a place of punishment, not a place of non existence, not a place where none will exist or cease to exist, but a place where wicked people exist, serving their sentence of punishment for the sins they have committed.

Is this your hope?

That is my understanding of what the lake of fire is, in my reading and study of God’s words in scriptures.

Tong
R2704

 

[Waiting on him]

How can God punish anyone for being chosen to go to hell?

Maybe we should ask Jesus, being this was His fate?

 

[Brakelite]

It is my understanding that when one is thrown into the lake of fire, they cease to exist.

Eventually, after they have served their time, yes.

 

[Truman]

Eventually, after they have served their time, yes.

Hmm, something new to ponder, thanks.

 

[FHII]

The Greek word “prographó” does not have the sense of predestination. Even that which you say it means “to cause” does not have the sense of predestination.

Yes, it actually does. Everything in Jude 1:4 and Ephesians 1 both show the words "ordained" and "predestinated" to have been determined and caused by God beforehand. The Strong's Greek Concordance backs me up on this as does the context of the verse and chapter.

Though I must say that, such is not consistent with the nature and character of God as revealed throughout scriptures.

That is rediculous and untrue... Its right there in the scripture and you are saying it is not consistent with itself... In other words, you are saying scripture is inconsistent with scripture. That is nonsensical.

On the other hand, taking the word “prographó” as what the word means that is “to write before” not only fits well with the context, but is consistent with God’s nature and character as revealed throughout scriptures.

Yes, that's what a lot of people do... When they don't believe the Bible they run to Strongs and find a buffet table filled with many options which they can pick from to make God out whom they want them to be.

The primary meaining of the word according to Stong's is to cause. Even if it does mean "to publish" that does not say God didn't cause it. Furthermore, the context doesn't fit Jude 1:4 at all.

 

[justbyfaith]

It is my understanding that when one is thrown into the lake of fire, they cease to exist.

Why, then, is there wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46)?

 

[Truman]

Why, then, is there wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46)?

I suggest you ask the Lord.

 

[justbyfaith]

I suggest you ask the Lord.

His answer is that a man is not annihilated when he is cast into the lake of fire. He does not cease to exist, as you have falsely claimed.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
The Greek word “prographó” does not have the sense of predestination. Even that which you say it means “to cause” does not have the sense of predestination.

Yes, it actually does. Everything in Jude 1:4 and Ephesians 1 both show the words "ordained" and "predestinated" to have been determined and caused by God beforehand. The Strong's Greek Concordance backs me up on this as does the context of the verse and chapter.

As I said, if you are convinced and want to go with that take, that’s your choice.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Though I must say that, such is not consistent with the nature and character of God as revealed throughout scriptures.

That is rediculous and untrue... Its right there in the scripture and you are saying it is not consistent with itself... In other words, you are saying scripture is inconsistent with scripture. That is nonsensical.

Apparently it is in your view.

I am not even saying it is inconsistent wit itself, nor did I say scriptures is inconsistent with scriptures. Rather I said that such a take of the word “prographo” is inconsistent with God’s nature and character. I have given you one inconsistency, but you apparently kept silent about it. Must face this one “it would have God creating people only to condemn and punish in hell, contrary to His expressed displeasure in the destruction of death of one.”

Tong2020 said: ↑
On the other hand, taking the word “prographó” as what the word means that is “to write before” not only fits well with the context, but is consistent with God’s nature and character as revealed throughout scriptures.

Yes, that's what a lot of people do... When they don't believe the Bible they run to Strongs and find a buffet table filled with many options which they can pick from to make God out whom they want them to be.

The primary meaining of the word according to Stong's is to cause. Even if it does mean "to publish" that does not say God didn't cause it. Furthermore, the context doesn't fit Jude 1:4 at all.

It’s due diligence to make examination and checking if and when at least two translations seems to convey different message. And one that can be done is to check the text and the meaning of the words. It is in the interest of truth that one goes through such especially when one makes reference to a passage in support to a teaching that seems to be inconsistent with God’s nature and character as revealed in scriptures. Do you want to know the Greek for “predestination” or “foreordained”? It’s not “prographo”. You can also check with other Greek dictionaries and lexicons, to be sure.

Pro = before
Grapho = to write.

That is the primary meaning.

Among many, the NIV translates it with this meaning.

3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

As you can see, nowhere in the context can we see anything about predestination, more so then of people predestined for condemnation. It is about people who pervert the grace of God, people whose condemnation were prophesied about long ago.

Tong
R2713

 

[Truman]

Peace.

 

[FHII]

I have given you one inconsistency, but you apparently kept silent about it. Must face this one “it would have God creating people only to condemn and punish in hell, contrary to His expressed displeasure in the destruction of death of one.”

I actually dealt with that. You refuse to see God (despite what the scripture says) as anything but how you want to see him.. Again, its another attempt to explain why the Bible doesnt mean what it says.

Believe as you will.

 

[Brakelite]

His answer is that a man is not annihilated when he is cast into the lake of fire. He does not cease to exist, as you have falsely claimed.

Not at first, no. But after the appropriate number of "stripes", some few, others many, the sinner will be extinguished. Even Satan is destroyed in the end, although with him it may take longer...
KJV Ezekiel 28:13-19
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[Waiting on him]

Not at first, no. But after the appropriate number of "stripes", some few, others many, the sinner will be extinguished. Even Satan is destroyed in the end, although with him it may take longer...
KJV Ezekiel 28:13-19
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

What’s this talking about fallen Israel?

 

[Brakelite]

What’s this talking about fallen Israel?

No. It's about Satan.
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; ... And many other allusions to Satan/ Lucifer in that passage

 

[FHII]

Confusing cause and response or cause and prophecy makes God responsible for Lucifers rebellion....ie, Lucifer uses this argument to justify his rebellion/accusation ie 'God's way of running the show is tilted in his favour because he has the power to control everything therefore it is self interest (selfishness) that motivates God.'
The proof/evidence that this was a lie; a false accusation was the Jesus event....to the death. He would rather die than use force or stop loving.
This was not a pantomime, it was real. God took an unimaginable risk by taking on human flesh in its weakness.....and to the joy of the Universe, prevailed.

God gives life....Death is an enemy. God's words to the first couple were, 'if you eat of this tree you will surely die.' This prophecy did not cause them to die, it warned them of consequences.

The texts you have quoted have to do with the foreknowledge of God not his causation.

Well that's basically the same thing you said before with an added irrelevant, erroneous and unscriptural commentary on Satan added in. I gave you the scriptures that prove your theory wrong.

 

[Waiting on him]

Ezekiel 28:2 KJV
[2] Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God ; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
2 Thessalonians 2:4 KJV
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.