Calvinist Question

[Waiting on him]

No. It's about Satan.
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; ... And many other allusions to Satan/ Lucifer in that passage

Are you certain?

 

[Waiting on him]

Yet thou art a man and not God.

 

[Brakelite]

Ezekiel 28:2 KJV
[2] Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God ; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
2 Thessalonians 2:4 KJV
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Parallels Isaiah 14.

 

[Waiting on him]

Parallels Isaiah 14.

Absolutely, God broke the scepter.

 

[justbyfaith]

Not at first, no. But after the appropriate number of "stripes", some few, others many, the sinner will be extinguished. Even Satan is destroyed in the end, although with him it may take longer...
KJV Ezekiel 28:13-19
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Here is the fate of the devil in holy scripture...

Rev 20:10, And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Paul Christensen]

There is no need to claim that Calvin did NOT teach the same concept of election as is found in the Westminster Confession of Faith. So here is what Calvin said:

"We shall never be clearly persuaded, as we ought to be, that our salvation flows from the wellspring of God’s free mercy until we come to know his eternal election, which illumines God’s grace by this contrast: that he does not indiscriminately adopt all into the hope of salvation but gives to some what he denies to others." (Institutes 3.21.1)

In other words, God elects some for salvation and others for damnation. And that is exactly what we find in the Westminster Confession.

But that contradicts the Gospel and the Bible and therefore is a damnable doctrine. God invites all humanity to be saved. Indeed God commands all men everywhere to repent, and He also commands all men to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The reason being that (1) He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance, and (2) God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Calvin was essentially dishonest, in that even though he knew the truth, and even presented the truth in his commentaries, he still created a false gospel. All you have to do is go to Bible Hub and check out his commentary on John 1:29 (and few other similar passages).

But in the quote that you gave, there is no mention of Calvin's reasons why God does not automatically adopt everyone into the household of faith. I don't think that the Lord will grant salvation to someone who refuses to believe the Gospel.

Calvin was a pioneer in the sense that he was the first Reformer to come up with a systematic theology that was not biased toward RCC theology. As a pioneer, he was breaking new ground from what he saw in the written Scriptures. I'm not sure what translation he used. I think he had the Latin Vulgate because he quotes it in his commentaries. He would have had a French translation because he was French. He had a knowledge of Hebrew and Greek, because he uses Hebrew in his OT and Greek in his NT commentaries.

I don't think that Calvin taught that God deliberately created people to go to hell. I don't think that it is as clear cut from the Scriptures as that. The truth from Scripture is that all mankind is condemned to hell already because of Adam's sin. So it wasn't God who deliberately condemns people to hell, it was the outcome of Adam's rebellion against God that is the basis of the problem.

Also, we don't have a clear view of many of the mysteries surrounding election, reprobation, foreknowledge, and so any attempt to settle these things in a systematic theology is going to be imperfect.

My view is that if we understand and believe the Gospel, and have received Christ as Saviour, then we are elected, and those who disbelieve and rebel against it are reprobate. I don't think that Calvin had any argument against that. I don't think that Calvin himself fully knew the mechanics of it, and when I read his commentaries, he often describes his comments as what seems bests to him out of all the other theories he knows.

 

[Paul Christensen]

You sound to know a lot about what Calvin preached and taught. Now let’s go to what God preached and taught in scriptures.

<<<God chooses for salvation those who believe and obey the Gospel, period.>>>

That sounds good. But is that really how it os or what? I have a few questions for your consideration.

Is God’s choosing of people for salvation depend on the will of man? Or does it depend on His will, nature and character?

What does God say about the fallen man’s heart, his heart from where his will is defined?

What does scriptures say of the fallen state of mankind?

Now, consider the election of Abraham. Before God chose Abraham, was Abraham a believer or a worshiper of idols? Some would appeal to the power of God to look into the future and point out that God saw that Abraham will believe and on that basis have chosen Abraham. However, that is not what scriptures tells us concerning God’s choosing of Abraham, but is just what they want to believe. Besides, while God have power to know ahead or know the future, God have the authority and power to use or not use that power, as He wills and pleases. Don’t you believe that, if you have already considered that?

In my reading and study of scriptures, God’s choosing of people for salvation is according to what is consistent to His will, nature and character, to the praise and glory of His Holy Name and for His good purpose and pleasure.

Tong
R2696

You've basically answered your own question, so I don't have to.

 

[FHII]

neither Eze 28 nor Isa 14 are talking about Satan. Just thought I would make that point. Folks who call Satan by the name "Lucifer" are misguided. Its a minor thing, as I know what they are trying to get at. Even that is usually false... But I can see what they are trying to say.

 

[Waiting on him]

Here is the fate of the devil in holy scripture...

Rev 20:10, And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So there’s a solar and lunar cycle.

 

[Enoch111]

I don't think that Calvin taught that God deliberately created people to go to hell.

Then how is that doctrine found in the Westminster Confession of Faith?

 

[Waiting on him]

The way I understand, is only the born again are created of God. I understand many believe they came spilling from the womb receiving the breath of God.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Then how is that doctrine found in the Westminster Confession of Faith?

The Westminster Confession of Faith is a document that was formed by the English Reformers who put their interpretation of Calvin's and others' teaching into it. Calvin didn't write it. The English Presbyterians did.

 

[Paul Christensen]

The way I understand, is only the born again are created of God. I understand many believe they came spilling from the womb receiving the breath of God.

You might have to explain what you mean by "created of God" and "receiving the breath of God". Otherwise your comment is a bit obscure.

 

[Waiting on him]

You might have to explain what you mean by "created of God" and "receiving the breath of God". Otherwise your comment is a bit obscure.

Are the Pentecostals reformed Roman Catholics also?

 

[Waiting on him]

You might have to explain what you mean by "created of God" and "receiving the breath of God". Otherwise your comment is a bit obscure.

Someone made the post that Calvin suggests that God creates individuals only to eternally torment them, this is a lie. Maybe Calvin understood that those born of God are a new creature. I personally believe that Scripture only states that He created Adam then Eve from Adam. They in turn Procreated.

 

[Waiting on him]

Oh, it was you.
My error you were speaking to Calvin’s defense, but at the same time what you posted makes no since.

 

[Waiting on him]

You might have to explain what you mean by "created of God" and "receiving the breath of God". Otherwise your comment is a bit obscure.

Are you of the opinion that God formed or created you in your mothers womb?

 

[Waiting on him]

Lol, this whole thread is based on the assumption that God Creates dead people.


WHAT A WAIST OF TIME!!!!

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
You sound to know a lot about what Calvin preached and taught. Now let’s go to what God preached and taught in scriptures.

<<<God chooses for salvation those who believe and obey the Gospel, period.>>>

That sounds good. But is that really how it os or what? I have a few questions for your consideration.

Is God’s choosing of people for salvation depend on the will of man? Or does it depend on His will, nature and character?

What does God say about the fallen man’s heart, his heart from where his will is defined?

What does scriptures say of the fallen state of mankind?

Now, consider the election of Abraham. Before God chose Abraham, was Abraham a believer or a worshiper of idols? Some would appeal to the power of God to look into the future and point out that God saw that Abraham will believe and on that basis have chosen Abraham. However, that is not what scriptures tells us concerning God’s choosing of Abraham, but is just what they want to believe. Besides, while God have power to know ahead or know the future, God have the authority and power to use or not use that power, as He wills and pleases. Don’t you believe that, if you have already considered that?

In my reading and study of scriptures, God’s choosing of people for salvation is according to what is consistent to His will, nature and character, to the praise and glory of His Holy Name and for His good purpose and pleasure.

You've basically answered your own question, so I don't have to.

Those questions were for you really.

Perhaps, you are telling me that you share the same view as mine?

Tong
R2730

 

[Tong2020]

Lol, this whole thread is based on the assumption that God Creates dead people.


WHAT A WAIST OF TIME!!!!

What scriptures said is clear regarding the creation, including mankind, at least the kind of Adam.

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Genesis 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

I don’t see God had created dead people. So there is no need for such assumption.

Tong
R2731