So great is the mercy of God that even one who previously killed the family of God could be forgiven and given a place of honour in that same family! Who but God can do this??
We are never so far away from God that His mercy cannot reach us.
Can A Person Be a Christian And A Sinner At The Same Time ?
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So great is the mercy of God that even one who previously killed the family of God could be forgiven and given a place of honour in that same family! Who but God can do this??
We are never so far away from God that His mercy cannot reach us.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
We are on a good track if we have not railed against the truth as many seem to do with impunity on this forum. We are called to exhort rebuke and correct with all sound doctrine from the word. We all have copies of the bible. That is the beginning point of our conversation.
As musicians can communicate based on music theory...let's say...we are playing in e flat major!!!. Musicians can then quickly tell if the player knows music and his instrument. It takes only a few seconds to ascertain this.
the same is true with spiritual things....regarding the truth...by how one reads the bible..or twists it's meaning.
We cannot judge a person's walk on this forum since we are not with the person.
So our chats are limited to the shared experience of reading the bible and our experiences with God and others.
So if you resort to "theories" that are outside the bible..we have no ground to communicate on.
If a violinist says he's playing in the key of raspberries...no one will understand what he is talking about. He may be showing that he has no real grasp of music at all.
So I appeal to you to use actual verses with actual practical applications and ramifications based on that word. If you fall short of the word...then be humble and teachable. If you don't know what e flat minor means...you can always ask.
Once again, we are equals Epikopos. As a classical violinist, you may not recognize blue grass as music, but we are playing the same instrument.
Here is my problem with using verses out of context to support my opinion:
1. Any verse can be used out of context to support any opinion (Jehovah's Witnesses have proven it - they really are the most extreme form of fundamentalism)
2. Long posts of verse after verse are extremely boring to read, especially if you have to force yourself to follow the logic people are using in the construction of their personal tower of Babel. Only a few people on this board are adept at doing this with any meaning or readability. I rarely read these type of posts. Also when I read the Bible - I always read it book by book because I value context so much.
3. The Bible has become so much apart of who I am that I find it difficult to pick it apart, verse by verse - it is sort of like telling someone have to tie their shoes without showing them.
4. I am not here to teach - I am interested in a discussion.
5. I am a counselor by profession, not a lawyer. Therefore, relationships are much more meaningful to me than building cases.
So, right or wrong - that is the reason I do not use a lot of scripture.
As far as theories outside the Bible - we both use them. In my case, I am Catholic so I refer to Tradition and Scripture in order to navigate, communicate and understand my relationship with God. Here's another issue - I like to think about the Bible, not simply regurgitate it. I realize how unpopular this idea is, but it is true for me. I believe that God gave us our brain to think rather than simply memorize.
Well put.
I would still champion the memorization of scripture, though.
The personal memorization and recitation during times of prayer and times of decision can prove most valuable.
I have been taught that the Word of God does not come back void and that whatever scripture you put in you, the Holy Spirit can use it to guide you, instruct you, and yes, help others.
But being able to track down a scripture to support one of your positions is NOT the same thing.
I would still champion the memorization of scripture, though.
The personal memorization and recitation during times of prayer and times of decision can prove most valuable.
I have been taught that the Word of God does not come back void and that whatever scripture you put in you, the Holy Spirit can use it to guide you, instruct you, and yes, help others.
But being able to track down a scripture to support one of your positions is NOT the same thing.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I agree. I had a cool experience with memorization of scripture. I used to work with brain injured adults. Many of them lost a lot of their memory, but the people who had spent a lot of time memorizing the Bible could still recall them - almost automatically. And they had a tendency to recover faster because they would continue spending time reading the Bible.
If a person is acquitted of a murder charge...does that mean he can now murder without any further consequences in the future?
If a man is forgiven for past sins by Jesus Christ, does that mean he can transgress the law without penalty from now on?
If a man is forgiven for past sins by Jesus Christ, does that mean he can transgress the law without penalty from now on?
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
No one here who is admitting the reality of sin after justification is advocating for it. Sin is to be avoided. It is not 'ok' to sin before justification or after it, but it happens.
We are not talking about deliberately committing sin. We are talking about the sin we commit despite our best efforts to avoid them.
How is sin avoided...human effort?
Does Christianity have to do with our best efforts?
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Epikopos - asking if I believe human effort is involved in avoiding sin is part of your circular reasoning.
For example,
If I say that Christians sin, you deny it or if the sin is so obvious it cannot be denied, you declare the person as not really a Christian.
If I say Christians are still sinners, but should resist sin, you declare it human effort/works.
Your denial of Christian sin is propped up by the claim anyone who tries to point of the reality of sin in the lives of Christians is trying to take away the victory in Christ.
Based on your refusal to accept the reality of your own, personal sin and the sins of other Christians, our conversation has reached the point of futility. Here is a summary of my stance:
1. Christian sin cannot be denied
2. Claiming that our relationship with Christ is severed every time a Christian sins is a greater denial of Christ's love and faithfulness than claiming that a sinless Christian life is necessary for Christ to be victorious.
3. Human effort through surrender is involved in sanctification.
4. Sanctification is a process, not instantaneous.
5. Our sin drives us away from God, not God away from us. Unconfessed venial sins hurt the quality of our relationship with God from our point of view, not God's. Unconfessed mortal sins put a human wedge of guilt and shame between us and God. We do not have the ability to be faithful to God if we carry unconfessed sins, but He is still faithful to us.
For example,
If I say that Christians sin, you deny it or if the sin is so obvious it cannot be denied, you declare the person as not really a Christian.
If I say Christians are still sinners, but should resist sin, you declare it human effort/works.
Your denial of Christian sin is propped up by the claim anyone who tries to point of the reality of sin in the lives of Christians is trying to take away the victory in Christ.
Based on your refusal to accept the reality of your own, personal sin and the sins of other Christians, our conversation has reached the point of futility. Here is a summary of my stance:
1. Christian sin cannot be denied
2. Claiming that our relationship with Christ is severed every time a Christian sins is a greater denial of Christ's love and faithfulness than claiming that a sinless Christian life is necessary for Christ to be victorious.
3. Human effort through surrender is involved in sanctification.
4. Sanctification is a process, not instantaneous.
5. Our sin drives us away from God, not God away from us. Unconfessed venial sins hurt the quality of our relationship with God from our point of view, not God's. Unconfessed mortal sins put a human wedge of guilt and shame between us and God. We do not have the ability to be faithful to God if we carry unconfessed sins, but He is still faithful to us.
I'm just asking. It is our attitude that is important. The New Testament is in the heart not the head.
1Jo 5:20 esv "(20) And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true"
2Ti 3:16 esv "(16) All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,"
using the head is very profitable and appropriate, I encourage to try
Sanctification is instantaneous since He is faithful to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness...not just a persentage of untighteousness.
What takes time is to learn to fix our affections on the thinks of God...not this world. So we need to learn character. This character refuses to seek the things of this world. We are tested and at times may be fooled into leaving the close walk in Christ. But we can repent and return to God.
We are to put on Christ. This does not take a lifetime to do. Rather, we face our lifetime IN Christ.
What seems to take a lifetime to to stop thinking like sinners and begin to live IN God.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Do you realize what you are saying? If we are thinking like sinners or not 'fixing our affections on God', we are sinning.
Christians can be carnal and they may even sin, but because they are Born-Again, their spiritual status is still Christian...not sinner. Only an unbeliever has the status of a sinner.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Status of sinner in the eyes of God is over after justification. Learning to fix your gaze on God (still sinning) occurs after a lifetime of sanctification.
Bless your heart and thank-you for this! Oh how I wish someone had told me this so long ago! My life has been very hard! But looking back I see him there with me all along! Oh if only I had known this! Well, better late than never!
I praise you our Great God and i thank-you for your kindness and your love! You are there for us even when we don't know it! I thank you God!
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