Can Jesus and Paul be reconciled on the LAW?

[Phoneman777]

I wonder where we get the arrogance to assume that God chose a man to write 3/4 of the NT who is in contradiction to the Subject of that very Testament?

Amen. Paul had to combat two errors: To the Human Achievers crowd on the right he had to emphasize that salvation comes not by obedience, and to the License to Sin crowd on the left, that true salvation unavoidably produces obedience.

 

[Danube]

I wonder where we get the arrogance to assume that God chose a man to write 3/4 of the NT who is in contradiction to the Subject of that very Testament?

I would simply point out the only "proof" (no witness testimony only his own) of Paul being chosen by God came from himself in his own epistles written by himself.
I am begining to see why this Paul is all about faith, because his whole ministry depends on our faith that he was chosen in the first place....Or does scripture say different? I need more assurances, for my future eternity depends on it.

 

[Danube]

The whole Word of God is complete. If God Almighty did not want Paul's epistles in there...they would not be there.

So now your saying you need Paul to be saved and Jesus' has taken a back seat?
Let me ask you this:
If I only ever read Jesus' words only in the NT can I find salvation?
I must remind you then also that every murderer, rapist etc that is sitting in a cell after being proved guilty is there because God wants (?) Removal of the Law is removal of the punishment, which removes the protection of the Law for people who abide by it. No?

 

[Nancy]

So now your saying you need Paul to be saved and Jesus' has taken a back seat?
Let me ask you this:
If I only ever read Jesus' words only in the NT cam I find salvation?

"So now your saying you need Paul to be saved and Jesus' has taken a back seat?"
There is nothing in my post even suggesting this.

"If I only ever read Jesus' words only in the NT cam I find salvation?"
Give it a shot, and find out.

 

[Willie T]

I would simply point out the only "proof" (no witness testimony only his own) of Paul being chosen by God came from himself in his own epistles written by himself.
I am begining to see why this Paul is all about faith, because his whole ministry depends on our faith that he was chosen in the first place....Or does scripture say different? I need more assurances, for my future eternity depends on it.

I don't think anyone here can help you too much in believing the Bible. That will probably end up being strictly between you and God.

 

[Danube]

"So now your saying you need Paul to be saved and Jesus' has taken a back seat?"
There is nothing in my post even suggesting this.

You missed my point. By asking what Paul brought to the table which you said the word of God is complete, it leaves the question of what did Paul actually achieve for salvation that Jesus' had not already during his ministry and after he was risen? Paul does not say " no one comes to the father but through me" so 3/4 of the NT written by him seems alot just to say " yup I agree with Jesus....follow him for he went that way...."

 

[Danube]

Thank you Willie T

 

[Waiting on him]

Ok...here is where I think I might be struggling... so if I am "born in Christ" was this from my mum and dad going back to an unbroken line to Adam.. (flesh/bread & wine/blood = body of Christ aka related by his spirit of truth)..

Or does the spirit have to enter you because you are searching for the truth and that way you either recieve it by "grace" or it never enters you because you were not chosen to recieve the "grace"??

Good people who hold the truth with high esteem and confess Jesus seem to get trodden on and bad people who hate Christ can avoid the Law even by commiting murder and stay alive at the expence of the Good people unharmed and protected by guards... so What is the determining factor of who recieves this "grace"?

Example: while it has been suggested that I might not have recieved his spirit, which I have to consider on the merit of observation, but I continue to keep the commandments and pray and conduct myself well (flee from sin) according to whats been said I might still be lacking "grace"

Paul recieved "grace" but still avoided punishment for overseeing the execution of an early Christian, or avoided the punishment from a sin unto death (also according to Torah observance which Jesus preached) so does that mean that "grace" doesn't or cannot EVER come by your behaviour (good or bad deeds/works) which also can ONLY be judged or determined even measured by the LAW (Torah)?

The struggle is in him not showing what your goodness truly is yet.

 

[Waiting on him]

The struggle is in him not showing what your goodness truly is yet.

Paul thought he was righteous until Christ told him differently. Now he has a choice. Receive the righteousness of Christ to cover his unrighteousness or continue in a state of self righteousness?because Jesus just gave him the truth.

 

[Willie T]

Thank you Willie T

One point that may stimulate new thinking is to consider a very important detail. Paul was sent to preach to an entirely different group of people who lacked a foundational basis the other Apostles could rely on and build upon in addressing their esoterically Jewish audiences.

 

[Nancy]

You missed my point. By asking what Paul brought to the table which you said the word of God is complete, it leaves the question of what did Paul actually achieve for salvation that Jesus' had not already during his ministry and after he was risen? Paul does not say " no one comes to the father but through me" so 3/4 of the NT written by him seems alot just to say " yup I agree with Jesus....follow him for he went that way...."

"what did Paul actually achieve for salvation " Herein seems to lie your problem. Nobody achieves salvation...it is NOT earned. Paul was chosen of God, and if you cannot accept the whole Word of God then, you are cherry picking.
I am sorry Danube, but I am opting out of this convo. God bless.

 

[Willie T]

Interestingly, I don't "believe the Bible" because it says it is true. That would be believing it for the same reason Paul said to believe him.

I first began to trust the accuracy and authenticity of the Bible simply because I found it to be the one and only book that almost everyone down through history has been vehemently trying to destroy and erase from existence. You can see it today in our own American (and other countries') liberal politics.

Yet, it not only remains, but flourishes.

 

[Danube]

Paul thought he was righteous until Christ told him differently. Now he has a choice. Receive the righteousness of Christ to cover his unrighteousness or continue in a state of self righteousness?because Jesus just gave him the truth.

That leaves Paul with the same status as anyone else coming to Christ, but he made "himself" an apostle as Jesus had already given us the lesson of witness testimony of 2 or more, however Paul' apostleship lacks this testimony, accept he confesses a crime unto death.

 

[Waiting on him]

That leaves Paul with the same status as anyone else coming to Christ, but he made "himself" an apostle as Jesus had already given us the lesson of witness testimony of 2 or more, however Paul' apostleship lacks this testimony, accept he confesses a crime unto death.

1 Timothy 1:12-14 KJV
[12] And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; [13] Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. [14] And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Tecarta Bible Premium

 

[Waiting on him]

1 Timothy 1:12-14 KJV
[12] And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; [13] Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. [14] And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Tecarta Bible Premium

Have you done anything wrong in ignorance and unbelief? If so tell Him

 

[Danube]

Interestingly, I don't "believe the Bible" because it says it is true. That would be believing it for the same reason Paul said to believe him.

I first began to trust the accuracy and authenticity of the Bible simply because I found it to be the one and only book that almost everyone down through history has been vehemently trying to destroy and erase from existence. You can see it today in our own American (and other countries') liberal politics.

Yet, it not only remains, but flourishes.

The problem with this argument is it makes Paul look even worse as the world is fast becoming darkened by crime, violence and all imaginable and unimaginable evil but more importantly....going unpunished.
Islam is now flourishing and is growing exponentially in previously held strongholds of Christianity, so I am witnessing the opposite. If you want to know what made all the Christian countries pleasant, safe and prosperous you need to go back to their inception and study how they upheld the LAWS of protection. You either see it or you don't I guess. At present in the US the government are coming after the guns that might defend against evil, in Europe the invading hoards have no fear of the new LAWS that welcome them and allow them to do as thy will! I can assure you they are not here evangelizing or spreading Christianity, these animals are actively destroying it. So I cannot agree for the reasons given.

 

[Danube]

1 Timothy 1:12-14 KJV
[12] And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; [13] Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. [14] And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Tecarta Bible Premium

Witness testimony of 1.
"I said it was so..."
Anyone can now be an Apostle, so you would believe them too?

Have you done anything wrong in ignorance and unbelief? If so tell Him

I repent of my sins and try not to repeat them, I use prayer to stay in communication, however God knows my needs before I do. My inquiry into Paul is sincere, I am still learning all about him and will either have to cleave or dust off my own sandals...

 

[Waiting on him]

Witness testimony of 1.
"I said it was so..."
Anyone can now be an Apostle, so you would believe them too?

I repent of my sins and try not to repeat them, I use prayer to stay in communication, however God knows my needs before I do. My inquiry into Paul is sincere, I am still learning all about him and will either have to cleave or dust off my own sandals...

Greek: ἀπόστολος
Transliteration: apostolos
Pronunciation: ap-os'-tol-os
Definition: From G649; a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (apostle) (with miraculous powers): - apostle messenger he that is sent.
KJV Usage: apostle (78x), messenger (2x), he that is sent (1x).
Occurs: 81
In verses: 80

 

[Willie T]

The problem with this argument is it makes Paul look even worse as the world is fast becoming darkened by crime, violence and all imaginable and unimaginable evil but more importantly....going unpunished.
Islam is now flourishing and is growing exponentially in previously held strongholds of Christianity, so I am witnessing the opposite. If you want to know what made all the Christian countries pleasant, safe and prosperous you need to go back to their inception and study how they upheld the LAWS of protection. You either see it or you don't I guess. At present in the US the government are coming after the guns that might defend against evil, in Europe the invading hoards have no fear of the new LAWS that welcome them and allow them to do as thy will! I can assure you they are not here evangelizing or spreading Christianity, these animals are actively destroying it. So I cannot agree for the reasons given.

And the two guys on the road to Emmaus, not to mention all the other Apostles, KNEW it was "the end" (just as you say you do now) when they reflected on what they saw.

"Faith" is not going by what you are seeing around you. As I said before, no one here can do much for your lack of faith. You will need to work that out with God.

 

[Waiting on him]

Greek: ἀπόστολος
Transliteration: apostolos
Pronunciation: ap-os'-tol-os
Definition: From G649; a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (apostle) (with miraculous powers): - apostle messenger he that is sent.
KJV Usage: apostle (78x), messenger (2x), he that is sent (1x).
Occurs: 81
In verses: 80

That’s a tough one. I do t have an answer