Can we ever stop sinning or be perfect?

[Wynona]

Just an exegetical note: The theologians have argued for centuries over who the "I" is in Romans 7. The followers of Jacob Arminius thought it was Paul before his conversion; those of John Calvin that it was Paul after conversion. Eisenbaum's variant of the latter that I think is correct is that Paul is speaking for the Gentile-Christians in Rome to the Jewish-Christian house-churches of Rome and describing what happens when Gentiles-Christians accept Torah practice as mandatory. Given the setup in Romans 7:1-6 and Paul's own testimony that was never "apart from the Torah" (Philippians 3:4-6) until he died to Torah (Romans 7:6; see also Galatians 2:19-20), I think this view is correct.

But basic principle is that we still have our "flesh" (Romans 7:14), which has it's ἐπιθυμία ("epithumia", lusts, cravings, desires; see Romans 7:7). So, I stand by my analysis that unless God acts through the Spirit, stumbling is statistically inevitable. Why God does not always choose to give every believer immediate and total dominion over their lusts and cravings, I can only speculate.

Theologians have led me far far away from a biblical understanding of grace, faith, salvation, and assurance.

I don't say this flippantly. I used to love them a lot. I loved Calvinism and was influenced by a lot of Calvinist teaching.

But theres not one of them who get everything right and some of them are so off that its not cute or funny.

I was lied to about so many things, that I just try to know the Scriptures for myself. Otherwise, theres just all kinds of attitudes and bias I can get and have gotten that are against what Jesus said.

I think I still love C.S Lewis. But I don't put his words at the same level as Jesus'.

 

[dev553344]

I get that you feel strongly about this. But the reason we get rid of sin isn't so we can feel better than others or reject our need for Jesus or crack a whip over ourselves.

The reason why we get rid of sin is so God can use us in the specific calling He has for us. So we can be vessels of honor.

I believe every one of us has good works prepared for us to do by God. We have a specific ministry and calling. But we have to be faithful in the little things first.

I would add to that about desiring sin to be removed from society in general so that we aren't cursed by God with destructions. The bible spells out that God destroys the wicked. And the book of revelation spells out Abaddon and Appolyon for that task so it didn't end with the new testament.

So while I am Christian, I don't want to be part of a society that gets partially destroyed by God which will undoubtedly affect me in negative ways. So I think it's important to stand up for righteousness in society.

 

[Wynona]

I honestly don't think people will achieve a sinless life in this life of ours. We all have sins of omission (not providing for the less fortunate in every circumstance perfectly). This is why daily confession and repentance and hearing the word of God is so necessary. I started a thread about that and what sin is: About sin, the commandments and humility before God. If your interested check it out.

Hey brother. Ill look into your thread. I don't know about this "sins of omission" idea but if you can back it up with Scripture, Ill change my opinion.

I don't actually care if people know they still have things to work on. I just think we should slow down before we speak directly against the Scriptures.

Weve gotten to the point to where the idea of getting rid of sin is hated and spoken against. But the Bible encourages us by the Spirit to put to death the deeds of the body. Not all sins are sins leading to death. But lets not be so quick to be the opposite of Jesus, who directly told people not to sin.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Glad you had a laugh, Seems you missed the context.

First you must define “context”.

Oops, you still haven’t defined “define”!

ROTFLOL!!

 

[dev553344]

Hey brother. Ill look into your thread. I don't know about this "sins of omission" idea but if you can back it up with Scripture, Ill change my opinion.

I don't actually care if people know they still have things to work on. I just think we should slow down before we speak directly against the Scriptures.

Weve gotten to the point to where the idea of getting rid of sin is hated and spoken against. But the Bible encourages us by the Spirit to put to death the deeds of the body. Not all sins are sins leading to death. But lets not be so quick to be the opposite of Jesus, who directly told people not to sin.

Thanks Wynona. I guess after studying the bible I have a different idea about what sin is. The bible spells out different reasons people will be cast into hell and die like in the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46) and Revelation (Revelation 21:8). Which are sins unto death clearly. So I spelled those out in that thread I created. People should be encouraged towards righteousness. Yes that is true. We should also be encouraged towards humility of our human nature as it relates to the perfected God and his almighty righteousness. And I think that leads to a need for a merciful and loving God and a savior Jesus the Christ. It also leads to a repentant soul. It's obvious that we can't save ourselves. But we should be providing works meet for repentance so that God will desire to save us. And that means obeying the written word of God.

 

[Taken]

There are some who claim it. And there are those who "sort of" claim it, but by parsing some sins to be "OK" and some to not be "OK". Which I completely disagree with.

Much love!

I claim to have been naturally born in SIN.
I claim to have SINNED Against God.
I claim my SIN Against God was DISBELIEF.
Yep, I was naturally born, NOT knowing OF God, and certainly NOT Believing IN WHAT (God) I did not Know, or Know OF.

I began Hearing OF God, I Learned OF God. I wanted to KNOW more.
(My individual Choosing, the same Any other Person can Choose or Not.)
Hearing more, Learning more, MORE Choices for me...(Same more choices for any other Person) to TRUST to BELIEVE ALL I was hearing and Learning ABOUT God.

Heard more, Learned more, CHOSE to TRUST, CHOSE to BELIEVE...
Learned more, OF Gods Offering of Forgiveness....OF WHAT?
...Of Having NOT Trusted, Of Having NOT Believe...AND?
...Then WHAT? More choices, (same as anyone else)...
...Confess to God My Trust, My absolute Belief...IN Him.
...And “my consequences”, for My Choices?
...Gods Blessings, Gods True Knowledge, Gods Forgiveness, Gods Gifts, Gods Understanding of His Knowledge, Gods Power of Keeping of me WITH Him forever.

... Do I ever AGAIN SIN? No.
... IS that ^ accredited to me, my ability, my power, my hoping, etc.?
No.
... Me SINNING, no more, IS Because of Gods Grace to have Forgiven my sin Against God.
... Me SINNING, no more, IS Because of Gods Power to KEEP me FROM ever again, Committing Sin Against God.

Do other men, CONFUSE, CLAIM, ACCUSE, that Forgiven SIN, means:
Have never Sinned, Has no Sin, Is Sinless? Yes.
Does what other men SAY, CLAIM, ACCUSE, affect me? No.

I fully comprehend, FORGIVEN SIN, MEANS: Sin Against God occurred, was confessed and was By, Through, Of the Lord God Himself; Forgiven.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

First you must define “context”.

Oops, you still haven’t defined “define”!

ROTFLOL!!

What is up with you? Do you require the Definition of “Define” and “Context” to be given you?

Define - to set forth the meaning of a word
Context - specifically, the entire text or connected structure of a discourse or writing.

Still confused?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

What is up with you? Do you require the Definition of “Define” and “Context” to be given you?

I wonder the same question regarding your requirement of definitions…

 

[Taken]

I wonder the same question regarding your requirement of definitions…

The Context is Scripture.

 

[Lambano]

What is up with you? Do you require the Definition of “Define” and “Context” to be given you?

“It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is." - William Jefferson Clinton.

 

[Taken]

“It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is." - William Jefferson Clinton.

Laughable!

Billy is a lying, cheating, underhanded, backroom conniver...with a seemingly friendly personality in general conversation.
Hilly is a lying, cheating, underhanded, backroom conniver...with a hateful spiteful unpleasant personality.

 

[Lambano]

Theologians have led me far far away from a biblical understanding of grace, faith, salvation, and assurance.

I don't say this flippantly. I used to love them a lot. I loved Calvinism and was influenced by a lot of Calvinist teaching.

But theres not one of them who get everything right and some of them are so off that its not cute or funny.

Of course. But I can't take the attitude, "None of the faithful men and women in the last 2000 years who have studied the Bible and lived faithful lives could possibly have any wisdom or insight that I might find useful".

Except when chatting on an internet forum. Then I assume all wisdom begins and ends with me.

I'm kidding, I'm kidding! Well, kind of.

 

[Taken]

Theologians have led me far far away from a biblical understanding of grace, faith, salvation, and assurance.

I don't say this flippantly. I used to love them a lot. I loved Calvinism and was influenced by a lot of Calvinist teaching.

But theres not one of them who get everything right and some of them are so off that its not cute or funny.

I was lied to about so many things, that I just try to know the Scriptures for myself. Otherwise, theres just all kinds of attitudes and bias I can get and have gotten that are against what Jesus said.

I think I still love C.S Lewis. But I don't put his words at the same level as Jesus'.

Best to DO, as Jesus says. Come to Him as a little child. Little children are not exposed to umpteen commentators telling them their opinions.
Little children Come to Him, hearing, reading His Word, and THEN pray to Him ASKING Him for His Understanding of His own Words.
* There via that method is an individual content with his belief...
(VOID of all the “man made name tags groups” that evolve having umpteen different beliefs within the groups.)

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I want to answer this question with only Scripture.


1 Peter 4:1-3

Therefore, since Christ suffered [a]for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.


1 John 3:6

6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.


1 Corinthians 15:34

34 Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.


Can we be perfect?


Matthew 5:48

48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.


Genesis 6:9

9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, [a]perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.


Hebrews 6:1

6 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to [a]perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,


John 17:23

23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.


Colossians 1:28

28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.


Colossians 3:14

14 But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection.


James 1:4

But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be [a]perfect and complete, lacking nothing.


1 John 2:5

5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God [a]is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.


Revelation 3:2

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works

Spiritually we have been perfected, washed but we still have our flesh where sin dwells. We have moments of perfection when we are doing God's will, the task that He has prepared for us to do and so His will, His plan is accomplished through us perfectly. He has factored our mistakes and failures into His plan and they are obviously not moments of perfection.
Our perfected spirits separate from our flesh at death and we go to be with Christ white as snow.
Walk in the Spirit and you live perfectly. But the moments of backsliding, in selfishness, we fail.

Peter denied (lied about) knowing Jesus 3x to save himself - that was not perfect.
Did King David live perfectly? He sent out Uriah to the front lines of battle to be killed so he could have Bathsheba.
King Solomon became wise after doing everything wrong first. He had to experience life, everything under the sun, before he realized that life is vanity of vanities and chasing after the wind without God.
I don't love everyone perfectly, my enemies for sure, I just experience selective moments of perfection that God has prepared for me. When you are there at the right time and you are a blessing to person in some way, giving them exactly what they needed, it's perfect. When God works through you, it's perfect. It's just not happening 24/7 ... with me anyways. Billy Graham lived closer to perfection, Mother Teresa too.

 

[Wrangler]

I just experience selective moments of perfection that God has prepared for me.

Same experience here. A common denominator I've found is when I act without my ego, I am aligned with God. When my self-interest drives my actions - such as in reaction to my enemies - I find I tend to not reflect God's glory.

 

[Wynona]

Of course. But I can't take the attitude, "None of the faithful men and women in the last 2000 years who have studied the Bible and lived faithful lives could possibly have any wisdom or insight that I could possibly find useful".

Except when chatting on an internet forum. Then I assume all wisdom begins and ends with me.

I'm kidding, I'm kidding! Well, kind of.

There is a balance for sure. We can be edified and encouraged by faith Christian's wisdom. We just have to test everything by the Word of God.

 

[Lambano]

I forgot this one:

“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes! (Matthew 18:7)

Now Wynona, don't you let me discourage you. If my pointing out that stumbling blocks are inevitable causes you to get discouraged and quit trying, I get fitted for a millstone necktie. (Immediately preceding verse, Matthew 18:6) And I never did like neckties. Now I only wear 'em for weddings and funerals.

 

[quietthinker]

I forgot this one:

“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes! (Matthew 18:7)

Now Wynona, don't you let me discourage you. If my pointing out that stumbling blocks are inevitable causes you to get discouraged and quit trying, I get fitted for a millstone necktie. (Immediately preceding verse, Matthew 18:6) And I never did like neckties. Now I only wear 'em for weddings and funerals.

ahhhhh....what a drag!

 

[Bob Estey]

I want to answer this question with only Scripture.


1 Peter 4:1-3

Therefore, since Christ suffered [a]for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.


1 John 3:6

6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.


1 Corinthians 15:34

34 Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.


Can we be perfect?


Matthew 5:48

48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.


Genesis 6:9

9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, [a]perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.


Hebrews 6:1

6 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to [a]perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,


John 17:23

23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.


Colossians 1:28

28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.


Colossians 3:14

14 But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection.


James 1:4

But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be [a]perfect and complete, lacking nothing.


1 John 2:5

5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God [a]is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.


Revelation 3:2

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works

As you stated, Jesus said we need to be perfect, as our Father in heaven is perfect (Matthew 5:48), so yes, we can stop sinning and be perfect.

 

[amadeus]

As you stated, Jesus said we need to be perfect, as our Father in heaven is perfect (Matthew 5:48), so yes, we can stop sinning and be perfect.

Indeed, how much like him can we be?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2